At this point some o' y'all are just moving goalposts. Like, I get it, you hate Shiho and nothing she can do or say will ever satisfy you unless she straight-up turns into a completely different character. And that's your prerogative.

But don't act like she's still behaving like she did back when she was introduced or pretend her acknowledging her bitchy behavior (which really, in the end, is just what it was, nothing more) and apologizing didn't happen just because you disagree with her existence period.

Because clearly, your "objective literary analysis" is more tinged by personal views than y'all think it is and at this point it really shows.

Once again, for many of us the issue is not "liking or not liking Shiho" as an imaginary person--it's the quality of the writing, and what the author's conception of the character has done to the overall series.

Yeah you keep saying that but I don't really buy it. That's what I mean with my last sentence there: This isn't about quality at all, Shiho is a well-written character and the series as a whole is no worse off for having her in it than any other relationship drama series.
Indeed one could very well argue that the whole plot around her is what kept it going bc if all that came after Yori and Hima getting together was more YoriHima fluff then I daresay this series would've been concluded by now.

But bc you (generic you) think Shiho is a bad character and a detriment to the series it must be so, bc you're a paragon of literary analysis and you can do no wrong or smth. I'm being a tad facetious but that's how it comes across when you keep harping on about Shiho like she's exactly the same as back at her introduction

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 4:42PM

At this point some o' y'all are just moving goalposts. Like, I get it, you hate Shiho and nothing she can do or say will ever satisfy you unless she straight-up turns into a completely different character. And that's your prerogative.

But don't act like she's still behaving like she did back when she was introduced or pretend her acknowledging her bitchy behavior (which really, in the end, is just what it was, nothing more) and apologizing didn't happen just because you disagree with her existence period.

Because clearly, your "objective literary analysis" is more tinged by personal views than y'all think it is and at this point it really shows.

Once again, for many of us the issue is not "liking or not liking Shiho" as an imaginary person--it's the quality of the writing, and what the author's conception of the character has done to the overall series.

Yeah you keep saying that but I don't really buy it.

OK, if that's how arguments work, then I think you're lying when you say that you think the series is well-written.

At this point some o' y'all are just moving goalposts. Like, I get it, you hate Shiho and nothing she can do or say will ever satisfy you unless she straight-up turns into a completely different character. And that's your prerogative.

But don't act like she's still behaving like she did back when she was introduced or pretend her acknowledging her bitchy behavior (which really, in the end, is just what it was, nothing more) and apologizing didn't happen just because you disagree with her existence period.

Because clearly, your "objective literary analysis" is more tinged by personal views than y'all think it is and at this point it really shows.

Once again, for many of us the issue is not "liking or not liking Shiho" as an imaginary person--it's the quality of the writing, and what the author's conception of the character has done to the overall series.

Yeah you keep saying that but I don't really buy it.

OK, if that's how arguments work, then I think you're lying when you say that you think the series is well-written.

I'm not here to start a debate club with you, I'm just saying for all your going on about quality of writing (which is a pretty subjective thing to begin with), I haven't really seen any arguments for that other than "i don't enjoy how she's written, therefore it's bad writing" while there's at least some tangible evidence to the contrary like the manga's continuing serialization.

Which is fine in itself btw, when I say i think Shiho is well-written and good for the series, then that's also just my personal opinion, but then you could just say it like that instead of insisting your opinion is somehow the pinnacle of literary analysis.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 5:22PM

Most of you guys are arguing and here i am just enjoying the manga peacefully

Right? Everyone's debating the good and the bad of Shiho's character on the plot, and I'm just enjoying Yori/Shiho awkwardly apologizing/clearing things up, Yori trusting Hima to keep being Shiho's band manager, Hima helping Shiho try to text Aki, and what seems to be the start of Shiho/Aki proper. Why argue anything? Just enjoy this relatively drama free chapter where people communicated and cleared the air with each other lol.

I'm not here to start a debate club with you, I'm just saying for all your going on about quality of writing (which is a pretty subjective thing to begin with), I haven't really seen any arguments for that other than "i don't enjoy how she's written, therefore it's bad writing"

That is quite false, (or else you just haven't been paying attention). As has been mentioned several times before, Dynasty reader feihong has written two longish posts laying out the detailed case against how the character of Shiho has been handled in this story from the point of view of character development and the narrative relation of that character to other characters.

Despite your sneering, no one has claimed to be making the "pinnacle of literary analysis," just that many of the objections to this story are literary rather than simply a visceral dislike of an imaginary person.

Most of you guys are arguing and here i am just enjoying the manga peacefully

Right? Everyone's debating the good and the bad of Shiho's character on the plot, and I'm just enjoying Yori/Shiho awkwardly apologizing/clearing things up, Yori trusting Hima to keep being Shiho's band manager, Hima helping Shiho try to text Aki, and what seems to be the start of Shiho/Aki proper. Why argue anything? Just enjoy this relatively drama free chapter where people communicated and cleared the air with each other lol.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to a potential Shiho/Yori team up based on what Yori said during their conversation. Big turn of events when Shiho has to ask Yori for help/advice--especially musically. Plus next chapter comes out near Christmas. And it's mostly the same comments cut and paste every chapter, so that's whatever. Not the largest deal, anyway.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 6:01PM

That is quite false, (or else you just haven't been paying attention). As has been mentioned several times before, Dynasty reader feihong has written two longish posts laying out the detailed case against how the character of Shiho has been handled in this story from the point of view of character development and the narrative relation of that character to other characters.

You keep talking as if the first 15 chapters of the series had a higher narrative and literary quality than the rest of the series, when simply the first Arc of the manga was more aligned with your personal tastes.

And Shiho is more complex than the rest of the characters combined.

I'm not here to start a debate club with you, I'm just saying for all your going on about quality of writing (which is a pretty subjective thing to begin with), I haven't really seen any arguments for that other than "i don't enjoy how she's written, therefore it's bad writing" while there's at least some tangible evidence to the contrary like the manga's continuing serialization.

How is it that youre (correctly) pointing out that quality of writing is a subjective thing and thus different reads and evaluations of a series are valid, and then in the same post go "but actually i dont like ur opinion so its wrong/biased"
People have been and will keep sharing their opinions on this manga, wether positive or negative and noone has any duty to appeal to some imagined form of "objectivity" for you to like their criticism. If you think these opinions are dumb then nothing is stopping you from not interacting with them, as many are already doing.

I'm not here to start a debate club with you, I'm just saying for all your going on about quality of writing (which is a pretty subjective thing to begin with), I haven't really seen any arguments for that other than "i don't enjoy how she's written, therefore it's bad writing" while there's at least some tangible evidence to the contrary like the manga's continuing serialization.

How is it that youre (correctly) pointing out that quality of writing is a subjective thing and thus different reads and evaluations of a series are valid, and then in the same post go "but actually i dont like ur opinion so its wrong/biased"
People have been and will keep sharing their opinions on this manga, wether positive or negative and noone has any duty to appeal to some imagined form of "objectivity" for you to like their criticism. If you think these opinions are dumb then nothing is stopping you from not interacting with them, as many are already doing.

i don't think i said they're objectively wrong or anything like that? i'm not taking issue with their opinions on Shiho, just with how they're making them sound like objective assessments of quality with the way they phrase said opinions.
probably could've worded it better, the "tangible evidence" bit is more about success/popularity than "quality".

but y'know what, you're right, i shouldn't have started that line of rebuttal in the first place knowing full well there'd be nothing coming from it for anybody

I’ll comment on this since you’ve repeated it a few times and I'm a bit confused by it, so maybe you could clarify.

That Shiho said "As things are now, there is no real reason to resent her" (so she still thinks her hate was justified back when Aki did not reciprocate her feelings) shows she is still as shitty as before.

In the full quote you're cutting off she says “As far as she’s (Yori's) concerned, it was more me venting my frustrations (out on her), than anything, the way things are now, there’s no reason to resent her." What she actually says to Himari is not a statement justifying her behavior. This is a statement acknowledging that, in the end, Yori did nothing wrong and it was only Shiho deflecting from her issues with Aki. Shiho is the one doing the action in that sentence, grammatically. She is assigning herself blame and agency. That whole brief scene before the meet-up with Yori was Shiho recognizing and feeling guilty for how she treated Yori, obviously in her own way.

In fact, that recognized culpability is the reason she agrees to Himari’s request at all. It’s only after she verbally reacts and reacts through facial expressions, in a way clearly expressing regret, that she then agrees to have the uncomfortable conversation with Yori. She didn’t just flippantly agree to the meeting, as you've suggested previously. She clearly thought about it, as Himari laid out the request.

Then in the meeting, Shiho says " I’m sorry. To be honest with you, I got wrapped up in my own selfish emotions, I’ll try not to act weirdly towards you from now on.” Here, again she continues the trend of acknowledging her behavior towards Yori. There's nothing in the scene that hints at insincerity, actually the opposite. Her facial expressions are typical manga-visual-language often used to communicate regret, sincerity and remorse.

Whatever your opinion of Shiho, I’m not sure how you could read those scenes and come away believing she thinks she did nothing wrong, has no regrets, didn't mean it, or only agreed to meet Yori because she was asked and nothing more. Without being asked she might have avoided the conversation because she has an avoidant personality, but that doesn't mean she's not sincere here.

Lastly, the "unknowingly the cause of all this" thing was obviously a tongue-in-cheek joke and played as such. She is the "cause" but not the culprit.

Hello again! I will be glad to clarify.

What I think you missed is that she only says the first part about venting her frustrations. The second part about no reason for resentment anymore is actually a thought bubble, she does not say that out loud. That's why I only wrote about the second part, because this thought kinda invaluates the sentence she says out loud for me. She does not think "I was wrong", but that there is no reason to hate Yori any longer. While she may very well feel guilty, I can't disprove that, she also does not seem to feel that she was in the wrong either.

If her agreeing with the meeting was out of her own recognition of guilt, why did Hima still have to call in her favour, essentially paying her, to get her to meet Yori? (Which is what I said, I never said anything about her being flippant). Shiho should have told Hima "You know what, you are right, I need to talk to Yori anyway, since I fucked up. Keep your favour, I will treat you to Ice cream or something." Her not talking to Yori out of her free will is damaging, but you know what, her even talking to Yori is growth from Shiho, I'll admit.

But then, she still asks Yori for a favour. Not "I'll accept your decision", but "please do what I want". I think this also betrays Shiho motivations here. Her facial expressions showing regret could be seen as a negative, not matching the plot and inner workings of the character. Though I just read it as her being more suprised at Yori for her good nature, less regret for causing her pain.

And even if Shiho's apology was 100% sincere, it only came after she got what she wanted, which is crucial as well. We saw Shiho acting normally with her band mates, so we know she acts normally with people who she felt no antagonism for. After Shiho had no reason to feel antagonistic towards Yori, her acting normal towards her is not that new for Shiho. The change here is external, she got what she wanted, not internal.

So after all that time, did Shiho really overcame her main flaws? Would the same apology scene have happened if Aki was still in love with Yori? I highly doubt it. There is this annoying trend in media where characters have trauma (my mother abandoned me), and instead of working through that, they "solve" it by receving new information that shows they were wrong about the thing that caused their trauma (my mother did not abandon me after all, she wanted to protect me from the big bad!). Which is kind of what happened here. Shiho did not solve anything, she just had no reason to hate Yori anymore, so suddenly she can feel bad for her.

Don't get me wrong, of course this chapter shows groth for Shiho. It is just entirely too little too late at this point. To be hyperbolic, like negotiating Hitler down from 6 Million to 5 and getting the Nobel peace price ready.

edit:
Oh, almost forgot: Lastly, the joke seemed to me to be Yori being oblivious about being the cause, not that we should disagree with the text bubble. Given that within the story, both Aki and Yori blamed themselves for parts of this whole mess, I think my reading is more supported.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 9:10PM

Chapter so good it got posted twice.

It is just entirely too little too late at this point. To be hyperbolic, like negotiating Hitler down from 6 Million to 5 and getting the Nobel peace price ready.

You're aware that it's only been a few months since Shiho left the band and the most recent chapter, right?

I'll do one final long response and then bow out. I don't want to continue the train of these for too much longer.

What I think you missed is that she only says the first part about venting her frustrations. The second part about no reason for resentment anymore is actually a thought bubble, she does not say that out loud.

Both parts are thought bubbles. They use the same visual language that denotes thoughts (although small) and her mouth is deliberately closed in that panel. You just have to compare them to the actual speech bubbles directly below them. Regardless of that fact, neither of them invalidates the other, even if we pretend that one was said and the other thought. It is one continuous idea whether half spoken or not.

She does not think "I was wrong", but that there is no reason to hate Yori any longer.

No, she does not literally say "I was wrong," but everything else about her thoughts and mannerisms on the matter makes that clear. She says and thinks two key things: "As far as she’s (Yori's) concerned, it was more me venting my frustrations (out on her), than anything, the way things are now, there’s no reason to resent her" and "I’m sorry. To be honest with you, I got you wrapped up in my own selfish emotions, I’ll try not to act weirdly towards you from now on." Even ignoring all the visual cues and body language, if you can read those sentences and conclude that she is not taking at least some responsibility then, right there, we have the root of our disagreements in general.

If her agreeing with the meeting was out of her own recognition of guilt, why did Hima still have to call in her favor, essentially paying her, to get her to meet Yori?

This "favor" between them was a light thing that had no real weight behind it. What gave the favor weight was Shiho's feeling a bit guilty once Himari reminded her of the situation. She can also feel guilty and decide not to meet Yori. Those two things have nothing to do with one another. She is avoidant and did not want to have the meeting in order to avoid an uncomfortable conversation. As Himari explains the reasons for her request, Shiho recognizes the legitimacy of the request as she thinks about her culpability. She then decides to accept the request (the only thing she actually spoke), rather than deny it; because she recognizes that she is at some fault for getting "[Yori] wrapped up in [Shiho's] selfish emotions" and using Yori to "vent [her] frustrations." The "favor" is an easy excuse for her and just a vehicle. Either way, I don't share the fixation with the favor. She doesn't have to do things "perfectly" for what she does do to count.

Shiho should have told Hima...

Not getting into "shoulds"--is not really useful in my opinion. Every individual handles their issues differently and Shiho's pattern is that she is not straightforward and is evasive. She does not need to say the exact lines you want in order for what she says to carry the same meaning, for her. Most people are not direct in that way and will communicate indirectly whether through speech or body language. She is a tsundere type and is especially indirect, namely in these types of situations. There are more than enough thoughts, and verbal and body language cues to communicate her remorse.

But then, she still asks Yori for a favor.

Yes? That was the request from Himari. She asked Shiho to request this favor from Yori. That was the whole deal.

And even if Shiho's apology was 100% sincere, it only came after she got what she wanted, which is crucial as well.

Yes, it came once she was in a better headspace after reconciling with Aki. That does tend to happen. It's rare to apologize in the middle of an argument when you are not seeing things clearly. Most apologies come in retrospect, not really unique to Shiho.

Oh, almost forgot: Lastly, the joke seemed to me to be Yori being oblivious about being the cause, not that we should disagree with the text bubble. Given that within the story, both Aki and Yori blamed themselves for parts of this whole mess, I think my reading is more supported.

Yes, that was the joke. My response hasn't changed there. I'm not sure what your response changes there? She is oblivious (the joke) and is also "the cause" but that does not mean you are meant to treat her as the "culprit." It's a joke that she is at the center of everything without even realizing it.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 10:34PM

I'll do one final long response and then bow out. I don't want to continue the train of these for too much longer.

What I think you missed is that she only says the first part about venting her frustrations. The second part about no reason for resentment anymore is actually a thought bubble, she does not say that out loud.

Both parts are thought bubbles. They use the same visual language that denotes thoughts (although small) and her mouth is deliberately closed in that panel. You just have to compare them to the actual speech bubbles directly below them. Regardless of that fact, neither of them invalidates the other, even if we pretend that one was said and the other thought. It is one continuous idea whether half spoken or not.

She does not think "I was wrong", but that there is no reason to hate Yori any longer.

No, she does not literally say "I was wrong," but everything else about her thoughts and mannerisms on the matter makes that clear. She says and thinks two key things: "As far as she’s (Yori's) concerned, it was more me venting my frustrations (out on her), than anything, the way things are now, there’s no reason to resent her" and "I’m sorry. To be honest with you, I got you wrapped up in my own selfish emotions, I’ll try not to act weirdly towards you from now on." Even ignoring all the visual cues and body language, if you can read those sentences and conclude that she is not taking at least some responsibility then, right there, we have the root of our disagreements in general.

If her agreeing with the meeting was out of her own recognition of guilt, why did Hima still have to call in her favor, essentially paying her, to get her to meet Yori?

This "favor" between them was a light thing that had no real weight behind it. What gave the favor weight was Shiho's feeling a bit guilty once Himari reminded her of the situation. She can also feel guilty and decide not to meet Yori. Those two things have nothing to do with one another. She is avoidant and did not want to have the meeting in order to avoid an uncomfortable conversation. As Himari explains the reasons for her request, Shiho recognizes the legitimacy of the request as she thinks about her culpability. She then decides to accept the request (the only thing she actually spoke), rather than deny it; because she recognizes that she is at some fault for getting "[Yori] wrapped up in [Shiho's] selfish emotions" and using Yori to "vent [her] frustrations." The "favor" is an easy excuse for her and just a vehicle. Either way, I don't share the fixation with the favor. She doesn't have to do things "perfectly" for what she does do to count.

Shiho should have told Hima...

Not getting into "shoulds"--is not really useful in my opinion. Every individual handles their issues differently and Shiho's pattern is that she is not straightforward and is evasive. She does not need to say the exact lines you want in order for what she says to carry the same meaning, for her. Most people are not direct in that way and will communicate indirectly whether through speech or body language. She is a tsundere type and is especially indirect, namely in these types of situations. There are more than enough thoughts, and verbal and body language cues to communicate her remorse.

But then, she still asks Yori for a favor.

Yes? That was the request from Himari. She asked Shiho to request this favor from Yori. That was the whole deal.

And even if Shiho's apology was 100% sincere, it only came after she got what she wanted, which is crucial as well.

Yes, it came once she was in a better headspace after reconciling with Aki. That does tend to happen. It's rare to apologize in the middle of an argument when you are not seeing things clearly. Most apologies come in retrospect, not really unique to Shiho.

Oh, almost forgot: Lastly, the joke seemed to me to be Yori being oblivious about being the cause, not that we should disagree with the text bubble. Given that within the story, both Aki and Yori blamed themselves for parts of this whole mess, I think my reading is more supported.

Yes, that was the joke. My response hasn't changed there. I'm not sure what your response changes there? She is oblivious (the joke) and is also "the cause" but that does not mean you are meant to treat her as the "culprit." It's a joke that she is at the center of everything without even realizing it.

Huh, you are right, those are both thought bubbles, I missed that. Even then, I still think that the "no reason to resent her anymore" is crucial and paints the whole conversation in a negative light.

Look, like I said in my response, I already agreed Shiho showed some growth by feeling guilt here, I don't deny it. I just feel like it is not appropiate enough to the situation, not enough character growth has happened to justifiy the time and chapters spent.

While the whole apology might seem sincere on the surface, the context it is happening is important. First of all, as you and others already have wrote, the artwork does most of the work of making Shiho seem remorseful, not the things she actually said and thought. Then, Hima having to use her request for the talk to happen is important in principle. Albeit small, Hima earned that request by her work as a bandmanager, it is essentially payment for her time and effort. Her using it to help Shiho is her perogative and entirely in her character, it's part of why we love the little fluffball. But Shiho accepting it and needing a vehicle in the first place shows she has not really grown out of the person she was before. (Also, thank you for using "Fixation" to describe my investment in the argument there, I missed those passive-agressive little jabs of yours) Feeling remorse is easy, if you really value other people, your next step should be taking proactive actions to make up for what you caused.

In that vein, Shiho is not offering Yori anything, but asking for something. She could offer Yori singing lessons, for example, showing her pride in her talent and believed superiority, while still wanting to do good for her. I am not asking for much from her, just more than what we got. I am getting into "shoulds" here again to counteract "you just want Shiho to be completely different", which first of all, Chad-Yes to that. But jokes aside, I am okay with Shiho not being perfect, I don't demand that from anyone, I am even ok with Shiho still being somewhat shitty, it is part of her character after all. I just don't accept her still being this shitty after all this time.

I also don't really care if Shiho thinks that she is remorseful and apologetic. Thanos was genuinely sad when sacrificing Gamora, and he still thought that he was right.

And it is not like Shiho blew up ant Yori once and regretted it immediately afterwards, she was antagonistic for months. This doubles a a response to Kabu-, I am aware it has been months, this is part of the problem. Shiho has been this way for months, and as I said before, what changed was external, not internal. This is also crucial, if Shiho had not got what she wanted, none of this growth or remorse would have happened at all. Which is really weak. As things are now, I have no reason to believe that Shiho gets antagonistic again the second Aki leaves. Or someone knocks over her comically large lunchbox.

Regarding the joke, I feel like the use of "cause" here shifts at least part of the blame to Yori. "If only she did not show up, I would not have to leave the band and start this whole drama" - abuser-logic kind of thing, when with the way Shiho is, she might have reacted similar to other setbacks. That is why I would call Shiho the cause and Yori a catalyst. Because Aki falling in lough with Yori affected Shiho, but her reaction to that is what started all of it and affected other characters. Though I accept that this is just my way of looking at things and language in specific.

not enough character growth has happened to justifiy the time and chapters spent.

This is one of the main premises of the argument against this story arc in a nutshell—it’s been far too much ado about, ultimately, far too little.

I'm full of shit. I'll reply again, since I woke up and checked back.

not enough character growth has happened to justifiy the time and chapters spent

As an overview for this discussion and as a response to this point: At the end of the day, that's fair, for you. You think the hole was deeper than I and (I think I can say, generally) most others do, so you think more has to be done to fill it up. That's always been the core of the issue and that has to do with literary analysis but goes beyond just that (for everyone). We'll have to agree to disagree.

of all, as you and others already have wrote, the artwork does most of the work of making Shiho seem remorseful, not the things she actually said and thought.

Calling it "artwork" is way too extra-textual. In the context of the story its best to describe that as "her body language," which is very important for communicating our actual feelings. It wasn't like the author just put sparkles everywhere, it was actual physical reactions from a character. Her body language, coupled with the words she says, makes it clear that she is sincere. It doesn't make sense to try and separate her body language and facial expressions from her words and to treat body language like it doesn't count or to qualify it by referring to it as "artwork". The author included both for a reason.

But Shiho accepting it and needing a vehicle in the first place shows she has not really grown out of the person she was before.

She's never going to be "perfect." I wasn't debating that, but even you have said that she's grown. None of the way she behaves here is how she would have a few weeks ago. She has grown. She wanted to avoid the conversation and hadn't yet thought to meet with Yori. Himari sped up that realization but once she was confronted with it, Shiho understood her error with Yori and sincerely apologized. That's a good summation of that chapter, in my opinion.

Fixation

Passive aggressive? Because of that word? Well I can't do anything about that, I guess. Just chock it up to communicating through text. I've seen worse and much more direct stuff come my way, here.

In that vein, Shiho is not offering Yori anything, but asking for something

By "Yori" do you mean to say Hima, here? If not, again, Shiho isn't offering anything to Yori. Are you arguing she should be? The "request" is Hima's and she's asking Shiho to make the request for her. Yori doesn't ask for anything either. Shiho promises to treat Yori better and Yori defuses the situation because she apparently didn't care that much anyway, after talking with Hima a few chapters ago.

And it is not like Shiho blew up ant Yori once and regretted it immediately afterwards, she was antagonistic for months.

I think my earlier response still stands here: Yes, it came once she was in a better headspace after reconciling with Aki. That does tend to happen. It's rare to apologize in the middle of an argument when you are not seeing things clearly. Most apologies come in retrospect, not really unique to Shiho. Also keep in mind that she wasn't just dealing with her feelings for Aki. She was also still haunted by the death of her friend and the band's self imposed burden. That seems to be getting lost here but the lasting effects of that was the largest catalyst during these events and repeatedly focused on.

Regarding the joke, I feel like the use of "cause" here shifts at least part of the blame to Yori.

Well, we disagree. "Cause" is simply an observation. It is a fact that Yori's being at the center of Aki's affection was a cause in this chain of causes and effects. It's observationally true that she is at the center of it. Just acknowledging that something is part of a process doesn't assign blame. It's descriptive.

last edited at Nov 20, 2023 7:57AM

I am trying to seperate body language from the rest because they do not seem to fit together for me. She is drawn as to be repentive, but her actions, words and thoughts seem to counteract this to a certain degree, at least for me. To put it simply, she looks sorry, but she doesn't really feel it. With this in mind, the way Shiho is drawn could be seen as a negative because it does not matches her behaviour and thought process, instead of a confirmation that she does feel guilty(I am operating under the assumption that Shiho is not supposed to be manipulative here as far as the story is concerned). But this loops back around, if you think the apology here is sufficent, this disconnect does not show up for you, I guess. Apart from that, even if Shiho was 100 % sincere in her feelings, her actions still leave much to be desired, so we loop around again to my view of lacking character development.

Yes she has grown, but because of an external factor which did not prompt any real internal change. Like I said, if Aki leaves, I think it likely that Shiho will be acting similar to before, and is that really lasting growth?

Fixation has a clear negative connotation and implies irrationality. Think the conspiracy board meme from always sunny. If that was not your intention, that's fine.

Shiho asking for Hima to stay as manager is not a selfless, but a selfish act. From my point of view, Shiho genuinely likes Hima and wants her as a band manager, and Hima did a good job as well. So Hima staying is a net positive for Shiho, meanig her asking Yori that she can stay is not selfless act for Shiho in the least. She gets something she wants out of it. And yes, after months and loathing and trying to interfer in her relationship, Shiho offering something to Yori to make things up would have gone a long way to sell this apology to me.

Months should be ample time to cool down and realize you are in the wrong. But if Aki never gave in, I doubt Shiho would have ever changed, which is way I am putting importance on this point. I would accept your better headspace if what put her in a situation that made her realize the error of her ways was not getting served the very exact thing she was hating Yori over on a silver platter. She did not decide do let the hate go out of a revelation, she just lost any reason for hating her, which is weak to me. Like the example about trauma I brought up: Instead of working through the trauma and overcoming it, the reason for it just gets removed or changed.

To make a comparison: Let's assume you and your colleague both apply for a promotion at work, with you not knowing your colleague applied. You get the job, your colleague does not. This leads to your colleague hating you and treating you with disdain, going out of their way to antagonize you or hinder your work. After months, the same promotion is offered again, and this time your colleague gets it. Then they apologize to you for their behaviour while also asking help on a project from you at the same time. Hovewer, the talk only happened because another colleague who knows you both gives them 5 bucks to talk it out with you. Even if you accept this apology, can you see how observers who know the whole situation can see it as hollow?

TLDR: I don't think Shiho would have ever apologized to Yori whithout getting what she wanted as things stand, and this is not enough for me, not for a long shot.

Also: Yay, Blastaar-senpai noticed me!

Shiho asking for Hima to stay as manager is not a selfless, but a selfish act. From my point of view, Shiho genuinely likes Hima and wants her as a band manager, and Hima did a good job as well. So Hima staying is a net positive for Shiho, meanig her asking Yori that she can stay is not selfless act for Shiho in the least. She gets something she wants out of it.

You're forgetting that Hima wants to be their manager. This is something Hima is requesting after Shiho and the group discussed it chapters ago. Hima desires this but was shy about asking Yori directly, so she asks Shiho to do so for her. I think we're getting away from the original response: the main point was that Shiho didn't suddenly and randomly ask for a new favor from Yori, while apologizing. This was the request from Hima.

I'd disagree with your idea of her not growing, I think we're leaving out a lot of what's happened these last few chapters that represents her changes in thinking. It's also worth mentioning that it was Aki who wanted to reconnect with Shiho for a majority of the run and it was Shiho who was rejecting Aki and wanting Aki to leave her alone, until Shiho grows and develops over time. Aki is the one who pursued this and pushed for it with Hima. Aki is the one who introduced the band battle. Shiho remained in the story, primarily because Aki wouldn't let her disappear like Shiho (thought she) wanted. This is mostly Aki's desired ending. There's more to be said but this is already going longer than I wanted.

Anyway Shiho would act differently now, if she did lose Aki again (though not perfectly). I'd also disagree with your analogy as it leaves out a lot of nuance and isn't a 1-to-1 with this situation but I don't want to continue the long responses. It's too much to unpack (which is why I didn't respond to that other poster's longer criticism from weeks ago that keeps being cited) and I also think we risk repeating ourselves. We'll have to agree to disagree or I'll at least keep things shorter.

last edited at Nov 20, 2023 10:40AM

Shiho asking for Hima to stay as manager is not a selfless, but a selfish act. From my point of view, Shiho genuinely likes Hima and wants her as a band manager, and Hima did a good job as well. So Hima staying is a net positive for Shiho, meanig her asking Yori that she can stay is not selfless act for Shiho in the least. She gets something she wants out of it.

You're forgetting that Hima wants to be their manager. This is something Hima is requesting after Shiho and the group discussed it chapters ago. Hima desires this but was shy about asking Yori directly, so she asks Shiho to do so for her. I think we're getting away from the original response: the main point was that Shiho didn't suddenly and randomly ask for a new favor from Yori, while apologizing. This was the request from Hima.

I'd disagree with your idea of her not growing, I think we're leaving out a lot of what's happened these last few chapters that represents her changes in thinking. It's also worth mentioning that it was Aki who wanted to reconnect with Shiho for a majority of the run and it was Shiho who was rejecting Aki and wanting Aki to leave her alone, until Shiho grows and develops over time. Aki is the one who pursued this and pushed for it with Hima. Aki is the one who introduced the band battle. Shiho remained in the story, primarily because Aki wouldn't let her disappear like Shiho (thought she) wanted. This is mostly Aki's desired ending. There's more to be said but this is already going longer than I wanted.

Anyway Shiho would act differently now, if she did lose Aki again (though not perfectly). I'd also disagree with your analogy as it leaves out a lot of nuance and isn't a 1-to-1 with this situation but I don't want to continue the long responses. It's too much to unpack (which is why I didn't respond to that other poster's longer criticism from weeks ago that keeps being cited) and I also think we risk repeating ourselves. We'll have to agree to disagree or I'll at least keep things shorter.

Hima wants to be their manager as well, yes. This does not change the fact that Hima being Loreley's manager is something Shiho wants, those two facts are not mutually exclusive. And Hima's desire of Shiho and Yori getting along was a big part of why she asked Shiho to do it, not only because she did not want to bring it up herself. I don't think Hima was asking mostly for her own benefit, she just got better at getting Shiho to agree to stuff. She did not have much trouble of bringing up sensitive topics before, to Yori or others.

And I'm sorry, I know you want to keep things short, but assertions without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Also, mostly Aki's desired ending? Is there a single thing we now know Siho wanted at the beginning that she did not get in this conclusion?

And I'm sorry, I know you want to keep things short, but assertions without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

I said something here originally but it's not productive.

And Hima's desire of Shiho and Yori getting along was a big part of why she asked Shiho to do it, not only because she did not want to bring it up herself.

Hime explained her reasoning exactly, in the previous chapters. The band discussed how her "contract" was up and asked if she wanted to leave. She decided she wanted to stay, for sure, but worried about how Yori would feel if she did so. That was why she set the meeting up. Her desire to work with them was the central catalyst. Getting them together would make Yori more comfortable with her working with the band. It was a means to an end. She did not think of getting them together otherwise. In that moment she realized it would be better to have Shiho ask instead of herself, and she explained why this chapter. Even so I think this is getting too into the weeds. I don't share the opinion that this is an important detail either way.

Also, mostly Aki's desired ending? Is there a single thing we now know Siho wanted at the beginning that she did not get in this conclusion?

Shiho at the beginning did not want to rekindle her relationship with Aki. She wanted Aki to leave her alone. You can check the chapters yourself. Aki set up the meetings. Aki followed her. Aki stumbled into her. And so did Himari. Aki set up the battle. The whole arc was Shiho attempting to flee (both figuratively and literally) with Aki and Himari pulling her back in (both figuratively and literally).

Even Aki's final song was again meant to double down on this premise: Shiho threatening to leave for good, while Aki fights against the idea through her song. It was the push and pull of someone devolving into self harm (along with the collateral damage that comes with it) and someone else pulling her out of it. The ending benefits Shiho obviously but that's different from being what she wanted.

It seems like we've gotten the original desires of Aki and Shiho mixed up. I noticed someone else say this and I discussed it with them weeks ago as well. They realized that they'd forgotten earlier parts of the series; but maybe you do remember and still just disagree?

last edited at Nov 20, 2023 2:37PM

And I'm sorry, I know you want to keep things short, but assertions without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Without evidence? We've been discussing our viewpoints and explaining our positions. I'm not sure where I haven't provided evidence or explanations of my thinking? In this case, I'm not sure what further evidence I would even provide? The original response was my clarifying that Shiho is only asking because Hima asked her to do so. I clarified this simply because it seemed you thought Shiho was the one bringing up that favor of Yori. Maybe something is getting misunderstood here. It's not a major point either way.

And Hima's desire of Shiho and Yori getting along was a big part of why she asked Shiho to do it, not only because she did not want to bring it up herself.

Hime explained her reasoning exactly, in the previous chapters. The band discussed how her "contract" was up and asked if she wanted to leave. She decided she wanted to stay, for sure, but worried about how Yori would feel if she did so. That was why she set the meeting up. Her desire to work with them was the central catalyst. Getting them together would make Yori more comfortable with her working with the band. It was a means to an end. She did not think of getting them together otherwise. In that moment she realized it would be better to have Shiho ask instead of herself, and she explained why this chapter. Even so I think this is getting too into the weeds. I don't share the opinion that this is an important detail either way.

Also, mostly Aki's desired ending? Is there a single thing we now know Siho wanted at the beginning that she did not get in this conclusion?

Shiho at the beginning did not want to rekindle her relationship with Aki. She wanted Aki to leave her alone. As I said, Aki set up the meetings. Aki followed her. Aki stumbled into her. And so did Himari. Aki set up the battle. The whole arc was Shiho attempting to flee (both figuratively and literally) with Aki and Himari pulling her back in (both figuratively and literally).

Even Aki's final song was again meant to double down on this premise: Shiho threatening to leave for good, while Aki fights against the idea through her song. It was the push and pull of someone devolving into self harm (along with the collateral damage that comes with it) and another pulling her out of it.

It seems like we've gotten the original desires of Aki and Shiho mixed up. I noticed someone else say this and I discussed it with them weeks ago as well. They realized that they'd forgotten earlier parts of the series; but maybe you do remember and still just disagree?

The evidence part refered to your statement that the latest chapters showed Shiho's changes in thinking. I would need specific examples of that, since I dont't think so. Even so, since I am not happy with what caused these changes, should they have happened, it would do little for Shiho anyway.

And even if Hima was completely motivated by wanting to stay as manager, that still does not mean that Shiho would get nothing out of it.

With in the beginning, I meant chronologically within the story, not the order the chapters where presented in. Precisely before the moment she saw Aki being in love with Yori and ripped up her love letter like a total badass (This part is to be read with dripping sarcasm).

What did she want before then? To play good music with a competent band who took things seriously, to get to grips with her feelings about her dead acquintance (still not comfortable to call what we saw a friendship), and to get together with Aki. Now, at this latest chapter, it looks like she is going to get all that, not really through accomplishments of her own (apart from the music thing of course), but because other people looked out for her and offered it. She had enough development to not spit in those peoples faces for not being quick enough, I give you that.

Ultimately, it seems that we agree that Shiho is
A) a little shit
and
B) solely responsible for all that mess we had to sit through
and the only thing we disagree on is on orders of degree, for example if Shiho even deserves Aki or not. Which is totally fine with me.

last edited at Nov 20, 2023 2:42PM

Ultimately, it seems that we agree that Shiho is
A) a little shit
and
B) solely responsible for all that mess we had to sit through and the only thing we disagree on is on orders of degree, for example if Shiho even deserves Aki or not. Which is totally fine with me.

I don't think I'd agree to those terms, exactly, but without combing over every chapter in order to understand where the divergence comes from, there's not much else to be said without becoming repetitive. I guess all things considered, it's not too far off anyway. It was an interesting discussion. So thanks for that.

last edited at Nov 20, 2023 2:54PM

It is just entirely too little too late at this point. To be hyperbolic, like negotiating Hitler down from 6 Million to 5 and getting the Nobel peace price ready.

You're aware that it's only been a few months since Shiho left the band and the most recent chapter, right?

Moreover....Could we...not? compare the bitchy singer we don't like to Hitler and the Holocaust?

Even acknowledging that you're being hyperbolic, the fact that your mind even went there makes me question how rational you could possibly be about the topic.

Ok but seriously though,

I didn't expect Shiho to bring such a large bento everyday what, that was a funny detail.

And Aki bringing up where the contents of that bento usually go, as well...

Completely unexpected in a manga like this. I do like me some good fanservice, but I do hope it stays subtle, like Yori's long legs when she and Hima were trying out clothes on one of their dates.

And for the love of wholesomeness, please don't bring in a beach arc out of the blue!!

I hope Yori will find out someday that Aki loved her. This is just unfair.

Also, Shiho really is the main character now huh. Not that I'm complaining, she made this manga interesting.

last edited at Nov 22, 2023 7:33AM