Seo was ultimately a sociopath, she always was, and it is pretty sociopatic to go from "Who even cares about being good again" and "let's bomb this school"

The problem is that the timeline for this does not match up, Seo would have had to set the bombs up before the "who even cares about being good again" - moment. Sociopaths are about low impulse control and short-term actions, not macgyvering half a school to explode in case someone might tick them off that day.

At the end, I still hate that Ruri got actually traumatized by being shoved over in primary school. Most kids have at least a brawl around that time, along with bullying.

Also, I found it very funny that Seri's tough love with Shizuku in the last chapter helped Shizuku a great deal in the end, when her coddling of Ruri is very likely a big reason Ruri is still stuck in the past.

One could argue that it's a bit over-the-top, but it's the incident the two of them remember most- for Ruri, it was the first time Shizuku laid a hand on her, and for Shizuku, it was when she was confronted with the reality that she was bullying Ruri..

It also effectively sums up Shizuku's treatment of Ruri- if you look closely, Shizuku appeared to just give Ruri a light slap on the back, only for her to actually fall over, and Shizuku's expression was clearly surprised, horrified and/or guilty as that happened (even if she brushed it off when Seri confronted her).

That's an interesting take on Seri. She was also the first person who explicitly called Shizuku's treatment of Ruri bullying, hence Shizuku's shock; even the people who complained about Shizuku blaming Ruri for their loss in the volleyball game didn't use that word. One could also use that reasoning to conclude that while Seri was right that meeting Shizuku again was painful in the short term, in the long term, it actually helped her see how much Shizuku had changed and get her to take steps to change herself..

I personally think the decision to make it unintentional bullying weakens the plot. It makes everything feel like an over exaggeration. I would have preferred it if her bullying was a bit more intentional. Maybe not like super intense, but if she had been confronted with how she was affecting Ruri but kept up her treatment anyway "for her own good", it would have been more effective for me.

You are totally right. Shizuku has a really good, emotionally charged and deep redemption arc for something that does not warrant it. Heck, I have read stories about characters that killed people and had less of a redemption than Shizuku.
I guess the author thought that having Shizuku be an actual bully would turn the readers against her, but it would serve the story, imo. For comparisons sake, I thought Koe not Katachi did a good job of an actual bully getting redemption,

At the end, I still hate that Ruri got actually traumatized by being shoved over in primary school. Most kids have at least a brawl around that time, along with bullying.

Also, I found it very funny that Seri's tough love with Shizuku in the last chapter helped Shizuku a great deal in the end, when her coddling of Ruri is very likely a big reason Ruri is still stuck in the past.

Still not satisfied until we get a Phoenix Wright - style breakdown for Vice Prez.

Also that Seo vs Shiina thing is the most direct Sociopath vs Psychopath example I have ever seen.

On that note, I don't really find psychopath villians all that compelling, because most of the time they have no meaningful ideology they believe in, just extreme self-interest. Which can be fun in the right context, like in Die Hard. And there are of course rare examples of interesting psychopaths, like the antagonist of the first season of Psycho-Pass. But especially in a mistery series like this one, where unraveling why the actors do what and how is one of the main draws, the answer "oh she is just a psycho" feels unrewarding.

Well I've been in the "hating shiho" bandwagon for a long time and also believe that it's definitely too little too late, buck heck even if she's doing it out of obligation at least she said sorry and acknowledged (to herself) that she was antagonizing Yori and being a complete asshole to her. Like she's still an asshole but at least she's aware of it and is in character for her to not give a damn, so at least she's being consistent.
If this starts an upward trend of her realising how much of an ass she's been to everyone and apologize, even begrudgingly, it'll be a small W in my book. At least is way more enjoyable than her being an oblivious asshole to everyone, even if she's still far from being likable if handled well her "redemption arc" can at least be entertaining

Alas, looks like last chapter was all we are gonna get as far as redemption is concerned, if this chapter is anything to go by.

Calling it now, I am pointing my bat at the audience, we are never gonna get another apology from Shiho for her past behaviour for the rest of the series.

Funnily enough, I never got the feeling that Shiho was oblivious about being an asshole. There were scenes like her getting mildly criticized by her bandmates for antagonising Hima and Yori, where she acknowledges that it was not a nice thing to do. The story tries to justify her actions, which would be my main point of contention, but Shiho is aware what she is doing before her talk with Yori. That also why her apology fell flat to me, since that makes it more calculating.

erm... did the story just forget the setup that the girl who the Prez killed with lightning was very likely innocent? It was hinted that the whole oil switcheroo was Seo's doing anyway, and since she is basically Skeletor now, that seems increasingly plausible.
Then why is Vice Prez allowed to go out on a moral highnote here, leaving the gym like a badass and being admired by Satsuki, whith the very obvious and easy counter of "apart from acting out of fear and a superiority complex, you guys were not infallible and did and would have continued to kill innocent people" is never used.

The ONLY point the Prez had against Satsuki was the butterfly effect thing, that Satsuki saving people is causing the high numbers of deadly accidents, and that was conjecture at best. The whole justification angle with Seo falls totally flat. If you save someone who commits evil deeds later you had no possiblity or reason to see coming, you are not at fault. As if a fire fighter who pulls out a person from a burning building who secretly is a serial killer and continues to kill afterwards is somehow at fault for that.

I mean, Satsuki just accepting fault for things and not making an effort to defend herself has been there since chapter 1 and we have narrative reasons for it, but after many chapters of making friends and receiving emotional support, the character development we get for her is her wanting to die. Frigging A+.

Only the readers and most likely Miho (from stealing Michiru's phone) know about the oil switcheroo, there's no way to hang it over prez and vice prez so far and it's entirely possible Miho will reveal it to make Seo's position even worse, in which case vice prez would have to be faced with the knowledge prez killed an innocent. Satsuki's state of mind is heavily altered from everything that's been going on and she's never been eloquent enough to effectively argue for her beliefs. Vice prez didn't get the moral high ground, Satsuki just admired her for managing to keep it together despite prez's death. If we're to believe the story is on route to replicate what we saw at the beginning of chapter 1, then Satsuki will convince herself the choices she made were sound, whether that will be just a coping mechanism or not. As for your firefighter example, you can bet many people who unknowingly save a serial killer would feel some responsibility over it. It's not a black and white matter.

Well, given that Satsuki believed the girl about the oil, she should have known about it and investigated accordingly. But the fact that we as readers know about it is enough. Vice Prez gets a triumphant scene that portrays her and the Prez in a positive light, when we as readers know about information that incriminates them, but is not featured. Vice Prez gets to aspouse her viewpoint of Satsuki being at fault for Prez's death unchallenged, with no mention of the obvious point that Prez got killed by someone he tried to kill, which could be considered fair game in some circumstances.
Even without the oil thing, I don't think it is even mentioned once within the story that Prez could be wrong when choosing a victim.

Granted, some of my criticism could be eleviated by future chapters, I just got the feeling that this Vice Prez scene was very final, she literally and figuratevly left the building, so to speak. I fear that she is not gonna feature much in the future, and we never get Prez's ideas and ideology challenged in any meaningful way.

erm... did the story just forget the setup that the girl who the Prez killed with lightning was very likely innocent? It was hinted that the whole oil switcheroo was Seo's doing anyway, and since she is basically Skeletor now, that seems increasingly plausible.
Then why is Vice Prez allowed to go out on a moral highnote here, leaving the gym like a badass and being admired by Satsuki, whith the very obvious and easy counter of "apart from acting out of fear and a superiority complex, you guys were not infallible and did and would have continued to kill innocent people" is never used.

The ONLY point the Prez had against Satsuki was the butterfly effect thing, that Satsuki saving people is causing the high numbers of deadly accidents, and that was conjecture at best. The whole justification angle with Seo falls totally flat. If you save someone who commits evil deeds later you had no possiblity or reason to see coming, you are not at fault. As if a fire fighter who pulls out a person from a burning building who secretly is a serial killer and continues to kill afterwards is somehow at fault for that.

I mean, Satsuki just accepting fault for things and not making an effort to defend herself has been there since chapter 1 and we have narrative reasons for it, but after many chapters of making friends and receiving emotional support, the character development we get for her is her wanting to die. Frigging A+.

And I'm sorry, I know you want to keep things short, but assertions without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Without evidence? We've been discussing our viewpoints and explaining our positions. I'm not sure where I haven't provided evidence or explanations of my thinking? In this case, I'm not sure what further evidence I would even provide? The original response was my clarifying that Shiho is only asking because Hima asked her to do so. I clarified this simply because it seemed you thought Shiho was the one bringing up that favor of Yori. Maybe something is getting misunderstood here. It's not a major point either way.

And Hima's desire of Shiho and Yori getting along was a big part of why she asked Shiho to do it, not only because she did not want to bring it up herself.

Hime explained her reasoning exactly, in the previous chapters. The band discussed how her "contract" was up and asked if she wanted to leave. She decided she wanted to stay, for sure, but worried about how Yori would feel if she did so. That was why she set the meeting up. Her desire to work with them was the central catalyst. Getting them together would make Yori more comfortable with her working with the band. It was a means to an end. She did not think of getting them together otherwise. In that moment she realized it would be better to have Shiho ask instead of herself, and she explained why this chapter. Even so I think this is getting too into the weeds. I don't share the opinion that this is an important detail either way.

Also, mostly Aki's desired ending? Is there a single thing we now know Siho wanted at the beginning that she did not get in this conclusion?

Shiho at the beginning did not want to rekindle her relationship with Aki. She wanted Aki to leave her alone. As I said, Aki set up the meetings. Aki followed her. Aki stumbled into her. And so did Himari. Aki set up the battle. The whole arc was Shiho attempting to flee (both figuratively and literally) with Aki and Himari pulling her back in (both figuratively and literally).

Even Aki's final song was again meant to double down on this premise: Shiho threatening to leave for good, while Aki fights against the idea through her song. It was the push and pull of someone devolving into self harm (along with the collateral damage that comes with it) and another pulling her out of it.

It seems like we've gotten the original desires of Aki and Shiho mixed up. I noticed someone else say this and I discussed it with them weeks ago as well. They realized that they'd forgotten earlier parts of the series; but maybe you do remember and still just disagree?

The evidence part refered to your statement that the latest chapters showed Shiho's changes in thinking. I would need specific examples of that, since I dont't think so. Even so, since I am not happy with what caused these changes, should they have happened, it would do little for Shiho anyway.

And even if Hima was completely motivated by wanting to stay as manager, that still does not mean that Shiho would get nothing out of it.

With in the beginning, I meant chronologically within the story, not the order the chapters where presented in. Precisely before the moment she saw Aki being in love with Yori and ripped up her love letter like a total badass (This part is to be read with dripping sarcasm).

What did she want before then? To play good music with a competent band who took things seriously, to get to grips with her feelings about her dead acquintance (still not comfortable to call what we saw a friendship), and to get together with Aki. Now, at this latest chapter, it looks like she is going to get all that, not really through accomplishments of her own (apart from the music thing of course), but because other people looked out for her and offered it. She had enough development to not spit in those peoples faces for not being quick enough, I give you that.

Ultimately, it seems that we agree that Shiho is
A) a little shit
and
B) solely responsible for all that mess we had to sit through
and the only thing we disagree on is on orders of degree, for example if Shiho even deserves Aki or not. Which is totally fine with me.

last edited at Nov 20, 2023 2:42PM

Shiho asking for Hima to stay as manager is not a selfless, but a selfish act. From my point of view, Shiho genuinely likes Hima and wants her as a band manager, and Hima did a good job as well. So Hima staying is a net positive for Shiho, meanig her asking Yori that she can stay is not selfless act for Shiho in the least. She gets something she wants out of it.

You're forgetting that Hima wants to be their manager. This is something Hima is requesting after Shiho and the group discussed it chapters ago. Hima desires this but was shy about asking Yori directly, so she asks Shiho to do so for her. I think we're getting away from the original response: the main point was that Shiho didn't suddenly and randomly ask for a new favor from Yori, while apologizing. This was the request from Hima.

I'd disagree with your idea of her not growing, I think we're leaving out a lot of what's happened these last few chapters that represents her changes in thinking. It's also worth mentioning that it was Aki who wanted to reconnect with Shiho for a majority of the run and it was Shiho who was rejecting Aki and wanting Aki to leave her alone, until Shiho grows and develops over time. Aki is the one who pursued this and pushed for it with Hima. Aki is the one who introduced the band battle. Shiho remained in the story, primarily because Aki wouldn't let her disappear like Shiho (thought she) wanted. This is mostly Aki's desired ending. There's more to be said but this is already going longer than I wanted.

Anyway Shiho would act differently now, if she did lose Aki again (though not perfectly). I'd also disagree with your analogy as it leaves out a lot of nuance and isn't a 1-to-1 with this situation but I don't want to continue the long responses. It's too much to unpack (which is why I didn't respond to that other poster's longer criticism from weeks ago that keeps being cited) and I also think we risk repeating ourselves. We'll have to agree to disagree or I'll at least keep things shorter.

Hima wants to be their manager as well, yes. This does not change the fact that Hima being Loreley's manager is something Shiho wants, those two facts are not mutually exclusive. And Hima's desire of Shiho and Yori getting along was a big part of why she asked Shiho to do it, not only because she did not want to bring it up herself. I don't think Hima was asking mostly for her own benefit, she just got better at getting Shiho to agree to stuff. She did not have much trouble of bringing up sensitive topics before, to Yori or others.

And I'm sorry, I know you want to keep things short, but assertions without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Also, mostly Aki's desired ending? Is there a single thing we now know Siho wanted at the beginning that she did not get in this conclusion?

I am trying to seperate body language from the rest because they do not seem to fit together for me. She is drawn as to be repentive, but her actions, words and thoughts seem to counteract this to a certain degree, at least for me. To put it simply, she looks sorry, but she doesn't really feel it. With this in mind, the way Shiho is drawn could be seen as a negative because it does not matches her behaviour and thought process, instead of a confirmation that she does feel guilty(I am operating under the assumption that Shiho is not supposed to be manipulative here as far as the story is concerned). But this loops back around, if you think the apology here is sufficent, this disconnect does not show up for you, I guess. Apart from that, even if Shiho was 100 % sincere in her feelings, her actions still leave much to be desired, so we loop around again to my view of lacking character development.

Yes she has grown, but because of an external factor which did not prompt any real internal change. Like I said, if Aki leaves, I think it likely that Shiho will be acting similar to before, and is that really lasting growth?

Fixation has a clear negative connotation and implies irrationality. Think the conspiracy board meme from always sunny. If that was not your intention, that's fine.

Shiho asking for Hima to stay as manager is not a selfless, but a selfish act. From my point of view, Shiho genuinely likes Hima and wants her as a band manager, and Hima did a good job as well. So Hima staying is a net positive for Shiho, meanig her asking Yori that she can stay is not selfless act for Shiho in the least. She gets something she wants out of it. And yes, after months and loathing and trying to interfer in her relationship, Shiho offering something to Yori to make things up would have gone a long way to sell this apology to me.

Months should be ample time to cool down and realize you are in the wrong. But if Aki never gave in, I doubt Shiho would have ever changed, which is way I am putting importance on this point. I would accept your better headspace if what put her in a situation that made her realize the error of her ways was not getting served the very exact thing she was hating Yori over on a silver platter. She did not decide do let the hate go out of a revelation, she just lost any reason for hating her, which is weak to me. Like the example about trauma I brought up: Instead of working through the trauma and overcoming it, the reason for it just gets removed or changed.

To make a comparison: Let's assume you and your colleague both apply for a promotion at work, with you not knowing your colleague applied. You get the job, your colleague does not. This leads to your colleague hating you and treating you with disdain, going out of their way to antagonize you or hinder your work. After months, the same promotion is offered again, and this time your colleague gets it. Then they apologize to you for their behaviour while also asking help on a project from you at the same time. Hovewer, the talk only happened because another colleague who knows you both gives them 5 bucks to talk it out with you. Even if you accept this apology, can you see how observers who know the whole situation can see it as hollow?

TLDR: I don't think Shiho would have ever apologized to Yori whithout getting what she wanted as things stand, and this is not enough for me, not for a long shot.

Also: Yay, Blastaar-senpai noticed me!

I'll do one final long response and then bow out. I don't want to continue the train of these for too much longer.

What I think you missed is that she only says the first part about venting her frustrations. The second part about no reason for resentment anymore is actually a thought bubble, she does not say that out loud.

Both parts are thought bubbles. They use the same visual language that denotes thoughts (although small) and her mouth is deliberately closed in that panel. You just have to compare them to the actual speech bubbles directly below them. Regardless of that fact, neither of them invalidates the other, even if we pretend that one was said and the other thought. It is one continuous idea whether half spoken or not.

She does not think "I was wrong", but that there is no reason to hate Yori any longer.

No, she does not literally say "I was wrong," but everything else about her thoughts and mannerisms on the matter makes that clear. She says and thinks two key things: "As far as she’s (Yori's) concerned, it was more me venting my frustrations (out on her), than anything, the way things are now, there’s no reason to resent her" and "I’m sorry. To be honest with you, I got you wrapped up in my own selfish emotions, I’ll try not to act weirdly towards you from now on." Even ignoring all the visual cues and body language, if you can read those sentences and conclude that she is not taking at least some responsibility then, right there, we have the root of our disagreements in general.

If her agreeing with the meeting was out of her own recognition of guilt, why did Hima still have to call in her favor, essentially paying her, to get her to meet Yori?

This "favor" between them was a light thing that had no real weight behind it. What gave the favor weight was Shiho's feeling a bit guilty once Himari reminded her of the situation. She can also feel guilty and decide not to meet Yori. Those two things have nothing to do with one another. She is avoidant and did not want to have the meeting in order to avoid an uncomfortable conversation. As Himari explains the reasons for her request, Shiho recognizes the legitimacy of the request as she thinks about her culpability. She then decides to accept the request (the only thing she actually spoke), rather than deny it; because she recognizes that she is at some fault for getting "[Yori] wrapped up in [Shiho's] selfish emotions" and using Yori to "vent [her] frustrations." The "favor" is an easy excuse for her and just a vehicle. Either way, I don't share the fixation with the favor. She doesn't have to do things "perfectly" for what she does do to count.

Shiho should have told Hima...

Not getting into "shoulds"--is not really useful in my opinion. Every individual handles their issues differently and Shiho's pattern is that she is not straightforward and is evasive. She does not need to say the exact lines you want in order for what she says to carry the same meaning, for her. Most people are not direct in that way and will communicate indirectly whether through speech or body language. She is a tsundere type and is especially indirect, namely in these types of situations. There are more than enough thoughts, and verbal and body language cues to communicate her remorse.

But then, she still asks Yori for a favor.

Yes? That was the request from Himari. She asked Shiho to request this favor from Yori. That was the whole deal.

And even if Shiho's apology was 100% sincere, it only came after she got what she wanted, which is crucial as well.

Yes, it came once she was in a better headspace after reconciling with Aki. That does tend to happen. It's rare to apologize in the middle of an argument when you are not seeing things clearly. Most apologies come in retrospect, not really unique to Shiho.

Oh, almost forgot: Lastly, the joke seemed to me to be Yori being oblivious about being the cause, not that we should disagree with the text bubble. Given that within the story, both Aki and Yori blamed themselves for parts of this whole mess, I think my reading is more supported.

Yes, that was the joke. My response hasn't changed there. I'm not sure what your response changes there? She is oblivious (the joke) and is also "the cause" but that does not mean you are meant to treat her as the "culprit." It's a joke that she is at the center of everything without even realizing it.

Huh, you are right, those are both thought bubbles, I missed that. Even then, I still think that the "no reason to resent her anymore" is crucial and paints the whole conversation in a negative light.

Look, like I said in my response, I already agreed Shiho showed some growth by feeling guilt here, I don't deny it. I just feel like it is not appropiate enough to the situation, not enough character growth has happened to justifiy the time and chapters spent.

While the whole apology might seem sincere on the surface, the context it is happening is important. First of all, as you and others already have wrote, the artwork does most of the work of making Shiho seem remorseful, not the things she actually said and thought. Then, Hima having to use her request for the talk to happen is important in principle. Albeit small, Hima earned that request by her work as a bandmanager, it is essentially payment for her time and effort. Her using it to help Shiho is her perogative and entirely in her character, it's part of why we love the little fluffball. But Shiho accepting it and needing a vehicle in the first place shows she has not really grown out of the person she was before. (Also, thank you for using "Fixation" to describe my investment in the argument there, I missed those passive-agressive little jabs of yours) Feeling remorse is easy, if you really value other people, your next step should be taking proactive actions to make up for what you caused.

In that vein, Shiho is not offering Yori anything, but asking for something. She could offer Yori singing lessons, for example, showing her pride in her talent and believed superiority, while still wanting to do good for her. I am not asking for much from her, just more than what we got. I am getting into "shoulds" here again to counteract "you just want Shiho to be completely different", which first of all, Chad-Yes to that. But jokes aside, I am okay with Shiho not being perfect, I don't demand that from anyone, I am even ok with Shiho still being somewhat shitty, it is part of her character after all. I just don't accept her still being this shitty after all this time.

I also don't really care if Shiho thinks that she is remorseful and apologetic. Thanos was genuinely sad when sacrificing Gamora, and he still thought that he was right.

And it is not like Shiho blew up ant Yori once and regretted it immediately afterwards, she was antagonistic for months. This doubles a a response to Kabu-, I am aware it has been months, this is part of the problem. Shiho has been this way for months, and as I said before, what changed was external, not internal. This is also crucial, if Shiho had not got what she wanted, none of this growth or remorse would have happened at all. Which is really weak. As things are now, I have no reason to believe that Shiho gets antagonistic again the second Aki leaves. Or someone knocks over her comically large lunchbox.

Regarding the joke, I feel like the use of "cause" here shifts at least part of the blame to Yori. "If only she did not show up, I would not have to leave the band and start this whole drama" - abuser-logic kind of thing, when with the way Shiho is, she might have reacted similar to other setbacks. That is why I would call Shiho the cause and Yori a catalyst. Because Aki falling in lough with Yori affected Shiho, but her reaction to that is what started all of it and affected other characters. Though I accept that this is just my way of looking at things and language in specific.

I’ll comment on this since you’ve repeated it a few times and I'm a bit confused by it, so maybe you could clarify.

That Shiho said "As things are now, there is no real reason to resent her" (so she still thinks her hate was justified back when Aki did not reciprocate her feelings) shows she is still as shitty as before.

In the full quote you're cutting off she says “As far as she’s (Yori's) concerned, it was more me venting my frustrations (out on her), than anything, the way things are now, there’s no reason to resent her." What she actually says to Himari is not a statement justifying her behavior. This is a statement acknowledging that, in the end, Yori did nothing wrong and it was only Shiho deflecting from her issues with Aki. Shiho is the one doing the action in that sentence, grammatically. She is assigning herself blame and agency. That whole brief scene before the meet-up with Yori was Shiho recognizing and feeling guilty for how she treated Yori, obviously in her own way.

In fact, that recognized culpability is the reason she agrees to Himari’s request at all. It’s only after she verbally reacts and reacts through facial expressions, in a way clearly expressing regret, that she then agrees to have the uncomfortable conversation with Yori. She didn’t just flippantly agree to the meeting, as you've suggested previously. She clearly thought about it, as Himari laid out the request.

Then in the meeting, Shiho says " I’m sorry. To be honest with you, I got wrapped up in my own selfish emotions, I’ll try not to act weirdly towards you from now on.” Here, again she continues the trend of acknowledging her behavior towards Yori. There's nothing in the scene that hints at insincerity, actually the opposite. Her facial expressions are typical manga-visual-language often used to communicate regret, sincerity and remorse.

Whatever your opinion of Shiho, I’m not sure how you could read those scenes and come away believing she thinks she did nothing wrong, has no regrets, didn't mean it, or only agreed to meet Yori because she was asked and nothing more. Without being asked she might have avoided the conversation because she has an avoidant personality, but that doesn't mean she's not sincere here.

Lastly, the "unknowingly the cause of all this" thing was obviously a tongue-in-cheek joke and played as such. She is the "cause" but not the culprit.

Hello again! I will be glad to clarify.

What I think you missed is that she only says the first part about venting her frustrations. The second part about no reason for resentment anymore is actually a thought bubble, she does not say that out loud. That's why I only wrote about the second part, because this thought kinda invaluates the sentence she says out loud for me. She does not think "I was wrong", but that there is no reason to hate Yori any longer. While she may very well feel guilty, I can't disprove that, she also does not seem to feel that she was in the wrong either.

If her agreeing with the meeting was out of her own recognition of guilt, why did Hima still have to call in her favour, essentially paying her, to get her to meet Yori? (Which is what I said, I never said anything about her being flippant). Shiho should have told Hima "You know what, you are right, I need to talk to Yori anyway, since I fucked up. Keep your favour, I will treat you to Ice cream or something." Her not talking to Yori out of her free will is damaging, but you know what, her even talking to Yori is growth from Shiho, I'll admit.

But then, she still asks Yori for a favour. Not "I'll accept your decision", but "please do what I want". I think this also betrays Shiho motivations here. Her facial expressions showing regret could be seen as a negative, not matching the plot and inner workings of the character. Though I just read it as her being more suprised at Yori for her good nature, less regret for causing her pain.

And even if Shiho's apology was 100% sincere, it only came after she got what she wanted, which is crucial as well. We saw Shiho acting normally with her band mates, so we know she acts normally with people who she felt no antagonism for. After Shiho had no reason to feel antagonistic towards Yori, her acting normal towards her is not that new for Shiho. The change here is external, she got what she wanted, not internal.

So after all that time, did Shiho really overcame her main flaws? Would the same apology scene have happened if Aki was still in love with Yori? I highly doubt it. There is this annoying trend in media where characters have trauma (my mother abandoned me), and instead of working through that, they "solve" it by receving new information that shows they were wrong about the thing that caused their trauma (my mother did not abandon me after all, she wanted to protect me from the big bad!). Which is kind of what happened here. Shiho did not solve anything, she just had no reason to hate Yori anymore, so suddenly she can feel bad for her.

Don't get me wrong, of course this chapter shows groth for Shiho. It is just entirely too little too late at this point. To be hyperbolic, like negotiating Hitler down from 6 Million to 5 and getting the Nobel peace price ready.

edit:
Oh, almost forgot: Lastly, the joke seemed to me to be Yori being oblivious about being the cause, not that we should disagree with the text bubble. Given that within the story, both Aki and Yori blamed themselves for parts of this whole mess, I think my reading is more supported.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 9:10PM

Where did you read that Shiho actually feels bad for Yori? I did not get that, her line that there is not really a reason to hate her anymore makes me assume the opposite, actually.

In fact, in the strict sense of the term there was never a “reason” for Shiho to hate Yori in the first place. Yori was unaware of Aki’s feelings for Yori, and Aki was unaware of Shiho’s feelings for her, making for an incredibly weak foundation for the ensuing cathedral of angst.

I know, and we have said as much in the comments since day one. That Shiho said "as things are now, there is no real reason to resent her" (so she still thinks her hate was justified back when Aki did not reprociate her feelings) shows she is still as shitty as before. So all this time and focus and her character moved forward about two centimeters.

But hey, we very likely will get a new couple out of this, and that is all that counts, right...?

erm... yes, of course? If someone who wronged you says to you "i guess i am sorry" in a sarcastic tone and spits afterwards, do you really accept that as a sincere apology?

Shiho's apology was self-serving. The conversation only happened because Hina spent her favor on it (given that the favor could have been used to gain ressources or time, Hina essentially had to "pay" Shiho to even talk to Yoru), it happened not because she felt bad for causing Yoru grief, but because she had "no reason to hate her anymore" - i. e. got what she wanted - and it had an ulterior motive, she wanted to keep Hina as a manager.

The apology was totally in character, which in my opinion is the most important thing. And she does feel bad about the way she mistreated Yori all this time for selfish reasons...

Hey, I totally agree that the apology was in character, that is the problem. Once again it comes back to the way Shiho is treated by the story vs. the way she actually is in the story. Here it is treated by story and characters like the situation is resolved and Shiho is forgiven, when the apology was not even genuine. The story says Shiho has changed, but shows us that she actually has not.

Where did you read that Shiho actually feels bad for Yori? I did not get that, her line that there is not really a reason to hate her anymore makes me assume the opposite, actually. What specific details are you basing that on? I'm curious.

Most of you guys are arguing and here i am just enjoying the manga peacefully

That's the best way.

Well, I am still enjoying the manga, albeit for different reasons, and I have not punched anybody in the face over it either, so I guess peacefully enjoying is applicable to me to. Depends on your definition of peaceful, i guess.

Some people really went from complaining about Shiho not apologizing (even going as far as to claim that she wouldn't do it) to complaining about the way she apologized.

erm... yes, of course? If someone who wronged you says to you "i guess i am sorry" in a sarcastic tone and spits afterwards, do you really accept that as a sincere apology?

Shiho's apology was self-serving. The conversation only happened because Hina spent her favor on it (given that the favor could have been used to gain ressources or time, Hina essentially had to "pay" Shiho to even talk to Yoru), it happened not because she felt bad for causing Yoru grief, but because she had "no reason to hate her anymore" - i. e. got what she wanted - and it had an ulterior motive, she wanted to keep Hina as a manager.

The only way this apology could have been worse is if Yoru acted all cold and bitchy during it. And though I personally don't believe in it, this could be interpreted as been on purpose to manipulate Yoru.

All in all, that weakass apology leaves much to be desired. In a better story, this would be actually a great move, showing that Shiho did not change, even if she is no longer directly combative, at least on the surface, and foreshadow a big fallout later. Here, it just is business as usual, which is amusing in its own way.

YOOOOOOO, I totally missed this last month but our favorite music shop gays have been licensed in Germany by Carlsen Comics under their Hayabusa label!! First volume comes out in August '24, hecking heck! \o/

Another entry for my "GL manga licensed in German but not in English" list

Hey, can you help a german brother out and let me see that list? Highly interested. For example, "Black & White" from Sal Jiang is on volume 2 in Germany, which is more chapters than has been posted here on Dynasty.

Oh boy, this chapter really segmented the warped morality this manga is operating under for me.

Your comment was posted before I finished typing mine so I'm slightly editing.

You bring up a lot of good points that I missed about the apology. I'm still happy with what was shown in this chapter, but I agree it hasn't addressed everything and possibly never will. I think I also didn't blink about the flaws because I'm so used to this sort of brushing aside wrongs and characters saying stuff like "oh it's ok we should've known this so we were the ones that were wrong!" in Japanese media that I just sigh and move on because my expectations on how well they handle these types of issues are on the floor.

Don't get me wrong, I see it as a positive that an apology happened at all, but it was so limp-wristed it barely counts as one. The fact that Hina was the one that had to use her favor to get Shiho to talk to Yori at all, is worse enough, but what I missed to comment the first time is that the motivation for Shiho is still self-serving: She wants Hina to keep being her manager. So this apology is not happening for Yori's sake, or god forbid a feeling of regret, but simply to get something out of it.

It is kinda amazing that Shiho is such a consistently written thoroughly selfish character without the story noticing it. Like, for Shiho to be written that way at every opportunity, the author has to know what she is doing, right? But then why is that never brought up within the story? That contrast is simply baffling. It has been stated here since the beginning of this arc that Shiho does not feel that she fits with the rest of the characters, and that feeling only got stronger over time. These interactions are like Heather Chandler getting isekaied into the Carebears universe.

So while I still enjoy this manga, albeit for other reasons than the author intended propably, I don't have high hopes for the quality ticking up again. For me, I would want to see real growth from Shiho after all this time we spent with her. That would mean Aki not being romatically interested in her, and Shiho accepting this and keep being friends with her. Given that Aki asked her out on a date, I highly doubt it is gonna go this route, unless Shiho's shittyness is contagious and Aki is deliberately messing with her. And as highly cathartic as that would be, it would ruin Aki's character even more.

Oh boy, this chapter really segmented the warped morality this manga is operating under for me.

This is not redemption for Shiho, not for a long shot. She had to be forced to apologize by Hina, and more importantly she states herself that she is apologizing not for being in the wrong, but because there is no reason to hate Yori anymore (as if there was any reason to hate her in the first place). She has not changed, she simply got what she wanted.

Also, while the story at least acknowlegdes some of Shiho's wrongdoings, it continues the trend of other characters simply laughing it off or seeking fault with themselves where there is none. Yori accepting some fault here for simply existing, and the story itself labelling her the cause of the whole thing (when she was merely a catalyst, the cause was Shiho not getting what she wanted) leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Thank god for the comment that labeled the discussion on plot or writing in this forum "a complete cesspool of negativity that could destroy any positive feelings someone has toward this series", that gave me a good laugh. If your love is so weak it can be destroyed by some criticism, it was shallow and surface-level in the first place.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 4:36AM

Yeah I think there are two possibilities, people who side with Shiho just to be contrarian and others who really like her character design so they're willing to forgive or even forget anything, because if all she did was just play music and have an unrequited love then no problem, but she made sure to make her problem, a problem for eeeveryone.

I mean, i can also just... like Shiho as an entertaining character in this story who imo makes it better/more entertaining by being in it? While also acknowledging that, if she was a real person, I'd probably never be in contact with her at all bc fuck that noise.
Haven't really kept count over the last 50-odd pages but I don't think many ppl who like Shiho (as a character) ever actually argued that she's an angel who has done no wrong (except for the memes maybe idk).

tl;dr Appreciating a character =/= condoning their behavior, is what i'm getting at

To summarize the substantive discussions around Shiho in the last 50 pages of this forum: it was about writing quality. Leaving aside jokes, there was a lot of discussion and arguments about how Shiho made the writing, and therefore the story, worse by being in it. So the exact opposite view you and many Shiho fans have. This discrepancy is bound to lead to discourse.

Granted, you wrote "more entertaining", which is purely subjective and no statement about quality. If your meaning of better is "i like it more / find it more entertaining", then more power to you, there is nothing i want to add to or contest then. If we are talking about craftsmanship, plot holes and consintent character writing, and you are stating Shiho made THOSE better, i. e. of a higher quality, then i would argure against that.

So it was never about Shiho being a terrible character, but a terribly written terrible character.

I had a lot of fun both with the manga and in the forum due to the drop in writing quality around Shiho, so you could say my overall enjoyment of the manga increased, but I will not attribute this increase of joy with an increase of quality. Maybe I would have enjoyed a competently written Shiho Arc way more, who knows.

P.S. there were enough people unironically agreeing with Shiho and saying she did no wrong or was justified in her actions, sadly enough.

Glad I am not the only one being reminded of Young Ladies don't play fighting games, though the comparison was not a good one for me. I hate trashtalk, did not like it there, and do not like it here.

"Hey, let's play together - LOL you suck"
That is some LTG - shit right there

All I could think when the two of them were playing was "OK, so the new girl is a really shit drummer then."
Like, if you're drumming to try to make the other instruments disappear, you're DOING IT WRONG.

I dunno, I'm not into this. I mean, ooh, they're subverting a silly old trope that has only been subverted, I dunno, ten million times already. We've long since reached the point where the subversion IS the cliche.

Also this. A band is supposed to be a harmony, not a fight for attention between the members. That can work, especially in rock, but only when all the band members are on the same page that this is what is supposed to be going on.

I am gonna check out the next chapter, mainly because I like the protag, but if the other girl stays that way, I might drop this sooner than later.

She's a kid in a school that is incredicly oppressive, it's probably the first time in her life that she's been able to just let it all out. I think the dynamic is supposed to be that Suzunomiya slowly starts taming Kurogane through their relationship & Suzunomiya goes back to being herself when they are together. Add in parts where she's like "I know the real you", and there might be an arc where the rest of the girls realise that they aren't prim ladies at all, it's a nice dynamic and I don't think it's supposed to be taken seriously, mostly just to get you to recoil in the first chapter.

We actually don't know how oppressive that school is yet, the protag is hiding her love for rock to fit in with the other girls in an effort to adjust to her new familiy. We have not been shown any signs that the school forbids rock or anything. The protag never mentions being regulated by the school in any way. For example, the protag held on to the pick not because she feared retalitation from the school for her or the owner, but because she did not want to out herself to her peers. That makes me think that it is only social pressure that the protag creates herself. Maybe her family or new father is oppressive, though I would prefer it to be something entirely in the protags mind.
But even so, lashing out at a innocent bystander -to put it dramatically - is shit behaviour, no matter how oppressed you are. So I also hope that the story goes in a "Taming of the Trashtalker" - direction.
The "not supposed to be taking it seriously" - defence only works for me for clearly absurd comedies like Leslie Nielsen or Monthy Python movies. I know why the scene is here, to set up conflict between the two leads, shock value and comedy, but the exectution is lacking IMO.

I'm a little confused why people are criticizing Kurogane for being a poor bandmate when they aren't actually, you know, in a band (yet). >

Because it is shit behaviour, to put it simply. I think I wrote that it would only be ok if they were in a band and had that established style. To go into a bit more detail: She invited someone to play a song together, which is supposed to be a collaborative effort, then did not adjust to her partner, but actively tried to overshadow her. That would be like me invinting you to a chess game, then proceed to flip the board over, throw the pieces at you and then boast of my physical prowess and call you a looser for not flipping the board before me, when you were rightly assuming that a normal game of chess was supposed to be happening.
In contrast to this, in Bocchi the Rock, the main character is seen as a bad guitarist by her bandmates at first, because she cannot adjust to the other members and play accordingly, because she was used to playing on her own.
I think another problem with this scene is that it is not exactly clear what the drum girl is actually supposed to be doing. Since we can't hear the music, the scene can be interpreted differently. What I think the author wanted to convey was that drum girl simply played "better" than the protagonist, setting her up as a foil. Maybe she was freestyling, or following the beat and notes flawlessly etc. But the scene could also be seen as her simply drowing the protag out with noise, which is very easy to do with drums. This in turn makes her shittalking even worse, since in this case she is boasting despite basically bringing a gun to a knife fight.

Glad I am not the only one being reminded of Young Ladies don't play fighting games, though the comparison was not a good one for me. I hate trashtalk, did not like it there, and do not like it here.

"Hey, let's play together - LOL you suck"
That is some LTG - shit right there

All I could think when the two of them were playing was "OK, so the new girl is a really shit drummer then."
Like, if you're drumming to try to make the other instruments disappear, you're DOING IT WRONG.

I dunno, I'm not into this. I mean, ooh, they're subverting a silly old trope that has only been subverted, I dunno, ten million times already. We've long since reached the point where the subversion IS the cliche.

Also this. A band is supposed to be a harmony, not a fight for attention between the members. That can work, especially in rock, but only when all the band members are on the same page that this is what is supposed to be going on.

I am gonna check out the next chapter, mainly because I like the protag, but if the other girl stays that way, I might drop this sooner than later.

Please feel free to tell me about all the other good things Shiho has done. Take your time, I will wait.

As I wrote a couple of months ago, Shiho is doing her best (along with Momoka and Hajime) to keep the memory of her former friend/rival, Kyou, alive, and honor her, which is nothing to scoff at. Especially considering that she formed her current band at a moment when she wanted to quit music altogether. I say this because I think that many readers underestimate the weight that her death had on Shiho. Even the fact that she chose to play the guitar (Kyou's favorite instrument) after their fight can be understood as Shiho's way of staying connected to her.

Ok, that was my fault, should have been more specific. Tell me about good things she did for other people. Her way of dealing with her grief of Kyou could be seen as entirely self-serving. But let us be charitable and say she did it as much to help Momoka and Hajime as for herself. Even then, this counts as much as the one brazilian goal in the 7:1 match against Germany: Technially a hit, but entirely too little too late.

Of course Kyou's death has had an enormous effect on Shiho (although I also agree that they were not really friends, they did not have much of a relationship before Shiho started to hate her as far as I recall), but the problem is it made her more of a bitch instead of less of one. I wrote a while back that in the flashbacks, Shiho showed signs of becoming a better person before starting Lorelei. Though that was before her whole backstory with them and Kyou turned out to be a front for her temper-trantrum about Aki anyway.

Of course, this simple pattern gets uprouted by our complex, tangled emotions, so we are all to happy to break the pattern for people we feel empathy towards. Which can be a good thing, since the Code of Hammurabi is not exactly the peak legal system of humanity, IMO. In this case, however, it just means people who don't care to assign blame for Shiho's objective faults like her enough to pattern-break, and the rest do not. Nothing all too complicated or surprising.

We're closer to something, somewhat agreeable I guess but not really there. For example, your characterization of "not caring to assign blame for Shiho's faults" is a bit hollow (unless you're just grouping every person who disagrees with you into the same pot of beliefs). I'm not sure where I've not assigned her blame or fault for something? Not fixating on blame is not disregarding culpability. Regardless, I'm not surprised by reactions, they've been mostly predictable, for better or worse. It's just necessary to mention when things become a bit messy and unproductive.

Well, my point of contention is that Shiho is not blamed for her behaviour within the story. So maybe a better way of putting it would be "not caring about Shiho being blamed by/within the story", instead of not assigning blame yourself. If we agree that Shiho has faults and what these are, and you simply prefer the resolution and don't care about these faults being adressed or Shiho suffering external consequences, while I do, that is a simple matter of preference/priorities. Which is absolutely fine. If you allow me to be flippant for a moment: It is ok to like bad writing.

To extend an olive branch: I am aware that my reaction to Shiho is an emotional one, though the writing does not do it any favors either. I simply watched too much stuff like RE:Creators and IBO S2 and really hate it in stories when antagonistic characters get away scot-free with the shit they pulled. You are free to call my dislike of Karma-Houdinis "fixating on blame", of course.

How was Aki's love unhealthy? I don't think it has ever affected her, or anyone else, negatively. It was unrequited, but she took it like a champ. She accepted that Yori did not love her back, stayed friends and did her best to not let her love influence her behaviour, until she was ready to move on. I would say that is a pretty much textbook how to do case.

Unhealthy in the sense that it was something she was struggling to get over, struggling to understand her feelings with this new change. Shiho's appearance came at a perfect or (maybe I should say) "useful" time for Aki. It gave Aki something to fixate on and prioritize over dealing with her lose of Yori. Yes, Aki wasn't self sabotaging or acting in a destructive way but she verbalized her discomfort and uncertainty about her future and place on a couple occasions. Shiho came right after Aki lost Yori. Her introduction directly cut into the beginnings of Aki's road to accepting her loss. We don't really know if things would have become worse over time but we do know that Aki was still transitioning then, and was still unsure of where she could stand. Through these events with Shiho, Aki could right what she felt was an old wrong, get her mind off her heartache with Yori but most importantly, recontextualize her relationship with Yori and Hime (which she does quite a bit during this arc and talks about).

Gonna have to hard disagree here. Struggle in and of itself is not only not unhealthy, is is a necessary component for humans to stay mentally healthy. Sounds a bit shitty, but I did not design the way we operate. Humans need struggle in our life, we need adversity, problems to solve and challenge to grow from. This has also been observed in animals, see the Universe 25 - study (a warning for the uninitiated - not a light read). The way we react to struggle can and often is unhealthy, but just struggling with something can also be a positive sign of growth.

Now, within the story it is correct that Shiho is what triggered the change in Aki, but doubt it was necessary. IMO, Aki would have overcome it on her own or through a different trigger, albeit later in life, maybe after graduating. I just hate the execution of it all, with Aki showing more regret than Shiho ever did.

Also, it seems that people keep saying they are upset with this chapter because Aki is the one who apologized and Shiho didn't... but I didn't take any of what Aki said as an apology. She does kinda indirectly say she was wrong, so maybe people consider that an apology? To me, she just said they were both misunderstanding, or "didn't know who they really were" so now that they do know, now that the air is cleared, she would like to start over. And I think that's great. I think that's awesome writing.

Nice, I was waiting for your response, honestly. It's turned into a bit of a mess. And agreed about what Aki's doing here. But I already mentioned the fixation with blame, external punishment and this tiresome (and sometimes oddly flippant) Aki vs. Shiho thing. They both feel guilty for different things, for sure and by the nature of her character much of Shiho's "punishment" is internal and self inflicted. What's important is that Aki (with some help) succeeds in saving Shiho from her unhealthy desire for self destructive isolation (as well as her unhealthy relationship to music that connects to her insecurities) and while doing so Aki is saved/saves herself, inadvertently through Shiho's antics, from her unhealthy unrequited love. I don't know that she would have moved on from her crush had it not been for these very trying and emotional events that were strong enough to pull her attention for such a long period of time. They both reset their relationship to each other but also within themselves so it'll be interesting to see how they are after everything. I imagine they'll have more interactions in the future to flesh their new status out and talk more. They only separated a couple months ago so it's not like it's been years. Everything doesn't need to be said all at once.

How was Aki's love unhealthy? I don't think it has ever affected her, or anyone else, negatively. It was unrequited, but she took it like a champ. She accepted that Yori did not love her back, stayed friends and did her best to not let her love influence her behaviour, until she was ready to move on. I would say that is a pretty much textbook how to do case.

Also the "fixation on blame and external punishment" is simply how the human mind works. We humans are BIG on pattern recognition, and that is part of the reason we abhor unfairness. "If you do good, good things should happen to you" and "If you do bad, bad things should happen to you" is a very simple pattern we understand and prefer since it helps living in a group, and we are social animals. That is why there are so many stories where the good guy wins in the end, because anything else, while being more realistic, just feels wrong.

Of course, this simple pattern gets uprouted by our complex, tangled emotions, so we are all to happy to break the pattern for people we feel empathy towards. Which can be a good thing, since the Code of Hammurabi is not exactly the peak legal system of humanity, IMO. In this case, however, it just means people who don't care to assign blame for Shiho's objective faults like her enough to pattern-break, and the rest do not. Nothing all too complicated or surprising.