How does that work? Does she hate it or is she just apathetic?

It's different for everyone. Here she has no sexual desire but she feels guilty about it so she'snot apathetic. She's not sexually attracted to her wife but she's romantically attached to her. She's also averse to touches that she sees as preludes to sexual intimacy. Which is why she shuddered when her neck was nuzzled even though she was fine being hugged.

Thank you for coming to my Ramble.

How does that work? Does she hate it or is she just apathetic?

Yeah... that's the thing. It doesn't work.

She cares for her, but she doesn't love her. It's an entirely doomed one sided relationship. Areo Ace people can deeply care about and love people, but they can't ever be IN love with them. That's the aromantic part of aro-ace.

Functionally, she might as well be straight.

How does that work? Does she hate it or is she just apathetic?

Yeah... that's the thing. It doesn't work.

She cares for her, but she doesn't love her. It's an entirely doomed one sided relationship. Areo Ace people can deeply care about and love people, but they can't ever be IN love with them. That's the aromantic part of aro-ace.

Functionally, she might as well be straight.

Ok so, this is a take I see a lot on stories about aro and/or ace people, and it's not always wrong, but it definitely isn't always right.

I think there's two issues people struggle to understand.

The first issue is misunderstanding what it means to be aro and/or ace, and the answer to what those words mean is... "it's complicated". Like, really complicated. Imagine trying to describe "falling in love". How do you get someone to understand what love feels like using only your words? Then add on to that the fact that even among ace/aro people it's not always the same. They're referred to as spectrums for a reason.

So yeah, it's complicated.

The second issue I see people having trouble with is understanding the area between "friends" and "lovers", which is, ironically, exactly what this manga is about. That's where a lot of the details lie for aro/ace people. Some don't want anything past "friends" at all, but many still desire companionship. A lot of the time, like in this story, that kind of companionship is really tricky to nail down with a label.

These things combined obviously lead to a lot of misunderstandings, which is really tough because god knows it's confusing enough already for the people it even matters to. And all this is barely scratching the surface.

At the end of the day, I at least would really just prefer if people didn't try and decide for others how a relationship "should" work or what it "should" look like. I think that we can all agree that even if it's well intentioned it's not really anyone else's business.

TL;DR if their relationship works for them, it's fine, isn't it? if it changes course then that's fine too. people change in many ways as they grow.

How does that work? Does she hate it or is she just apathetic?

Yeah... that's the thing. It doesn't work.

She cares for her, but she doesn't love her. It's an entirely doomed one sided relationship. Areo Ace people can deeply care about and love people, but they can't ever be IN love with them. That's the aromantic part of aro-ace.

Functionally, she might as well be straight.

Ok so, this is a take I see a lot on stories about aro and/or ace people, and it's not always wrong, but it definitely isn't always right.

I think there's two issues people struggle to understand.

The first issue is misunderstanding what it means to be aro and/or ace, and the answer to what those words mean is... "it's complicated". Like, really complicated. Imagine trying to describe "falling in love". How do you get someone to understand what love feels like using only your words? Then add on to that the fact that even among ace/aro people it's not always the same. They're referred to as spectrums for a reason.

So yeah, it's complicated.

The second issue I see people having trouble with is understanding the area between "friends" and "lovers", which is, ironically, exactly what this manga is about. That's where a lot of the details lie for aro/ace people. Some don't want anything past "friends" at all, but many still desire companionship. A lot of the time, like in this story, that kind of companionship is really tricky to nail down with a label.

These things combined obviously lead to a lot of misunderstandings, which is really tough because god knows it's confusing enough already for the people it even matters to. And all this is barely scratching the surface.

At the end of the day, I at least would really just prefer if people didn't try and decide for others how a relationship "should" work or what it "should" look like. I think that we can all agree that even if it's well intentioned it's not really anyone else's business.

TL;DR if their relationship works for them, it's fine, isn't it? if it changes course then that's fine too. people change in many ways as they grow.

I agree with all this, and after doing a fair bit of reading and listening on the topic, I personally feel like the only people whose descriptions of such relationships matter are people who consider themselves part of that spectrum.

As far as stories about such relationships, it's still the early days of authors exploring the narrative possibilities and of general readers becoming more familiar with the underlying concepts.

I love thos story. I've read it three times. Jun and Iori are so cute together. They consider each other's feelings and can be silly with each other and we see Iori grow open about her feelings for Jun. Meanwhile Jun has been open with her affections while respecting Jun's boundaries.
Like Iori is Ace. There is no Question about that. We see her coming to terms with her feelings for Jun being romantic but not in the way she's used to. She considers herself Jun's Girlfriend. Meanwhile Jun is a
Sweetheart. She's understanding and accepting of their differences but she doesn't trivialize them. Like there's more to a relationship than physical compatibility. Sure it's intertwined for some people but for others it is not. Here we see the Love being more important than sex being achievable.

All this to say: I adore these two.

last edited at Jul 17, 2024 8:36AM

How does that work? Does she hate it or is she just apathetic?

Yeah... that's the thing. It doesn't work.

She cares for her, but she doesn't love her. It's an entirely doomed one sided relationship. Areo Ace people can deeply care about and love people, but they can't ever be IN love with them. That's the aromantic part of aro-ace.

Functionally, she might as well be straight.

Asexuality and Aromanticism are related but distinct identities and lots of people can be one without the other. I don't think this character is meant to be aromantic at all. She's got a couple lines about not wanting to be alone, and how if she wasn't with Jun she'd probably get a boyfriend again, even with the same problem likely to reocccur. I also don't think their relationship is at all doomed or one-sided, there's like zero indications of any looming issues for them by the end. Jun's repeatedly emphasized how she's okay with Iori being ace and loves her for who she is. She technically can't get every single need she has met by her romantic partner, sure, but in practice that's true for basically every couple and expecting otherwise is frequently very toxic lol. It's not like people need a romantic partner to satiate their sex drives, that's such a solved problem that even animals know how manage there :P

last edited at Jul 16, 2024 1:26PM

Jun-chan is Interested in Lesbian Brothels

I really enjoyed this and have read it few times to mull it over. Established relationships with tension over what form the relationship should take in the future and what meaning it has always work for me as a plotline, and this one is very poignant, as both women clearly adore each other but don't want to overstep. Sexual and romantic feelings are so intertwined in our cultural messaging that it does take work to unravel them, but valuable relationships can be created when you do.

Wow. Introspective tag with some real introspection. This manga feels like the late-night therapy sessions I have with myself on a word document in a dimly lit room.

Ain't gonna work out in the long term. The black-haired obviously still has a sex drive but just trying to act cheerful/pretend everything's fine for her gf's sake, but she's gonna feel unfulfilled in the long run.

This reads like an asexual woman's fantasy about the unrealistically ideal lover. Kind, pretty, compassionate, all-understanding without ever needing anything for herself. In fact, it looks like she always puts her needs after those of her girlfriend. And she says exactly the things asexual women want to hear the most in the way they most want it too. She doesn't feel like a proper character, she only exists as wish fulfillment for women like the MC.

Ain't gonna work out in the long term. The black-haired obviously still has a sex drive but just trying to act cheerful/pretend everything's fine for her gf's sake, but she's gonna feel unfulfilled in the long run.

This reads like an asexual woman's fantasy about the unrealistically ideal lover. Kind, pretty, compassionate, all-understanding without ever needing anything for herself. In fact, it looks like she always puts her needs after those of her girlfriend. And she says exactly the things asexual women want to hear the most in the way they most want it too. She doesn't feel like a proper character, she only exists as wish fulfillment for women like the MC.

I wouldn't say the black-haired one obviously has a sex drive. I can imagine her as somewhere on the ace spectrum too. We don't really have enough information to say exactly what her relationship to sex is. And when it comes down to it, she is in charge of the decisions she makes. If she prefers to be with her love interest despite the difficulties, that's her choice.

Sure, maybe she is a kind of wish-fulfillment character for an asexual woman, but the author certainly explored the nuances and the main character's guilt about the relationship. Ace people deserve some wish-fulfillment too! There's certainly plenty of allo wish-fulfillment stories out there.

Ain't gonna work out in the long term. The black-haired obviously still has a sex drive but just trying to act cheerful/pretend everything's fine for her gf's sake, but she's gonna feel unfulfilled in the long run.

This reads like an asexual woman's fantasy about the unrealistically ideal lover. Kind, pretty, compassionate, all-understanding without ever needing anything for herself. In fact, it looks like she always puts her needs after those of her girlfriend. And she says exactly the things asexual women want to hear the most in the way they most want it too. She doesn't feel like a proper character, she only exists as wish fulfillment for women like the MC.

She's definitely portrayed as basically perfect but one-shots aren't typically where you can expect a full 3d long term portrait of a character, especially when they're not the single main character. Dunno how that means they won't work out though. I'm not ace but if I had to choose between "no more sex with your gf" or "break up with your gf" I wouldn't find the choice difficult to make and I seriously doubt I'd regret it. I've gone years single and it somehow didn't kill me, so I'm pretty sure I can cope if I needed to. That might not be everyone but it certainly makes the character in the manga feel plausible to me, lol. Like sure, sex is great, but it's not as rare or special as a great romance imo. You can deal with the former on your own, you can't do that with the latter without becoming one of those "printing out my waifu so I can marry her irl" kinds of nerd

Nobody said anything about whether she does or does not have the right to decide her own life. What I'm saying is how choices like that usually play out in real life.

Black-haired does want to have a normal amount of sex/ intimate physical contact but is ignoring her desires for the sake of the gf, see: how she awkwardly laughed when MC asked her if she liked sex, lowered down to kiss the blondie's neck but stopped short when the latter didn't like it, hesitated to give her even a peck on the cheek and had to stop afterwards to check if her gf's okay with that (blondie's surprised reaction implies this is not a common occurence). That and when confronted about the issue, she simply waved it aside and said sappy things like "everyone is different, just accept yourself and be happy". Yes, everyone is different, and that's what causes problems in relationships when one's needs is being unmet by the other because it is her dislike. She still hasn't solved the practical problem of how she'll satisfy her needs yet. The only thing we're shown is that she completely ignores/ pretending she doesn't have needs/ it's no big deal so as to not make her gf feel guilty. Apply this to any real life relationship and you'll see how it wouldn't work out in the long run, and even if it does, one party is gonna be extremely miserable for as long as it lasts.

This... martyr archetype who has no needs of her own and only exist to fulfill others' (usually the MC's) desires is ubiquitous in media for obvious reasons. But it usually manifests very differently in real life due to how human psyche works. I know the type. They aren't actually selfless. They still have needs and wants like everybody else, but for one reason or another tries to suppress it for someone else's sake, but those unmet desires of theirs aren't going anywhere, they're gonna cause resentment, lots of resentment, and when they can't hold it in anymore, they explode. Either onto the person who caused it or someone else. And then back to another martyr-ing cycle. That's how it works.

I see no character nuances here. Wanting to be loved by normal people but feeling insecure due to being unable to meet their needs is like, the crux of the asexuals' dilemma. The author tries to solve that by creating a cardboard character who still has sexual needs but happily casts them aside to please the MC. A more elegant solution to the problem would've been to hook asexuals up with each other.

Wow, so romance stories sometimes constitute unrealistic wish-fulfillment—who knew?

Nobody said anything about whether she does or does not have the right to decide her own life. What I'm saying is how choices like that usually play out in real life.

Black-haired does want to have a normal amount of sex/ intimate physical contact but is ignoring her desires for the sake of the gf, see: how she awkwardly laughed when MC asked her if she liked sex, lowered down to kiss the blondie's neck but stopped short when the latter didn't like it, hesitated to give her even a peck on the cheek and had to stop afterwards to check if her gf's okay with that (blondie's surprised reaction implies this is not a common occurence). That and when confronted about the issue, she simply waved it aside and said sappy things like "everyone is different, just accept yourself and be happy". Yes, everyone is different, and that's what causes problems in relationships when one's needs is being unmet by the other because it is her dislike. She still hasn't solved the practical problem of how she'll satisfy her needs yet. The only thing we're shown is that she completely ignores/ pretending she doesn't have needs/ it's no big deal so as to not make her gf feel guilty. Apply this to any real life relationship and you'll see how it wouldn't work out in the long run, and even if it does, one party is gonna be extremely miserable for as long as it lasts.

This... martyr archetype who has no needs of her own and only exist to fulfill others' (usually the MC's) desires is ubiquitous in media for obvious reasons. But it usually manifests very differently in real life due to how human psyche works. I know the type. They aren't actually selfless. They still have needs and wants like everybody else, but for one reason or another tries to suppress it for someone else's sake, but those unmet desires of theirs aren't going anywhere, they're gonna cause resentment, lots of resentment, and when they can't hold it in anymore, they explode. Either onto the person who caused it or someone else. And then back to another martyr-ing cycle. That's how it works.

I see no character nuances here. Wanting to be loved by normal people but feeling insecure due to being unable to meet their needs is like, the crux of the asexuals' dilemma. The author tries to solve that by creating a cardboard character who still has sexual needs but happily casts them aside to please the MC. A more elegant solution to the problem would've been to hook asexuals up with each other.

You're entirely correct. I unironically and deeply agree with your analysis on an intellectual and spiritual level.

Now where's my perfect martyr woman who will sacrifice all her needs for me, a disgusting asexual? :3

Now where's my perfect martyr woman who will sacrifice all her needs for me, a disgusting asexual? :3

For me too please are there any spares
Why can't we get a single AroAce story without this kind of comment? If people get to fantasize about big titty women harem that will serve them no matter how worthless they are, I think we can also get a character that understands, loves and respects us even if it doesn't fit what is, supposedly, reality.

Find it strange tbh to see people still call a character who resembles me irl an "unrealistic martyr" lol. Sadly I'm sort of used to it since I regularly see people decry my body type existing in fiction as inherently objectifying.

I don't agree that this story portrays martyrdom. It portrays compromises that people make for the ones they love. People are free to determine what are acceptable compromises and what are deal breakers.

• A person likes living in a city near friends and family, but their partner gets a job in another city, so they move.
• Or, the partner passes on the job.

• Or, they break up.

• A person likes a certain sexual act, but their partner isn't into it, so they decide to go without.

• Or, the other partner decides to indulge.

• Or, they break up.

All of these are valid choices. Compromise may produce resentment, or it may not. In this story, maybe Iori will come to feel comfortable with intimate touch that stops short of sex, or maybe not (I think this page is a good indicator). In any case, these two communicate honestly with each other, so things will probably work out for them.

...

OK, the instant forgiveness after forgetting the eggs is a bit martyrish. ;)

Gods for people supporting lesbian comics some of y'all sure do you hate asexuals...

Gods for people supporting lesbian comics some of y'all sure do hate asexuals...

Ain't that something?
I still remember the absolute fuckery that went down in the comment section of Crescent Moon and Doughnuts once the protagonists were revealed to be aro/ace.
It was so disappointing to see, especially cause it was only a year and a half ago that that happened, and you would've thought based on the ignorant reaction that this was happening 10 years ago when the concept of asexuality wasn't as understood as it today.
I came to the comments of this one expecting/hoping it would be different, but I was sadly disappointed with some of them, I am so sorry to the aro/ace community y'all deserve better.

Now with that being said I actually preferred this story even though it wasn't a full series; as it showed the couple living together and their domestic life, as opposed to them living in separate apartments like in CM&D.

Page 17 stings. I've had relationships end because my partner wanted sex and I didn't. Not even that I told them no; even after considering doing it to make them happy, just my lack of interest was enough for them to break up with me.

This. It's either people think you don't love them or they break up because they're unsatisfied, even if you do have sex for their sake. At some point, you just kind of give up.

(Right now, either I date someone on the ace spectrum, or I'll just flat out not date anyone again. I don't have the patience to go through all that stuff with allo people again)

Agreed. I'm ace, but not aro. (The concept of me having sex with someone else is like watching paint dry. And while I've read porn - or at least, works with explicit sex scenes; I don't like anything that's nothing but sex - I invariably rush through or skip the sex scenes. First four pages and last four pages are usually "the interesting parts" to me.)

Well, isn't that me skipping through 90% of the stuff here because I want to know whether Asumi is going to find her childhood friend and the sex scenes are basically filler.

Nothing pisses me off faster than someone implying our relationship somehow doesn't count just because we aren't having sex.

So basically they're telling you that the only thing that matters for them in a relationship is sex. That's how little they value their partner.

...Didn't mean for this to turn into a blog post, but I'm feeling emotional and my fingers just wouldn't stop typing.

Please do talk. I'm feeling understood and that's not something I get everyday.

Gods for people supporting lesbian comics some of y'all sure do hate asexuals...

All those people saying that "ace people being loved is unrealistic" can go fuck themselves, since they like it so much.

Well, isn't that me skipping through 90% of the stuff here because I want to know whether Asumi is going to find her childhood friend and the sex scenes are basically filler.

It might be best to wait till Asumi is over, and then skim the last 5-10 chapters. Sexual exploration and expression is an important part of the series, and I'd say the sex isn't filler so much as it's just not for you, which is entirely fair and very valid.

Since I think works like this, and works like Asumi, are both equally important even though they have opposite audiences. Getting more asexual and related LGBTQ media is important, just as LGBTQ media that embraces sex is also important. Having different forms of expression for different people and embracing all walks of life is valuable.

It might be best to wait till Asumi is over, and then skim the last 5-10 chapters.

I'm not overly invested in that particular series. I check it once in a blue moon to see how the plot is advancing. But I think you might be right about that.

I'd say the sex isn't filler so much as it's just not for you,

I just meant that it feels like filler (to me personally due to being ace), which is implied by context.

I don't think you can actually call a part of an original story "filler", can you? I mean, I usually see that term when an adaptation is deliberately deviating from the original series (e.g. in order to make time for the original series to catch up). But if there's a part of an original story that you don't like or feel is unnecessary, that's not filler, that's just a bit you don't like.

Since I think works like this, and works like Asumi, are both equally important even though they have opposite audiences. Getting more asexual and related LGBTQ media is important, just as LGBTQ media that embraces sex is also important. Having different forms of expression for different people and embracing all walks of life is valuable.

Never said anything different from that.

last edited at Aug 20, 2024 8:47PM

I'd say the sex isn't filler so much as it's just not for you,

I just meant that it feels like filler (to me personally due to being ace), which is implied by context.

I don't think you can actually call a part of an original story "filler", can you? I mean, I usually see that term when an adaptation is deliberately deviating from the original series (e.g. in order to make time for the original series to catch up). But if there's a part of an original story that you don't like or feel is unnecessary, that's not filler, that's just a bit you don't like.

I understood the context of you being Ace, that's why I also said "which is entirely fair and very valid". In my experience people commonly call everything filler that they're personally not into, and filler in that regard can be a bit over used in online discussions in my opinion. Since even if a person is not into something in a story it can be an important part of the narrative. Which again you being Ace and not interested in that type of material is entirely understandable.

Since I think works like this, and works like Asumi, are both equally important even though they have opposite audiences. Getting more asexual and related LGBTQ media is important, just as LGBTQ media that embraces sex is also important. Having different forms of expression for different people and embracing all walks of life is valuable.

Never said anything different from that.

I know, and I wasn't trying to argue or anything like that, only stating my own views.

I think we're on the same page of the most part? I also apologize if I came off as rude at all, as that wasn't my intent. I was only wanting to share my thoughts that both Ace works like this, and sexual works like Asumi, are both very valid forms of story telling. Since both works came up in the conversation. I hope we're on friendly terms though, and if I need to clear up anything I will. Otherwise I wish you well and maybe we'll converse again in the future on another story discussion.