Perhaps I should have just said "Not Cis". But I suppose I have my guard up from past experiences, but this will probably be fine

Woah, this chapter was really relatable. Can't wait for more and thanks for the translation.

Based on the narration around matsuri having two jobs im wondering if she got saddled with debt during her divorce or something

damn that page 12 sure goes hard

That was the most nonplussed stegosaurus I've ever seen.

._.

I'm wondering if Ren smokes that much to make the voice deeper.

Past trauma, and the girl who helped her overcome it. ^_^

And what a way to make half the people here feel bad, seeing how people pushing the idea that she might be trans, whichever way, was exactly the problem here...

last edited at May 12, 2025 4:44PM

luinthoron posted:

Past trauma, and the girl who helped her overcome it. ^_^

And what a way to make half the people here feel bad, seeing how people pushing the idea that she might be trans, whichever way, was exactly the problem here...

^This.

Based on the narration around matsuri having two jobs im wondering if she got saddled with debt during her divorce or something

Same. And I'm wondering if it has something to do with her child too.

Nobody was pushing anything, only suggesting that could be the case, especially when being forced to act in that gendered way and suffering deeply because of it is an experience many trans people share.
Especially with a scene like this this, come on. Those characters aren't "pushing her to be trans", they're treating her as an other for not living up to womanhood, which nobody here did when they implied to share a similar struggle with her and relate as a trans person.

Especially with a scene like this this, come on. Those characters aren't "pushing her to be trans", they're treating her as an other for not living up to womanhood, which nobody here did when they implied to share a similar struggle with her and relate as a trans person.

That scene, less so. Some of the quotes here, though...

Nobody was pushing anything, only suggesting that could be the case, especially when being forced to act in that gendered way and suffering deeply because of it is an experience many trans people share.
Especially with a scene like this this, come on. Those characters aren't "pushing her to be trans", they're treating her as an other for not living up to womanhood, which nobody here did when they implied to share a similar struggle with her and relate as a trans person.

Nobody was pushing anything, only suggesting that could be the case, especially when being forced to act in that gendered way and suffering deeply because of it is an experience many trans people share.
Especially with a scene like this this, come on. Those characters aren't "pushing her to be trans", they're treating her as an other for not living up to womanhood, which nobody here did when they implied to share a similar struggle with her and relate as a trans person.

Just "suggesting that could be the case" is exactly what made Ren suffer in the first place. It's the constant noise around her about defining who she is. Whether it's girl, boy, trans, or non-binary, it looks like after puberty, Ren was constantly surrounded by static noise about putting her in a little box, how she should act, or not, or even ask if she'd considered GRS.

That's what the spread pages 12-13 expresses : Ren is fed up and just wants the noise to stop.

So that's why Matsuri's cheerfully babbling away about random stuff and NOT about her gender/sexuality or whatever was like music to her and made the noise stop for a time. That's what she means when she says Matsuri created a world where she could be herself. By never trying to fit her in a little box, but just being the friend of "Ren".

And unsurprisingly, there's also a lot of noise around here from people trying to say Ren is trans or whatever, trying to put a label on her. People invested in the "alternative sexualities/gender" communities, which are numerous around here, tend to want to put labels on everyone. But some people don't want to be labeled. She's Ren, not a label and these people would probably hurt her too, even if not out of malice.

I think there's a big difference between someone speculating/analysing how a series handles gender identity via their own personal interpretation of a character's identity and someone nagging a real person about the same topic.

last edited at May 13, 2025 9:23AM

It's fair not to want to be labeled and there is a lot to be discussed when it comes to labels themselves and how they affect how others interact with us and us with them (and I believe Urasekai Picnic is a great work for those interested in this topic), I myself do not want labels and only describe myself as non-binary in relevant contexts... but again, there's a very big difference between the people on this thread saying they relate to the character and that for that reason they may be trans nb in a way that's supposed to be freeing rather than constricting, since they struggled similarly before with the stress of not properly living up to anything, and the characters in the work itself that are not merely suggesting that she's trans, but instead actively treating her as less and like she's going through a phase for not fitting with either category of man or woman.

And really, the characters aren't just suggesting things but quietly demanding it out of her, so why would the mentions of X-gender within those thoughts be seen as positive suggestions or even comparable to the few posts in this thread about her gender? All of it is in a judgemental tone, pressuring her to pick something already, and that something being a woman. Why would the characters want her to be trans when they push her back to being a girl whenever they get the chance to? It's more like making fun of her.

That scene, less so. Some of the quotes here, though...

Which is why I consider those to still apply to the same struggle. She's a "failure" in the middle of it. It just doesn't make much sense to me to be comparing people who are only saying "Hey, she might be the same as me! I understand her struggles." with characters that are a constant pressure in her life. And if it turns out that she wants no terms for herself or to come up with something of her own, that's fine too and cool. Until there's something more solid regarding that it's completely okay for others to say those things just like how it is to say that she may not want any labels at all. Which, by the way, I don't even disagree with, but it's unnecessary to be averse to the idea that she could turn out to be trans nb this early in the story.

I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense, I don't really have the energy to write anything elaborate.

I think there's a big difference between someone speculating/analysing how a series handles gender identity via their own personal interpretation of a character's identity and someone nagging a real person about the same topic.

100% this. These pages are in the story because the artist wanted to make it clear that Ren has a difficult relationship with her own gender, either personally or socially. Reader speculation about that, especially trans posters highlighting Ren as going through an experience they recognize, is not causing anyone harm.

I would also argue that the harm being done in story isn't that Ren's gender is being questioned. We don't live in a world where the vast majority of reactions to expressing discomfort with gender is the entire weight of culture saying "holy shit go get HRT and SRS immediately." The actual harm from questioning someone's gender is when it's framed in a way that makes it clear to that person they don't fit in and never will. Ren is suicidal specifically because she "doesn't fit in", and these pages make it clear a lot of that feeling is based in her relationship to her body and how people talk about not meeting whatever gendered standard they expect of her. She's not suicidal because someone suggested she's trans a little too insistently, she's suicidal from an adulthood being treated like an outsider.

This whole line of discussion is functionally the "polite" way of erasing trans experiences from the conversation. Violent cisheteronormative enforcement of gender standards, good-faith questions to someone who might be struggling with gender identity, and reader speculation about a character's gender identity in a story with gender themes are not equally harmful. Treating them like they are creates the perception that pointing out a trans or trans-adjacent experience is rude and potentially damaging to a person. Isolating those experiences from transness and then reframing them as something else entirely is how cisheteronormativity operates.

Nobody was pushing anything, only suggesting that could be the case, especially when being forced to act in that gendered way and suffering deeply because of it is an experience many trans people share.
Especially with a scene like this this, come on. Those characters aren't "pushing her to be trans", they're treating her as an other for not living up to womanhood, which nobody here did when they implied to share a similar struggle with her and relate as a trans person.

Nobody was pushing anything, only suggesting that could be the case, especially when being forced to act in that gendered way and suffering deeply because of it is an experience many trans people share.
Especially with a scene like this this, come on. Those characters aren't "pushing her to be trans", they're treating her as an other for not living up to womanhood, which nobody here did when they implied to share a similar struggle with her and relate as a trans person.

Just "suggesting that could be the case" is exactly what made Ren suffer in the first place. It's the constant noise around her about defining who she is. Whether it's girl, boy, trans, or non-binary, it looks like after puberty, Ren was constantly surrounded by static noise about putting her in a little box, how she should act, or not, or even ask if she'd considered GRS.

That's what the spread pages 12-13 expresses : Ren is fed up and just wants the noise to stop.

So that's why Matsuri's cheerfully babbling away about random stuff and NOT about her gender/sexuality or whatever was like music to her and made the noise stop for a time. That's what she means when she says Matsuri created a world where she could be herself. By never trying to fit her in a little box, but just being the friend of "Ren".

And unsurprisingly, there's also a lot of noise around here from people trying to say Ren is trans or whatever, trying to put a label on her. People invested in the "alternative sexualities/gender" communities, which are numerous around here, tend to want to put labels on everyone. But some people don't want to be labeled. She's Ren, not a label and these people would probably hurt her too, even if not out of malice.

This might be one of the most exhaustive attempts at "I don't want to see trans people in media but still want to appear progressive" I've seen. The idea that anyone has ever been pressured into being trans is pure TERF fantasy.

This might be one of the most exhaustive attempts at "I don't want to see trans people in media but still want to appear progressive" I've seen. The idea that anyone has ever been pressured into being trans is pure TERF fantasy.

This seems like a gross misrepresentation of the entire conversation here. Quite the opposite, more representation for any minorities, including trans, can only be a good thing. Even if experience shows that especially with manga it's always smarter to expect more traditional characters and be pleasantly surprised when they turn out to be different, rather than expect a character to be trans, ace, aro, etc. and be disappointed when this turns out to be not the case. But in this particular case, people in the story have specifically caused this girl a lot of pain exactly because they have questioned her identity mostly based on her more androgynous looks. If I may have come across as accusing the commenters of the manga of doing the same, I apologize, my point was only that the events of this chapter may have made some of them feel like they've been doing the same as the people in the story.

last edited at May 14, 2025 9:10AM

This might be one of the most exhaustive attempts at "I don't want to see trans people in media but still want to appear progressive" I've seen. The idea that anyone has ever been pressured into being trans is pure TERF fantasy.

This seems like a gross misrepresentation of the entire conversation here. Quite the opposite, more representation for any minorities, including trans, can only be a good thing. Even if experience shows that especially with manga it's always smarter to expect more traditional characters and be pleasantly surprised when they turn out to be different, rather than expect a character to be trans, ace, aro, etc. and be disappointed when this turns out to be not the case. But in this particular case, people in the story have specifically caused this girl a lot of pain exactly because they have questioned her identity mostly based on her more androgynous looks. If I may have come across as accusing the commenters of the manga of doing the same, I apologize, my point was only that the events of this chapter may have made some of them feel like they've been doing the same as the people in the story.

Sorry bud, wasn't having a go at you, just Brains "trans is just a label and nonbinary people can be cis actually" Genius here. You cannot convince me anyone who says ""alternative sexualities/gender communities" is arguing in good faith

last edited at May 14, 2025 10:25AM

inRemote posted:
Sorry bud, wasn't having a go at you, just Brains "trans is just a label and nonbinary people can be cis actually" Genius here. You cannot convince me anyone who says ""alternative sexualities/gender communities" is arguing in good faith

Still a bad faith gross misrepresentation

My point wasn't that "trans people don't exist" or "trans people should stay out of media", just that in this particular instance, Ren just doesn't conform to what's expected of her gender and immediately people, in and out-universe, try to put a label on her, whether trans, enby, or something, which is EXACTLY what makes the character suffer in the first place.

Ren is Ren. Not a flag.

last edited at May 14, 2025 11:04AM

inRemote posted:
Sorry bud, wasn't having a go at you, just Brains "trans is just a label and nonbinary people can be cis actually" Genius here. You cannot convince me anyone who says ""alternative sexualities/gender communities" is arguing in good faith

Still a bad faith gross misrepresentation

My point wasn't that "trans people don't exist" or "trans people should stay out of media", just that in this particular instance, Ren just doesn't conform to what's expected of her gender and immediately people, in and out-universe, try to put a label on her, whether trans, enby, or something, which is EXACTLY what makes the character suffer in the first place.

Ren is Ren. Not a flag.

Ren is a fictional character and subject to intepretation/literary analysis bud, you don't need to protect her feelings

We aren't "a flag" either and you're the one reducing those experiences to a label or image.

You're taking issue with posts of people simply wondering if she's the same as them because of how similar her struggles are to theirs, and, again, acting like it's the same as those memories of people denying her being anything, mocking her for not living up to their own idea of womanhood while they pressure her into it and maliciously othering her when they bring up x-gender.
Which are all things trans people struggle with, no matter if they're binary or non-binary, and I don't see how suggesting that a character may be trans (meaning there are other people who share her troubles and she isn't as unfit to exist as she thinks she is) is the same as the setting mocking and shoving her into a box.

If we're going to act like those posts weigh the same as the characters' words, then how is "Hey you might be just like me, so you're not struggling with this alone, you're not the problem and there is something you may find comfort in." the same as "You're weird and I can't tell if you're a boy or a girl, also you should just settle for being a girl and stop with that, grow up lol, freak."?

i love this manga i’m glad this comment section is totally fine

Ren's drawings are so cute!!! The animals are so cutesy, I hope they make a manga with animals!

"Pale blue-green color saudade" is a mouthful. Wouldn't "Turquoise-colored saudade" work better?

"Pale blue-green color saudade" is a mouthful. Wouldn't "Turquoise-colored saudade" work better?

This is how the author (or editor) subtitled it in English.

You should apply and show them how it's done.