I am laughing so hard browsing through the whole thread. rosetammy25 really has a good sense of humor. I even want to be friends with you in real life.

last edited at Dec 31, 2024 11:45AM

You criticized me for getting into "dumb factionalism stuff," but what I meant is that the dumb factionalism stuff is causing some people (like Genevieve) to interpret Erika unfairly,

It's not like l wouldn't accept your accusation of my analysis of Erika is unfair due to "dumb factionalism stuff". But you have to point out which part of it you think is wrong and explain why makes you consider it truly unfair. I'm excited to have a debate with someone who seems like more clever than most of the people on this forum. Tbh, as clever person like the translator nearly never participate in the discussion is kinda boring.

And l notice Blastaar deleted his comment once again. Sigh. Just reminding me one of the reasons l don't want to discuss with him before.

Aya's maturity and self-assurance is a facade. She is a broken girl with deep-set abandonment issues who (in the past) literally -- albeit semi-unconsciously -- tested Koto on whether or not she would continue to love her despite being rejected, and fell in love with her only because she became convinced that Koto will love her no matter what.

Wow, you almost got exact the same character analysis as me. I'm surprised, just WOW. Glad there are more people understand her actually having the most distorted mindset out of the trio.

She is a 14-year-old who was forced to mature way faster than she should have due to the failures of the adults in her life, but that doesn't mean she's actually mature, it means she pathologically hides her vulnerabilities and weaknesses because she fundamentally lacks faith that anyone could possibly love the real her.

However, chapter 15 is Aya's first time (lol) showing her vulnerabilities and weaknesses towards Koto. She wants Koto (only Koto) to see the real her while Erika can be as usual. I believe she does have changed as she said.

Don't want to talk about Erika this time. Not like l care about her anyways.

This is mostly just a feeling, but I think where we're going is that Aya is more selfish than she seems and Erika less selfish than she seems. The conclusion will be that they were both regular people all along, compared to the pedestal Aya was put on by Erika/Koto or Erika's self hate.

The reading of Aya as remarkable and selfless doesn't totally fit to me. She made Koto confess multiple times before giving an answer, she seems to have been testing Koto to see if Koto would still love her (even later thinking, this isn't the love I was looking for or something like that, rather than that being in a relationship like that would be bad for Koto), she was relieved her only surviving family member was dead, and she may have had some role in her disappearance.

This to me reads like someone who is afraid of commitment and emotionally stunted in some ways. This makes sense if we think of her as someone who had to 'grow up fast' to meet her responsibilities and never got to have a typical childhood. A child like that will seem mature relative to other kids who are goofing off, but they can only meet those obligations by neglecting other areas of their life. This would explain her past desire to escape and be free, as she would have felt burdened by all the expectations she had to meet.

It would also explain why she's so disturbed by any hint she's being treated like a child. She can live independently, work a professional job, and more, but she can't give herself permission to be weak or vulnerable. She also hates being reliant on support by others, even though everyone must depend on others even as an adult.

It would be less interesting and unsurprising if it turns out Aya is exactly the ideal person Koto and Erika have been thinking she is. To think the story keeps telling us Aya is really a good actor. I do believe main of the reason she's so good at acting is due to her daily life practicing.

I don't know how many people have noticed but it's Aya's first time to confess her real thoughts in chapter 15. One of her biggest flaw, Aya couldn't just say how she really feels. When she said "Koto, you are able to say how you feel" , she actually mean it lol. Maybe she always considered Koto a far more courageous people than her. It also can explain why Aya chose to break up with Koto.

To note：lt's never my intention to trigger any argument. I love Kirin-kun's translation and be very grateful for his hard works. He gives me a place to discuss my favorite yuri manga. In the start, l think it's just translator's misreading so l choose to say it. And yes, it wouldn't be a mistake serious enough to change the plot (maybe only the read of the character according to nestor). However, it's also not a bad thing for him learning to figure it out the difference.

How do you know that they haven't?

I can be sure.

Hell, he might even be Japanese for you know, a lot of translators are ESL and/or immigrants.

I can tell his native language is not Japanese at least.

You're making the assumption that your interpretation must be correct and anyone who doesn't see it must be ignorant or less knowledgeable than you, even though you can't even explain what your reasoning is. Instead of demanding other people do things you assume they haven't done, you should work on your ability to put into words your reasoning for how you're interpreting those words. Maybe a Japanese person could help you lol

Well, it's really hard to explain because it's more like a sense of language？

Again. Where exactly does that hostility come from？I'm curious.

You're talking to someone who's translated this manga and a ton of others lol. I'm not saying Kirin is perfect or anything but I'd imagine their Japanese is good enough that this "trust me bro I'm right" shit isn't gonna go well. What stuff have you translated?

So that's why l suggest him to ask a real Japanese. Just dont know where your hostility comes from.

Talking about chapter 13, l just found " …琴から連絡来てたんだ " should be Aya's talking.

It's not that obvious to me.

琴 から: Indicates the source, meaning "from Koto"
連絡 (れんらく, renraku): Means "contact" or "communication" (e.g., a message, call, or email).
来てた: The past tense of "来る" (kuru, "to come"), indicating that the contact/message "came" or was received.
んだ : gives a nuance of explanation or realization.

We see the hands of Aya, but it could be Erika talking. It doesn't change the rest of the conversation, or the story, but apart the hands I don't see in the line itself who could be talking. I went with Erika because it seemed Aya was answering on the next panel. In any case, Erika provided the information that Koto called.

It couldn't be.
The whole situation is like：
Erika provided the information that Koto called, which we don't see it directly in the manga.
Aya：…right, Koto had called you.
(…琴から連絡来てたんだ)
Aya：Well, there's no surprised.
(まあ、そうだよね)

I know it wouldn't chang any plot of story, but still. It should be Aya's talking. Unfortunately, l don't know how to explain it to you that it couldn't be Erika. Have you happened to have a Japanese friend to ask？

I think I’m asking (and not at all in a dismissive way)

Not saying you are.

what is the difference to the story that the change makes?

No change at all.

And why would Aya then say, “Well, I guessed as much”? What did she “guess” if not that Erika got a call from Koto?

………………

I’m interested in this story in large part because it has a great many subtleties, so I’m wondering what this one would be.

Then you must be disappointed.

Talking about chapter 13, l just found " …琴から連絡来てたんだ " should be Aya's talking.

How so? The next panel’s “Well, I guessed as much” definitely is Aya talking, and that pretty much has to be a reply to the text you quoted. And of course, we see Erika get a call from Koto.

I think translator can tell. It's really hard to explain something like this. Sometimes we can tell who's talking even though we don't get to see their face, just by the way they talk in Japanese.
In brief, if it was Erika's talking, it would be like
"…琴から連絡が来てたよ"
(Well, Erika's character won't be this gentle though. Just an easy example)

Edited："…琴から連絡来てたわよ" it's more like Erika's character

Can you tell the difference？

last edited at Dec 24, 2024 10:07AM

Talking about chapter 13, l just found " …琴から連絡来てたんだ " should be Aya's talking.

Koto said Aya promised to take her with if she ever ran away from home,

You say Koto believed Aya had promised her they would run away together even though not being told of the place of "if not here, where is it？". And this whole scenario taken as wanting to run away from home is so ridiculous l can't even take it seriously.
We just put all of Aya's personality aside. Does Aya really have any motivation of running away？ What's the point when her grandpa was dying slowly and there's no domestic abuse involved.

The more reasonable interpretation of Aya looking somewhere is she's always wondering the place she truly belong. Aya thought she didn't really belong here since this is not the place where she grew up. Not until she accepted her grandparents as her new family and had Koto and Erika as her new best friends. But everything had changed again when her grandma dead. She saw her grandpa was slowly dying because of losing his wife, and he doesn't even try to live for his granddaughter. Not to mention Koto confessed to her nearly at same period. In a short period of time, Aya had lost most of her connections to this place. I think that's why she started to ask herself again "Do l really belong here？".

Erika's dissonant, arguably negative thoughts not only don't make her a bad person, they make her more impressive; she is winning the hardest fight, the one against herself, in acting as she does. If Erika had no ulterior motive or personal investment in the situation, and was merely a benign, neutral third party, her support would be less impressive. Seeing how she feels is what proves that she is truly a good person.

Yes, Erika definitely not a bad person. Like l had said before, she actually has the highest moral standard out of the trio. She is the typical type of model student who hates to break the rule and can't even take a joke. Unfortunately, l always don't have interest in serious type girl because they are easy to read most of the time.

Well, the only thing l think the adult Erika has done wrong is she doesn't tell Aya to reevaluate how she feels about present Koto when she came back or resumed dating Koto. Just let the poor girl being manipulated and waited until their relationship started to crumble.

last edited at Dec 24, 2024 8:09AM

It's hilarious that people think Erika did something horrible that night at the festival when she's the one who brought it up, with a tone suggestion she feels awkward or embarrassed, not guilty or ashamed.

She's obviously more curious about Aya's disappearance at that moment. And the reason she's not feeling guilty or ashamed is because the conversation they had on Tanabata festival was not the one (unpleasant confrontation) which result in Aya's disappearance.

If anyone has ever paid their attention, they would notice the day of Tanabata festival is Saturday, the day students don't need to go to school. Then why Aya shows up (chapter 1) with her uniform on and holding her schoolbag? Because she got spirited away a day before the festival. In chapter 17, sb's (aka fucking Erika) flashback, Aya also was wearing uniform while sb's on her PE uniform.

Don't even know the Aya Erika had talked with on Tanabata day is real Aya or the Aya who has time traveled again.

I have to say your observation is brilliant, at least better than half of the people on this forum. Well, it would be more convincing if you didn't hate Erika this much.

last edited at Dec 23, 2024 11:30AM

Honestly, l don't want to get involved in the argument. But it's kinda interesting we can say whatever we want about Koto (calling her mental or a bozo and her relationship with Aya is shit) every way possible without being labeled as a hater. While things come to Erika, you are the hater who got their firstborn killed by her lol. I'm not complaining just wondering why there's such a difference.

At least rosetammy25 is being honest, that they hate Erika. And l also think Erika did have an unpleasant confrontation with Aya after reading chapter 17 due to her (Erika) flashback. Well, l doubt Erika had done something fishy towards Aya from the very beginning because the level of guilt is really out of common.

Koto is easy to read, she needs to get past her trauma.

Had you successfully guessed the ending of chapter 4？l hadn't. As fas as I'm concerned, Koto is the most complicated character out of the trio. (I somehow notice Aya's biggest fear and Erika's hidden agenda from the very beginning of the manga)

Also lol that Tanabata reference is useless because you're just assuming Erika is the third wheel star, but have you considered it could be Aya herself, swinging by to get in between Erika and Koto just when Koto finally seemed to be healing? I'm not saying this is the definitive intention but I am saying it's one valid interpretation. 

To be fair, Koto and Erika were childhood friends and Koto didn't fall for Erika before she met Aya. It's kinda weird seeing Aya as the third wheel.
I think Koto is just not attracted to Erika, unfortunately. And Aya is the disaster who would fall for anyone she believes can love her forever. That's why l don't really think Koto deserves Aya but still can't help wanting them to be together.

last edited at Dec 20, 2024 4:14AM

Someone really needs to calm down. How could you enjoy the manga when you have so much hate on one of the protagonist (the story is about a triangle, after all). Erika is very complexed character who has her desire conflicted with her own moral standard. But she's definitely not a bad person. This whole spirit away nonsense is the last thing Erika can predict.

And I can somehow be sure now Aya's disappearance is completely due to her own wish. To her, Erika is a very important friend. Despite not loving her in romantic way, she is always nearly equal to Koto. If anyone has read the extra chapter (total 12 pages) included in volume.1 physical release, you would easily understand Aya cherishes both of them pretty much.

There's no way she could be with Koto if it means she has to lose Erika. So it must be her wish like "l hope there's a solution of this" (after the talk she had with Erika). It also can explain why she only comes back while Erika sincerely wants it to happen.

Koto and Aya very obviously could never have worked out without them dealing with the gap between their past memories and their present relationship. Thus the only possible scenario where Erika WOULDN'T say "Do you truly love the present Koto?" is one where she's dumb and giving bad advice. Therefore there's not really any motive you can legitimately read into that line imo. Any friend knowledgeable about the situation would have said the exact same thing to Aya.

You got the point. Any friend without an ulterior motive would have said the exact same thing to Aya the day she came back or started dating Koto.

And l have to point out Koto herself had noticed that fact at the beginning. She acknowledges well she's not the girl Aya agreed to date anymore. So she planned a whole scenario forcing Aya to choose between her or being left behind. Quite interesting dynamic in chapter 15 when Aya requested to know what actually happened in Koto's past seven years without her, Koto was acting like this：
"You don't need to know."
"You said it, didn't you? That the present you loves the present me."
Tbh, I'm pretty fond of Koto. I know she's afraid Aya couldn't love the person what she has become. Aya's words here is kinda bullshit to her since she had already tried seven years to fall in love with others. Koto knows better than anyone else that you would never be able to force yourself to romantically love someone even if you want to. However, her manipulating a 14 yo is not something l can turn my back on.

Well, Erika allowing everything to happen is because in her mind Koto is far more important than Aya. She needs them to get back together at least once and can't break up too early or Koto wouldn't change. In brief, She used Aya like a fucking tool to heal Koto.

One thing to be clear, Aya has her own flaws. I will never like a perfectly innocent angel character.

She lacks empathy. She notices Aya hides her pain behind a smile, but she doesn't really care and immediately thinks about how to exploit the opportunity. She comes off as calculative and cold, even though she's racked with guilt. She admits to herself that the breakup made her happy.

It's like the fact that Aya is a 14 year old without any family, who's struggling to survive after losing everything is totally abstract to her. It's like she never considered Aya as a friend, even in middle school. Only as an obstacle she can finally push aside and forget.

Not just Aya, I think the same could be applied to Koto too, Erika's love toward Koto is kind of weird. The idea of Aya coming back to give Koto false hope, then leave her again is incredibly cruel to Koto. Yet why would Erika want that to happen? Because to her, Koto's - the girl she supposed to love - well being is not as important as herself having her damn chance. I feel like to Erika, it's not about Koto, but herself and her chance to win Koto over.

I get that being selfish is very human or reality etc, but it's still bad and Erika feeling guilty about it is not undeserved at all.

If there's anything l would criticize this manga is Kabocha loves Aya too much, which seriously impact the balance of the love triangle story. Despite truly loving Koto, Aya is willing to let her go if it's for Koto's well being. She knows it's not right to keep Koto stuck in the past, even though that Koto would undoubtedly "love" her forever. In Erika's case, she also wants Koto to move forward but for another personal selfish reason. In brief, she wouldn't give two shits if Koto could just fall in love with her.

As a reader, l love Aya the most and don't actually care about Erika, but I don't really like the comparison. Just like defeating a villain who is cartoonishly bad and stupid is fucking boring. Not to mention Erika is also one of the protagonist. My beloved Aya deserves a better rival than this.

last edited at Nov 12, 2024 5:10PM

So you're telling me Americans are never ambiguous, Japanese people always are,

Normally.

and it's impossible for translators to make a Japanese person make sense to an American when translating their dialog huh. What else can I say but lol.

Translators sometimes have to guess. But of course you can't understand.

(I had a close personal friend in college who came to America from Japan specifically to study sociology and we had a lot of great conversations on cultural differences and similarities, I learned a ton from her, but I don't really think I need to go citing anything rn lol)

Yeah. That's why l say you never talk with real Japanese in japanese (which l have a lot of experience). You have never truly in Japan's society to really get close to them. The only Japanese you have known is an international student, which can use your own word (act like it's some inherently Japanese thing).

I have to tell you. You said Erika is just expressing her anxiety and hoping her friends will validate her (example①). That's not the normal way Japanese will choose to do. That's Americans thinking. Thank god you can ask your Japanese friend now, l don't need to explain a lot.

What's the point of manipulating the truth to break them up

But she didn't! She told the truth of what can be directly observed: Aya is 'fine', energetic and pushing forward. "Aya hiding her pain" is Erika's own inference.

I never say Erika is trying to break them up here. What l am saying is Erika is trying to let Koto give up on Aya. Letting her know Aya doesn't even feel any sorrow about their breakup is a good way to let anyone give up.

You can't find a sentence in english has the meaning of consent and refusal

Sure you can.

"Do you want ice cream?"
"I'm okay." or "It's okay." Very close to "ii desu yo" as a positive refusal.

So…"I'm okay." or "It's okay." here can also mean
"l want an ice cream."？

last edited at Nov 9, 2024 1:57AM

Well, that's because you don't know anything about Japan and their culture. The author and the characters in this manga are not Americans lol.

https://note.com/yuzuuudayo/n/n31522799dc47
This is the site which have analyzed this manga, and also have said about my example ①&② ( l believe she can't talk about ③ simply because chapter 16 hasn't come out yet when she had a analysis). You can see how a Japanese read Erika's action.
And this is the definition of manipulation from Cambridge Dictionary：controlling someone or something to your own advantage, often unfairly or dishonestly.
I think we can call Erika's behalf manipulative according to the definition, fairly.

Fascinating double header of appealing to authority here: first you find a Japanese reader who interpreted the character similar to you and act like it's some inherently Japanese thing that's completely alien to the mind of a westerner going on.... And then you cite the Cambridge Dictionary to define manipulation?? You know Cambridge isn't in Japan right?

Yeah. My bad.

Personally, I've yet to find an argument that "oh Japanese emotions and social relations are just completely different from us normal peop- uh I mean Americans" to be compelling. I've been reading manga for fifteen years now and have never seen an emotion or social dynamic that I haven't also seen in Western fiction. Mostly it just seems kind of implicitly racist to claim they're fundamentally different tbh. Japan was colonized by America and still has American military bases. They learn English in schools, watch and read translated American media, have a ton of loanwords from foreign languages, etc. I feel pretty confident in asserting there's a lot more cultural difference between you and I than the difference between us on average and modern Japanese culture.

This is exactly why l said there's a big cultural difference between Americans and Japanese. Americans always say things they want in direct no hiding ways (which l prefer) while Japanese at the pretty opposite. I can be sure now you never learn japanese, nor have the experience of really talking with real Japanese (in japanese). All your impression of them is from the manga, which are all translated in english.

For easy example:
大丈夫です。
いいですよ。
This two sentences can both express yes and no, which you have to identify speaker's real intention yourself (fuck). You can't find a sentence in english has the meaning of consent and refusal. This is their 空気読む culture which you might never be able to understand.

last edited at Nov 8, 2024 9:36PM

She's suck but it doesn't mean she never tried lol.

Gonna need examples of Erika trying to be manipulative.

①Chapter 1：
→"Well, anyway, we're going to be busy with the club. There's no need for us to be in love yet, right？"

Erika's trying to let the other two think it's a bad idea if they choose to date right now. But it was mainly said towards Koto. You can see Koto was feeling the pressure (next picture) because she knew Aya loved acting and always be the lead role of their drama club. Erika implied "you might disturb Aya if you ask her to go out" here.

However, it turned out Koto still can't help but confess. Erika is suck at manipulating people all due to her not knowing that person who she wants to manipulate pretty well (and never notice that fact). Koto has the most selfish character out of the trio. Normally, people who had been refused will be hesitant to confess again for fearing he/she might feel bothered, but Koto couldn't care less.

Compared to Aya, who successfully pushed Koto to do the script things while jokingly playing Koto around at the same time. Yes, Erika literally has no talent in this area.

②Chapter 3：
→"So, if your feelings died down and you move on…You have to make it clear to her, don't you think？"

Even that's the case, you don't have to say in this way. As their friends, "You have to figure out how you feels about her now" is far more appropriate in this situation. But of course l can get it, Erika loves Koto and wants to lead her to think she has no feelings towards Aya now. It's understandable.

③Chapter 16：
→"She's fine. It's even surprising."

That's the reply when Koto ask "How is Aya-chan？" Erika knows Aya is not really fine but still chose to say that. She wants Koto to move on so badly to the degree that she is disgusting me here. Erika thought Koto would be miraculously moving forward if she acknowledges Aya doesn't even feel any sorrow about their breakup (while it's not the truth lol). So we can see why she gets mad next page that Koto is still all about Aya as usual.

I have said it before and l am going to say it again. Holding an unrequited love that long is never a good thing. Ultimately, you will be hurting the people you love because you can't control yourself, to think you already cost too much on it.

Accepting someone might never loves you back is a maturity which should be marked with a red line.

None of that is manipulative lmao. You're accusing her of thought crimes for having and expressing feelings. That first example in particular is just hilarious to me to call it manipulation, because it's just Erika expressing her anxiety and hoping her friends will validate her. Saying something to someone in hopes they'll reassure you or make you feel better is hardly "manipulation".
And both the other examples are Erika literally just being a good friend to Aya. The first was her expressing some wishful thinking, that Koto having seen Aya as a child would realize "oh she's a child and I'm an adult I guess this ain't really a thing I should pursue, huh?" because Erika frequently overestimates Koto lol. The second is, as Blastaar said, Erika telling Koto what Aya would want told to Koto: reassuring her that she's safe and okay. Because Koto's extremely anxious about Aya and would not handle it well if she was given more reason to worry about her.

Well, that's because you don't know anything about Japan and their culture. The author and the characters in this manga are not Americans lol.

https://note.com/yuzuuudayo/n/n31522799dc47
This is the site which have analyzed this manga, and also have said about my example ①&② ( l believe she can't talk about ③ simply because chapter 16 hasn't come out yet when she had a analysis). You can see how a Japanese read Erika's action.
And this is the definition of manipulation from Cambridge Dictionary：controlling someone or something to your own advantage, often unfairly or dishonestly.
I think we can call Erika's behalf manipulative according to the definition, fairly.

To note：Blastaar can't even understand what l am trying to say in example ③. I don't know why you drag him here while his refutations are always not at the point. That's a reason l agreed it's wasting our time to have any discussion with him before (nearly 8 months ago).

To be clear: Erika HAS problems. I'm hardly calling her an "angel" as you've accused me before, lmao. Her problems just don't include being a bad friend to either Koto or Erika: Instead her flaws are about self-neglect, self-hatred, and overestimating Koto and Aya (mostly Koto).

But…you sure seem like denying Erika has anything to do with Aya's disappearance even though chapter 13 obviously shows that's not the case. I'm curious how you explain her self-hatred if not from the guilt of things she had done in the past.

Erika's bad for herself, not her friends.

That's pretty much see her as an innocent angel to me.

last edited at Nov 8, 2024 6:33PM

Obviously we are shown what Erika is feeling and thinking--I never said we weren't. But the challenge was to present concrete evidence that Erika has been manipulating the truth in an attempt to break up Aya and Koto.

That's not what l'm saying. Aya and Koto had already broken up. What's the point of manipulating the truth to break them up？ Before you can understand what I'm trying to say (the subject Erika wants to manipulate in chapter 16) in that post, we can't continue any discussion. It's just so stupid.

She's suck but it doesn't mean she never tried lol.

Gonna need examples of Erika trying to be manipulative.

③Chapter 16：
→"She's fine. It's even surprising."

That's the reply when Koto ask "How is Aya-chan？" Erika knows Aya is not really fine but still chose to say that. She wants Koto to move on so badly to the degree that she is disgusting me here.

This is a fine example of how your personal antipathy towards the characters distorts your “analysis” of the story. Yes, we are shown that Erika assumes that Aya is suffering emotionally from the breakup with Koto, but Aya is presenting to Erika precisely as Erika describes her. Almost certainly Erika’s description is exactly what Aya would want her to tell Koto.

Well, you would convince me if Erika didn't show her disappointment the same page and her annoyance next page.

To note, Koto had been talking all about Aya the moment Erika sat in her apartment. Then why suddenly got annoyed？ You can see Erika's face was full of hope after replying Koto that Aya is pretty fine, but turned to great disappointment (in the same page) when she found out Koto still only focused on Aya.
(Of course, if you can't tell it from the picture. We can't continue this pointless talk)

Erika is not Aya’s therapist or someone whose job it is to reveal to Koto what Aya is really feeling, nor would it be her place even if she were an entirely neutral party to facilitate the obviously unhealthy relationship that Koto wants to have with Aya.

I couldn't care less about that part. Aya is far more stronger in mind than the other two. For crying out loud, she is the only one who can survive in an unrequited love as a fucking 14 yo lol.

You of course are free to be “disgusted” by anything you choose.

Yes, l know. What are you trying to say here？
l just don't know where your hostility comes from. But l guess l don't actually care. You are free to hate me.