At first the Erika hate seemed to come from people reading her negative self talk and taking it seriously rather than her being mean to herself for being in love with Koto and feeling pathetic because of it, but it's clearly grown far beyond that because we didn't even get any negative self talk from her this chapter and yet somehow she still got read as an evil schemer with ulterior motives. Although claiming this fight is none of her business when Koto and Aya both specifically reached out to her for help with this conflict might take the cake as the most baffling read. How dare she agree to help her friends when her friends specifically ask her for help

The bizarre ways people read Erika based on their hatred of her is fascinating. Aya shows up on her doorstep asking her for help and so Erika begrudgingly tries to help by talking Aya through her feelings, but somehow this is none of her business and her telling Aya what to think lol. Let's just completely ignore the entire arc of the chapter showing that Erika's advice to Aya, which Aya specifically sought out, has led her in a positive looking direction. Nah she's evil somehow lol.
Same with reading Erika's reaction to Aya's dejavu as "alarm" when we already know that Erika had a conversation with Aya that Aya doesn't remember. My read on her reaction is "oh right, damn I'd almost forgotten there's a supernatural element to this plot that we'll probably need to deal with".
Hell, I wouldn't even read Erika's actions as at all selfish this chapter. She's consistently shown nothing but care for Aya and wanting to help her, and her advice is not remotely the kind of advice you'd give to someone fighting with a partner if you want that relationship to end. She tells Aya to think more and learn more about Koto instead of going "wow she sounds like a yandere you should stay away from her or you'll end up chained up in some basement" or something. Koto's actions last chapter were genuinely VERY concerning, Erika wouldn't even necessarily be in the wrong if she told Aya she's potentially in danger. Koto wanting to cut Aya off from the world and from having agency is a huge red flag. But she instead takes a moderate low-intervention path to help her two friends in their time of need while feeling bad about herself and that's just so evil I guess

You would possibly be right if Erika wasn't in love with Koto. Since she does, it just make me so uncomfortable.
The situation is like, one of their (Koto and Erika) common friend who always has a thing for Erika goes tell Koto "You already know Erika's feelings right？How about you decide to accept it or not？"
You know what l mean？

Tbh, l don't care to be called Erika hater. While loving Aya the most and Koto as my second favorite, l literally feel nothing towards Erika. No love. No hate. Just nothing. I really do hope l can somehow like her to further enjoy this manga. However, l can't control how l feel.

last edited at Aug 2, 2024 8:53AM

You would possibly right if Erika wasn't in love with Koto. Since she does, it just make me so uncomfortable.
The situation is like, one of their (Koto and Erika) common friend who always has a thing for Erika goes tell Koto "You already know Erika's feelings right？How about you decide to accept it or not？"
You know what l mean？

Tbh, l don't care to be called Erika hater. While loving Aya the most and Koto as my second favorite, l literally feel nothing towards Erika. No love. No hate. Just nothing. I really do hope l can somehow like her to further enjoy this manga. However, l can't control how l feel.

Koto asked Erika out and Erika turned her down, knowing the relationship would be unhappy. She's not some mindless obsessed love slave, she's just got some lingering feelings for Koto, and she has never chosen to pursue those feelings at the expense of anyone else. We see her do the exact same kind of thing this chapter: Rather than telling Aya "run before she hobbles you like in Misery" she tells her "think about how you feel about her in the present, if you truly love her" and then gives her a photo album. She's neither doomsaying nor papering over the major flaw in their relationship, she's giving Aya the best possible tools for her to look at that flaw and judge it accurately.

Honestly, I've seen people hating on both Erika and Koto and being obsessed with convincing other people how horrible people they are. It's indeed not that kind of story, and while I do enjoy the debate and the passionate discussions happening around that title, I can't help but think that people hating so much some flawed but understandable characters must have problem(s) themselves... That much hate is definitely not healthy and and doesn't look good on them...

That being said, a while ago, Kabocha posted a drawing on their Pixiv fanbox, and the comment was interesting.

They said, about Aya, on the drawing:
"The line drawing was posted on twitter previously, and when my editor saw it, he said "the reason she has her hand tucked into her pocket might be because there are so many thing she is hiding". I thought it was a good setting, so I went with it. "

I think so far the story is a bit unbalanced, as we are seeing Aya struggling from her situation, but not really suffering or being traumatized by her situation like Erika and Koto are. She might be hiding something herself, though so far, we have no sign of that.

Can't wait to see what future chapters are holding! The manga was on pause during July, so publication will resume next week. The schedule also changed, as Kabocha was mentally drained, so it will be 2/3 of a chapter per month (instead of one chapter per month). Slower progress, but as long as they stay healthy, I'm happy with that.

Putting aside for a moment the great Tribunal to Determine the Worst Person and Then Castigate Them for Eternity, the person at the lowest point right now is Koto. Erika and Aya have outside activities and other people to talk to (not necessarily intimate heart-to-hearts, but basic human interaction), while Koto is spiraling into a very bad emotional place.

She has to know that cutting off Aya from everything else is a terrible idea for Aya personally and for their relationship, but the trauma of abandonment has her solidly in its grip, at least at the moment.

You would possibly right if Erika wasn't in love with Koto. Since she does, it just make me so uncomfortable.
The situation is like, one of their (Koto and Erika) common friend who always has a thing for Erika goes tell Koto "You already know Erika's feelings right？How about you decide to accept it or not？"
You know what l mean？

Tbh, l don't care to be called Erika hater. While loving Aya the most and Koto as my second favorite, l literally feel nothing towards Erika. No love. No hate. Just nothing. I really do hope l can somehow like her to further enjoy this manga. However, l can't control how l feel.

Koto asked Erika out and Erika turned her down, knowing the relationship would be unhappy. She's not some mindless obsessed love slave, she's just got some lingering feelings for Koto, and she has never chosen to pursue those feelings at the expense of anyone else.

Yes, she has not lost her control yet. But who knows how long that state can persist. Like this chapter l can fully feel her jealousy and even some hatred towards Aya. If this keeps going, l wouldn't be surprised one day Erika feels she have had it enough and decides to do something really bad, which would hurt both Aya and Koto in the end.

We see her do the exact same kind of thing this chapter: Rather than telling Aya "run before she hobbles you like in Misery" she tells her "think about how you feel about her in the present, if you truly love her" and then gives her a photo album. She's neither doomsaying nor papering over the major flaw in their relationship, she's giving Aya the best possible tools for her to look at that flaw and judge it accurately.

I am not saying this is not good for Aya. I am saying this is a betrayal of Koto's trust. Just like the example l gave you. You think Erika would be grateful for what their common friend did here？lf that so, why did it to the people you love？

last edited at Aug 2, 2024 10:39AM

Koto asked Erika out and Erika turned her down, knowing the relationship would be unhappy. She's not some mindless obsessed love slave, she's just got some lingering feelings for Koto, and she has never chosen to pursue those feelings at the expense of anyone else.

Yes, she has not lost her control yet. But who knows how long that state can persist. Like this chapter l can fully feel her jealousy and even some hatred towards Aya. If this keeps going, l wouldn't be surprised one day Erika feels she have had it enough and decides to do something really bad, which would hurt both Aya and Koto in the end.

This set of assertions consists of emotions projected onto the characters rather than on the evidence of the text itself, as well as speculations about things that have not happened and may never happen. In any case, it bears very little relation to the story that I have been reading.

If one thing is for sure, it's that Erika is still hiding some things and her actions are shrouded in suspicion since her avowed goal is to break the relationship between Aya and Koto.

Even if she doesn't actively try to break it, she passively allows it to deteriorate.

She's been by Koto's side for these 7 years of Aya absence and so she knows better than anyone what her state of mind is and what would eventually happen when Aya returns.

The fact she's been hiding all of this from Aya, not mentioning the fact that they did meet on Tanabata seven years ago, but she won't say it, even to Koto, shows she's not "anyone's great friend" and is ultimately driven by selfishness.

She's been pining for Koto for years, maybe she's the one who needs to move on.

Still unclear how the triangle will be broken though.

Even if she doesn't actively try to break it, she passively allows it to deteriorate.

Wait, although I have no interest in the “who is good/bad” debate, I don’t understand how Erika can be accused of “passively allowing” anything at all to happen to the Aya/Koto relationship.

Aya is insecure because she’s a young person out her time struggling to adjust to a disorienting situation; Koto is insecure and irrationally clingy because of the traumatic disappearance of Aya in the past.

Why does a third party, Erika, have any responsibility for proactively making the Aya/Koto relationship work, and how would she even go about attempting to do it? Koto’s destructive wish for Aya to have no outside life and Aya’s rejection of it has nothing to do with Erika or her feelings.

Even if she doesn't actively try to break it, she passively allows it to deteriorate.

Wait, although I have no interest in the “who is good/bad” debate, I don’t understand how Erika can be accused of “passively allowing” anything at all to happen to the Aya/Koto relationship.

Aya is insecure because she’s a young person out her time struggling to adjust to a disorienting situation; Koto is insecure and irrationally clingy because of the traumatic disappearance of Aya in the past.

Why does a third party, Erika, have any responsibility for proactively making the Aya/Koto relationship work, and how would she even go about attempting to do it? Koto’s destructive wish for Aya to have no outside life and Aya’s rejection of it has nothing to do with Erika or her feelings.

Well as their apparently dedicated couples' therapist, how else will she get paid?

How to break a triangle: everyone disappears and is never seen again. The end

Honestly if anything I would criticize Erika for being too soft on Koto in not reacting more negatively to what she pulled. I hope Erika's planning on holding an intervention for Koto next chapter. Pull her aside and go "seriously you cannot lock up your girlfriend and keep her away from the world, that's absolutely not okay" and make sure she gets it before letting Aya see her again.

For the record, this is 100% what I'm criticizing Erika for and I frankly think it's the worst thing she's done in this manga (so far) by a significant margin. Even if she holds an intervention for Koto next chapter (and frankly I doubt she will, I think she's too blinded by her love), that won't make up for the fact that she learned how Aya was the victim of emotional abuse and she refused to provide any emotional support whatsoever and instead went on the attack.

I've been thinking a bit more about this and I'm wondering if Erika's intense self-loathing is actually becoming something of a self-fulfilling prophecy and is somewhat making her into a worse person. There may be a sort of sunk cost fallacy happening for her: Erika thinks she's awful for being self-interested in an ordinary way, but because of that she feels like she has nothing to lose by continuing to be so jealous and resentful of Aya because, after all, she's already an awful person and she can't get more awful, right?

I think both Erika and Koto have failed to deal with their trauma from Aya's disappearance, but in diametrically opposite ways. While Koto spent these past 7 years dwelling in the past, unable or unwilling to move on, Erika I think moved on too much. On a surface level it almost seems as if she didn't grieve at all for Aya, but I feel like that can't be true. I think she's been repressing both her grief over Aya's apparent death and the guilt for whatever part she seems to have played in it (that conversation she had with her is surely going to be very important). Perhaps she's put so much of herself into her love for Koto precisely because that's how she can avoid the reality of what happened. And these two diametrically opposed yet equally maladaptive coping mechanisms have led them to become the people they are today: Koto, so consumed by abandonment trauma that she wants to lock Aya in her apartment, and Erika, throwing herself into a doomed one-sided love in an attempt to ignore the self-loathing she feels is a permanent part of her.

It's very interesting! Compared to them, Aya seems like a saint, but I wonder if she has her own crippling flaws we just haven't had a chance to see yet...

Blastaar posted:

Why does a third party, Erika, have any responsibility for proactively making the Aya/Koto relationship work, and how would she even go about attempting to do it? Koto’s destructive wish for Aya to have no outside life and Aya’s rejection of it has nothing to do with Erika or her feelings.

If she really loved Koto, she'd do anything to make her happy, no? If she doesn't, it's just selfish love. It's just "I want to win against Aya.", "I want Koto to love me and forget about Aya" (which is why she refused to go out with Koto).

Everything points to Erika having a MASSIVE inferiority complex towards Aya and wanting to win at all costs. I'm not even sure if she loves Koto or if she loves the idea of one-upping Aya by "stealing" Koto. The seven years of absence Aya only have exacerbated this, since you can't win against someone who's not here.

What she could have done is tell the truth of what actually happened between her and Aya seven years ago, that she saw them kissing (she said it in the end, but out of spite: "did you think you could hide it for me?") and so knew that they were dating seven years ago, and finally, last but not least, she could have told Aya how Koto had been these last seven years, so Aya would better handle the abandonment issues of Koto.

Granted, she doesn't have any obligation to do so. But then, I'm really not convinced her actions, or lack thereof, are out of love for Koto.

We dived into Aya's psyche, we dived into Koto's psyche, but we have yet to have a clear view of what's going on in Erika's head, besides that she wishes for Koto and Aya to break up and so have Koto for herself and win against Aya.

last edited at Aug 2, 2024 1:57PM

Man, you people sure must be all up in your friends’ business in a way I simply don’t recognize. I’ve had very close friends that were no less close than family, but when it came to their romantic relationships, I tried to be a listener and to supply what support and advice I was able, but that could include hard truths or criticism, too. In the end, their business was theirs.

There’s attributing responsibility here that makes little sense to me.

Blastaar posted:

Man, you people sure must be all up in your friends’ business in a way I simply don’t recognize. I’ve had very close friends that were no less close than family, but when it came to their romantic relationships, I tried to be a listener and to supply what support and advice I was able, but that could include hard truths or criticism, too. In the end, their business was theirs.

There’s attributing responsibility here that makes little sense to me.

Yeah, but you were not in love with these friends, were you? Or in rivalry with them.

Koto's and Aya's business are Erika's business and have been from the beginning.

The only real friend here was the drama club's president.

last edited at Aug 2, 2024 2:25PM

Blastaar posted:

Man, you people sure must be all up in your friends’ business in a way I simply don’t recognize. I’ve had very close friends that were no less close than family, but when it came to their romantic relationships, I tried to be a listener and to supply what support and advice I was able, but that could include hard truths or criticism, too. In the end, their business was theirs.

There’s attributing responsibility here that makes little sense to me.

Yeah, but you were not in love with these friends, were you? Or in rivalry with them.

Well, personally, sometimes yes and sometimes no. In any case, when two of them were in a relationship, that was on them, not me.

I'm so confused by the idea that Erika has been "on the attack," or is "letting their relationship deteriorate," she literally just helped Aya this chapter by giving her basically the only possible advice that could lead to their reconciling. They're both actively turning to her first thing when they need help throughout the series so far, more of a doormat than a third wheel at this point.

I'm so confused by the idea that Erika has been "on the attack," or is "letting their relationship deteriorate," she literally just helped Aya this chapter by giving her basically the only possible advice that could lead to their reconciling. They're both actively turning to her first thing when they need help throughout the series so far, more of a doormat than a third wheel at this point.

The first thing Erika says after Aya describes Koto's emotional abuse is "That one time in the library was your first time," dredging up a 7 year old grudge instead of addressing what Aya told her. She continues attacking Aya about it until Aya has her "deja vu" moment, at which point she appears to feel some guilt and stops. But she still doesn't actually address the main issue at question, and instead seems to be trying to convince her to just break up. I don't think this is bad advice in a vacuum, the problem is that Aya is currently in an abusive relationship and her only close friend in the world seems to have no interest in or desire to help(ing) her through it.

Breaking up with an abusive relationship seems like pretty decent advice. Koto was way over the top.

I'm so fed up with the comments that say users are attacking or hating a character even though they have explained pretty well why they are feeling that way.

I think l am not being especially harsh on Erika.
You can even see my previous post to get same conclusion that l hate Koto, which is really far away from the truth.

The only reason l haven't criticized Aya is she's not done anything wrong or skeptical worth to talk about.
I actually believe she has the most distorted personality out of the three since chapter 4.(well, l am gonna be Aya hater by some people's logic here now lol)

Breaking up with an abusive relationship seems like pretty decent advice. Koto was way over the top.

I actually don't see how the relationship between Koto and Aya is abusive. Sure, Koto selfishly WANTED Aya to be hers alone, but she hasn't actively trying to sabotage any of Aya's social relationship, right? And about what she said at the end of ch12, it was her emotion got better of herself, which made she said horrible things, not a move to manipulate Aya at all. If you are trying to make this person cut tie with her friends, telling her "cut tie with all your friends" is not the way to do it, everyone knows that, right?

If you are trying to make this person cut tie with her friends, telling her "cut tie with all your friends" is not the way to do it, everyone knows that, right?

No, as a matter of fact, not everyone does know that. Quite the contrary: the traditional way to make someone cut ties with their friends is to tell them, “cut ties with your friends,” as has been done by abusive partners since time immemorial.

It’s totally mincing words to argue that the Aya/Koto relationship hasn’t become abusive because Koto’s abusive desire hasn’t been put into practice yet.

It’s totally mincing words to argue that the Aya/Koto relationship hasn’t become abusive because Koto’s abusive desire hasn’t been put into practice yet.

Well, I think everyone has their selfish desires, what matters is whether you act on them. But if you don't think so, we can't come to any agreement, so let's just move on.

It’s totally mincing words to argue that the Aya/Koto relationship hasn’t become abusive because Koto’s abusive desire hasn’t been put into practice yet.

Well, I think everyone has their selfish desires, what matters is whether you act on them. But if you don't think so, we can't come to any agreement, so let's just move on.

But she did act on them; she didn't only think that she wanted to keep Aya to herself, she asked Aya to basically stop doing anything outside the house, because "she is lonely now" . Does "acting on her selfish desires" have to be to literally lock Aya inside the house? Saying that she is lonely and begging Aya not to interact with anyone else is emotional manipulation.

I don't even think she herself realizes it, she's just traumatized by her past loss, but that doesn't make her actions any better, even if it explains them.

Does "acting on her selfish desires" have to be to literally lock Aya inside the house? Saying that she is lonely and begging Aya not to interact with anyone else is emotional manipulation.

Of course, it doesn't have to be literally locking Aya inside, but I don't think what she said here is a tactic of emotional manipulation either. As you can see, Koto does have these selfish thoughts, and she is aware of how bad they are; that's why she tried to keep them to herself. However, when Aya kept asking what was wrong, Koto became so emotional that she couldn't hold it in anymore and let everything slip out. I see it as letting your emotions get the better of yourself, and because of that, you said what you weren't supposed to say. Of course it's a different story if Koto keep pulling this shit, but for now, I think saying that she abused Aya just from what she said when losing her composure is a bit unfair to her.

last edited at Aug 3, 2024 2:57PM