ForumHandsome Girl and Sheltered Girl discussion

joined Jul 26, 2016

A little bird told me that there are actual lesbians out there that denigrate those among us here who apply top/bottom labels to lesbians such as Kanda and Ookuma, considering such people to be "morons". Apparently these women are somehow arrogant enough to believe that they can speak on behalf of the entire lesbian community around the world without conducting anything remotely qualifiable as a statistically valid survey.

I quite like the sarcasm here.

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joined Jul 1, 2015

Kanda, Ookuma, and Satomi, my favorite throuple

joined Mar 19, 2020

Kanda, Ookuma, and Satomi, my favorite throuple

Best throuple for sure.

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joined Jan 22, 2015

I hate the "drunk after one beer" trope, because no one gets like that after one beer, but hey ho.

You can't be serious. I've known several people who get drunk that easily, including my first college roommate.

Aaaand it’s an excuse to behave badly as they can later blame it on the booze. It’s all psychosomatic, so pass the placebo!

No, it's not--some people can't metabolize alcohol properly and can get shit-faced, lost-memory drunk on a drink or two. I've known at least three people like that--one who could nurse a beer for hours and be mostly OK except for some slurred speech.

Couple things:
1) As mentioned above, some people truly are weak to alcohol. Had a college buddy who turned an alarming shade of red and needed assistance walking after one Long Island.
2) Tolerance is a thing. When I started drinking, a couple Mike's put me under. Now I guzzle Bell's Two-Hearted.
3) There is this misconception that all beers are weak. They are not. Every brewery I've visited has at least one brew that exceeds 20% ABV. I've personally seen as high as 35% ABV, and a quick inquiry on Google-sama shows that in 2013 the world's strongest beer was 67.5% ABV.
Bottom line, unless you know what beer someone is drinking, don't assume it's a Budweiser (5% ABV).

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joined Feb 18, 2018

I think its time for dynasty to classify the comments per chapter, not in one room for the whole chapters,, its kinda hard to follow up and see what people's thoughts like this

joined Jan 14, 2020

https://hiconsumption.com/the-10-strongest-beers-in-the-world-will-get-you-drunk-fast/ says the strongest naturally fermented beer is 29% (still a lot higher than I expected); the stronger beers are freeze-distilled to remove water.

Not everyone has that much experience with alcohol. Especially on a site where a large chunk of the population.is under age 19.

What makes you think that? I'd of guessed the averge age on the site was over 30, tho maybe that is coloured by me being ancient lol.

https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/topics/15346-dynasty-specific-demographic-survey

Unclear to me if it surveyed website posters or just Discord; there might be a selection bias.

"Large chunk" is still a minority, though most of the respondents are 26 or younger.

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joined May 14, 2017

So Kanda actually got two girl

Main girl Ookuma and side chick Satomi

I see

Captureefef
joined Mar 16, 2018

I reread this series and I have to say I like it even more now since i could read it in one go and not have to wait until next month to find out if she was finally gonna fucking tell her

joined Mar 25, 2020

I think its time for dynasty to classify the comments per chapter, not in one room for the whole chapters,, its kinda hard to follow up and see what people's thoughts like this

THIS

11973
joined Nov 14, 2014

Damn the "quality" of their relationship was worth all the wait! xD

(y)
joined Jan 9, 2017

I think its time for dynasty to classify the comments per chapter, not in one room for the whole chapters,, its kinda hard to follow up and see what people's thoughts like this

Look at the dates

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joined Feb 23, 2016

Well shit.. that was spicyy ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

last edited at Sep 3, 2020 7:38AM

(y)
joined Jan 9, 2017

It be like that, to each their own. I think labels are dumb, but they sure fun to use.

Same

Roar%20small
joined Dec 18, 2013

Once the "Ookuma doesn't realize Kanda is a girl" gag was dropped, the series improved significantly. And the reveal about Ookuma having a top alter was amazing and hilarious, amazingly hilarious if you will. This is now of my favorite series now.

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joined Jul 19, 2018

A little bird told me that there are actual lesbians out there that denigrate those among us here who apply top/bottom labels to lesbians such as Kanda and Ookuma, considering such people to be "morons". Apparently these women are somehow arrogant enough to believe that they can speak on behalf of the entire lesbian community around the world without conducting anything remotely qualifiable as a statistically valid survey.

By that same token those who like to label people as "tops" or "bottoms" are just as arrogant to assume they also speak for the entire gay community.

As a rule of thumb if you want to label yourself "top" or "bottom" and somebody gives you shit for it, they can go screw themselves, but conversely if you try to label somebody else with those terms and they find it offensive then you're the one that needs to shut the Hell up.

It's a bit like the crux of the whole transgender debate. It comes down to simple manners that you should not refer to someone in a manner they find derogatory unless it is your intent to spit in their face at which point you shouldn't be surprised when things go terribly wrong afterwards.

last edited at Sep 3, 2020 10:55PM

joined Aug 29, 2019

By that same token those who like to label people as "tops" or "bottoms" are just as arrogant to assume they also speak for the entire gay community.

I don't follow? If individual Y asserts that individual X is top or bottom, it is usually in reference to a current situation ("X is topping here") or general observable pattern ("X apparently likes to top"/"X is top"). The "label" is applied to individual X, not any group of people, by individual Y, speaking for him/herself, not for any kind of group unless specified otherwise or spoken in a representative function.
Thus I really don't get the notion that "those people" assume they are speaking "for the entire gay community" in any sense. They are not talking about a group, nor do they represent a group. Furthermore, the "Top/Bot"-dynamic exists regardless of sexuality, and the categories aren't to be seen as prescriptive/restrictive, but descriptive of patterns and tendencies.
Case in point, though: It is explicitly stated that Kanda directed their first sexual interactions (https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/handsome_girl_and_sheltered_girl_ch11#18), so the assertion that Kanda is probably a top is not exactly unreasonable or far-fetched, although we have only a limited dataset to draw conclusions from. The assumption that Ookuma is a "natural bottom", on the other hand, is not only based on her usual behaviour as "going with the flow" and her apparently letting Kanda be in charge in the sexual encounters we'd seen before chapter 12. She seems to be topping in Ch. 12, which coincides with an alcohol-induced personality flip and is portrayed as something atypical, out-of-character for her. The assessment that this was something exceptional further reinforces the idea that Ookuma is usually a bottom.

And now please tell me how I said anything about any group of people (>2) or representing any group of people.

As a rule of thumb if you want to label yourself "top" or "bottom" and somebody gives you shit for it, they can go screw themselves, but conversely if you try to label somebody else with those terms and they find it offensive then you're the one that needs to shut the Hell up.

Mind you we're not technically labelling people here. We are applying attributes to fictional characters based on observed "behaviour".
Also if someone "finds it offensive" that they're being labeled "wrongly" they need to take a deep breath and be ready to explain why they think the label was applied wrongly, because there's probably a good reason why the "incorrect" label appeared applicable to the other. You're not required to "shut the hell up" because someone's offended, but you should absolutely question what you said and why it was perceived as offensive, and maybe reevaluate your stance based on new information. The truth sometimes offends, so instead of "shut the hell up" I'd recommend finding out what actually went wrong.

It's a bit like the crux of the whole transgender debate. It comes down to simple manners that you should not refer to someone in a manner they find derogatory unless it is your intent to spit in their face at which point you shouldn't be surprised when things go terribly wrong afterwards.

I agree insofar that the "intent to exclusively offend" is where I no longer see the need to protect an utterance as "free speech". This is different from being provocative and cheeky in order to drive forward a debate or make a point. I don't think the serious parts of the "trans" debate revolve around preferred pronouns anymore, though.

last edited at Sep 4, 2020 6:49AM

joined Jul 26, 2016

The fundamental issue is that people discussing this kind of stuff in practice - also routinely here - tend to use such labels as prescriptive rather than descriptive.

They're also wont to throw hissy fits when such obsessive categorization gets called out.

joined Aug 29, 2019

The fundamental issue is that people discussing this kind of stuff in practice - also routinely here - tend to use such labels as prescriptive rather than descriptive.

Making sense of the world is fun, though. I agree, prescriptive use of labels in discussion of observations is generally silly.

Just to be sure we're not having a terminological misunderstanding:

  • When I say "prescriptive" I mean "if you're A then you automatically must X, Y and Z, and if not you definitely should"

  • when I say "descriptive" I mean "I see you show X, Y and Z patterns, thus it appears you are B."

  • Descriptive and prescriptive use should also be separated from the normative function of classification, which is a somewhat unfortunate consequence of either that cannot be completely avoided. The normative aspect would be "I see you show X, Y and Z patterns, thus it appears you are B. It therefore seems likely that you're also α, β and γ."

Labels, like any cliché or stereotype, can serve as guidelines and blueprints in the creation of relatable, cohesive characters, and in that function they would be somewhat prescriptive. It also makes a nice basis for throwing curveball attributes into the mix that break with the stereotype.

For the manga in question we don't really have many data points to base our assessments on, and while what we've been shown and told does paint a certain picture, it's all up for debate and can be upturned by future developments. I'd say that potential ambiguity makes speculating and debate a bit more interesting.

last edited at Sep 4, 2020 11:42AM

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joined Dec 9, 2014

Labels are not evil. Top and bottom is a very common descriptive word for gay couples and most have no problem using them. Unless someone specifically asks you to, then why make an issue about it? Especially with fictional characters like here.

In yuri, top/bottom can be more blurred, so their use is more general. Like when someone gets called a top, that's used to describe their typical or most common behavior, it doesn't mean they have to be a top literally all the time.

joined Jul 26, 2016

Crude, stereotyped pigeonholing is bad though - and that tends to be what such labels in practice get used for in online discussions at least.

Internet audiences tend to be abysmal at things like "nuance" and grasping that human behaviour is generally a context-dependent spectrum.

joined Aug 29, 2019

Crude, stereotyped pigeonholing is bad though - and that tends to be what such labels in practice get used for in online discussions at least.

Internet audiences tend to be abysmal at things like "nuance" and grasping that human behaviour is generally a context-dependent spectrum.

Interesting. That's not the impression I so far got on this forum. People seem to be relatively open-minded here.

joined Jul 26, 2016

"Relatively" being the operative word. This bunch is better than most but by no means immune to blinkered pigeonholing and cockeyed shoehorning.

joined Jul 26, 2016

...actually looking at the thread backlog a bit, weren't you yourself involved in a debate about a different set of labels and their application some four-five pages back Zor?

joined Aug 29, 2019

...actually looking at the thread backlog a bit, weren't you yourself involved in a debate about a different set of labels and their application some four-five pages back Zor?

Indeed, albeit just a very short exchange without much back and forth and disagreement. Doesn't get more civilized than that I think.

The more difficult discussions happened on "So, do you want to go out, or?"

last edited at Sep 4, 2020 1:20PM

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joined Dec 9, 2014

Personally I've literally never seen anyone using the word top/bottom in a yuri work in the rigid way. Most people know the nature of the yuri dynamic is more versatile and use them accordingly, or in a humorous way like "wow surprised Ookuma toped Kanda! She was such a bottom"
The only times where it becomes more absolute is in yaoi, where the nature of the act does indeed require more rigid roles to begin with.

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