I'm also interested to see whether the organization's reconcile. I didn't expect so, but both sides have been getting development to be more gray than they first appeared. (Babylon is working to protect the refugees by killing those who would profit off their plight, while the Church is fomenting armed attacks and riots)

Although Babylon's theoretical motives are kind of positive, my understanding is that that is not who they have been killing. To the contrary, they have been attempting to keep things calm so that change can (in theory) happen naturally in the longer term, by killing refugee leaders who agitate too much. Which makes sense if you believe the idea that the underclass ever naturally gets anywhere without struggle from below, or that unrest by disliked minority groups is just counterproductive to their situation because it invites backlash. I by and large don't (e.g. American gay rights began moving forward with the Stonewall riots), so that leaves Babylon an outfit that kills to maintain the unjust status quo while telling themselves they're on the side of the angels.

And indeed by this point it may be precisely because Babylon eliminated all sources of not-so-violent resistance, say potential union leaders and so on, that the church is driven to supporting all out violent insurrection as the only remaining option.

She's laying the ground work for a new tool

Alice is entering wonderland

I'm also interested to see whether the organization's reconcile. I didn't expect so, but both sides have been getting development to be more gray than they first appeared. (Babylon is working to protect the refugees by killing those who would profit off their plight, while the Church is fomenting armed attacks and riots)

Although Babylon's theoretical motives are kind of positive, my understanding is that that is not who they have been killing. To the contrary, they have been attempting to keep things calm so that change can (in theory) happen naturally in the longer term, by killing refugee leaders who agitate too much. Which makes sense if you believe the idea that the underclass ever naturally gets anywhere without struggle from below, or that unrest by disliked minority groups is just counterproductive to their situation because it invites backlash. I by and large don't (e.g. American gay rights began moving forward with the Stonewall riots), so that leaves Babylon an outfit that kills to maintain the unjust status quo while telling themselves they're on the side of the angels.

And indeed by this point it may be precisely because Babylon eliminated all sources of not-so-violent resistance, say potential union leaders and so on, that the church is driven to supporting all out violent insurrection as the only remaining option.

That's possible, however my memory is that they were targeting lowlifes and organized crime people. Ones who would give the refugees a bad name, or exploit them.

Obviously, you can still debate whether their approach is positive or likely to succeed at all (I doubt it), but I'm pretty sure they weren't supposed to be targeting "good" people.

b) I love the fact that most of the comments here have basically decided that Gina’s insult for the government agency is now its official moniker.

I honestly forgot that's where it came from. Babylon vs. Our Lady of Ammunition.

Although Babylon's theoretical motives are kind of positive, my understanding is that that is not who they have been killing. To the contrary, they have been attempting to keep things calm so that change can (in theory) happen naturally in the longer term, by killing refugee leaders who agitate too much.

You said this in two different comments, but where did you get that idea?
We've seen Rose killing a drug dealer, and Babylon themselves have said they are killing criminals, so ... why are you getting the idea they're oppressing the refugees when their stated goals are literally the opposite of that?

Edit: In my head, I was relating your opinion to your politics (i.e. the idea that the church has that violence is literally the only way to enact change, so anyone against that is a bad guy), but then I realised it seems like they want to take out "influential leaders" by wanting to take out some of the church.
But they want to take out the church literally only because the church has that dirt on them and is trying to take them down. Now maybe with a side of armed revolt. So no, it's not them killing people who are influential leaders.

last edited at Jul 14, 2023 8:19PM

Feels rather like Benika will start championing the refugee cause too ...

Yeah, definitely. Hibai thinks she's scaring Benika off, but I guarantee she'll come out of this far more sympathetic to the refugees' situation and Rose's struggles in particular.

I think the real question here is, will Hibai and Gina end up wanting to help Rose and Benika? They seem set up to be a personal bridge between the two organizations and our protagonists.

I'm also interested to see whether the organization's reconcile. I didn't expect so, but both sides have been getting development to be more gray than they first appeared. (Babylon is working to protect the refugees by killing those who would profit off their plight, while the Church is fomenting armed attacks and riots)

Through the power of Benikas' expanded knowledge and sympathy,Rose will then have the power needed to carve a path for each other once Benika finds out the truth.

But then Rose will need a lot more help in order to carve that path big enough to get all the refugees out of their dead end lives due to Benikas' insistence.

Most interesting indeed.

Although Babylon's theoretical motives are kind of positive, my understanding is that that is not who they have been killing. To the contrary, they have been attempting to keep things calm so that change can (in theory) happen naturally in the longer term, by killing refugee leaders who agitate too much.

You said this in two different comments, but where did you get that idea?

I suppose it's open to SOME interpretation, but I got it from this line:
"Our influence exists only because we sow accidents among the refugees, namely those who threaten the peace or otherwise prove detrimental to the administration"
"Even if it means condemning them to oppression and exploitation?"
"They will not remain outsiders forever"

That kind of sounds to me like what I was talking about.

This is definitely gonna backfire.

Although Babylon's theoretical motives are kind of positive, my understanding is that that is not who they have been killing. To the contrary, they have been attempting to keep things calm so that change can (in theory) happen naturally in the longer term, by killing refugee leaders who agitate too much.

You said this in two different comments, but where did you get that idea?

I suppose it's open to SOME interpretation, but I got it from this line:
"Our influence exists only because we sow accidents among the refugees, namely those who threaten the peace or otherwise prove detrimental to the administration"
"Even if it means condemning them to oppression and exploitation?"
"They will not remain outsiders forever"

That kind of sounds to me like what I was talking about.

Right, yeah, that's what I thought, but reading it again is starker. The organization is definitely a force for the status quo, and huge assholes, either way. They clearly don't have a problem with murder and seem to believe in some long-term assimilation or something. I mostly got the positive part from how the Bishop states that they both started with the hope of helping the refugees, but disagreed over methods. So I assumed that was still the goal.

I suppose it's open to SOME interpretation, but I got it from this line:
"Our influence exists only because we sow accidents among the refugees, namely those who threaten the peace or otherwise prove detrimental to the administration"
"Even if it means condemning them to oppression and exploitation?"
"They will not remain outsiders forever"

That kind of sounds to me like what I was talking about.

Your interpretation seems correct to me, but I get the feeling this was kind of a retcon by the author. The other person was also correct that the people shown to be assassinated originally were both gang members, not refugee leaders. Of course, they had to start with that concept for anybody to be remotely sympathetic to the murderer main character, and I think they maybe lost sight of that when it came time to expand on the factional motivations...

At least, that's my impression. So far I've felt this is more like a "turn your brain off" spy flick than some kind of intricate, masterfully crafted plot.

But, on that note while my brain is on, the defense provided by 'Babylon' for not helping the refugee situation doesn't make any sense to me. They contend that the refugees should be accepted without using force -- and that's literally Babylon's schtick. We got treated to a whole monologue by her about how good they are at causing undetectable 'accidents'. If that's the case, it would be simple for them to remove a few powerful figures who stand as obstacles to refugee rights, without getting the refugees themselves embroiled in conflict or the use of force.

In the end, for me at least, I think this manga is more enjoyable if I don't think about it too much. Some things are just meant to be fun and entertaining on a surface level rather than deeply analysed.

Although Babylon's theoretical motives are kind of positive, my understanding is that that is not who they have been killing. To the contrary, they have been attempting to keep things calm so that change can (in theory) happen naturally in the longer term, by killing refugee leaders who agitate too much.

You said this in two different comments, but where did you get that idea?

I suppose it's open to SOME interpretation, but I got it from this line:
"Our influence exists only because we sow accidents among the refugees, namely those who threaten the peace or otherwise prove detrimental to the administration"
"Even if it means condemning them to oppression and exploitation?"
"They will not remain outsiders forever"

That kind of sounds to me like what I was talking about.

Right, yeah, that's what I thought, but reading it again is starker. The organization is definitely a force for the status quo, and huge assholes, either way. They clearly don't have a problem with murder and seem to believe in some long-term assimilation or something. I mostly got the positive part from how the Bishop states that they both started with the hope of helping the refugees, but disagreed over methods. So I assumed that was still the goal.

I really don't understand why campaigning for change, but not through violence is ever considered being "a force for the status quo", which is 100% why I can't agree with any of you. If it's not a violent revolution, it's not worth it? Some things just take time.

While I do think Babylon is hypocritical since they kill people, there is a world of difference between murder and war, though.

I really don't understand why campaigning for change, but not through violence is ever considered being "a force for the status quo"

But they do use violence against refugees. According to her, they assassinate refugees, which is practically the definition of a force working for the status quo. You can't say that refugees aren't allowed to use violence to accomplish their goals when you're using violence yourself to oppress them.

Some things just take time.

I'll just leave this here...

I had also hoped that the white moderate would reject the myth concerning time in relation to the struggle for freedom. I have just received a letter from a white brother in Texas. He writes: "All Christians know that the colored people will receive equal rights eventually, but it is possible that you are in too great a religious hurry. It has taken Christianity almost two thousand years to accomplish what it has. The teachings of Christ take time to come to earth." Such an attitude stems from a tragic misconception of time, from the strangely irrational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills. Actually, time itself is neutral; it can be used either destructively or constructively. More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will. We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people. Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men willing to be co workers with God, and without this hard work, time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation.

last edited at Jul 15, 2023 5:43AM

I had also hoped that the white moderate would reject the myth concerning time in relation to the struggle for freedom. I have just received a letter from a white brother in Texas. He writes: "All Christians know that the colored people will receive equal rights eventually, but it is possible that you are in too great a religious hurry. It has taken Christianity almost two thousand years to accomplish what it has. The teachings of Christ take time to come to earth." Such an attitude stems from a tragic misconception of time, from the strangely irrational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills. Actually, time itself is neutral; it can be used either destructively or constructively. More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will. We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people. Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men willing to be co workers with God, and without this hard work, time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation.

It’s hard to understand how much others have suffered when white people and their ancestors have enjoyed/inherited power and privilege for countless generations. Also, marginalized groups have been anything but silent. For the most part, they’re just not in positions of power to actually make those changes happen. What the fuck do supporters of those who want to maintain the status quo expect? A revolution or coup d'é·tat of some sort? I guess when this your average mindset it’s no wonder the struggle for equality is so difficult and enduring.

last edited at Jul 15, 2023 9:03AM

A quiet chapter but wow what a chapter it actually is, Benika stopping a thief and then immediately being confronted with the fact that the vigilante group she handed him over to will literally just kill their prisoners when they feel they have commited "serious enough" crimes. With explicitly no oversight from the greater judicial system.

And their lightning held in fist armbands which are certainly not meant to be reminiscent of uhh literal fascist groups huh.

Haha oh man this sucks.

last edited at Jul 16, 2023 12:22PM

And their lightning held in fist armbands which are certainly not meant to be reminiscent of uhh literal fascist groups huh.

Guess the lightning bolt kinda is, but the clenched fist is if anything a symbol of socialism, so ...

Anyway. Still don't really get how this is supposed to convince Benika of anything but that the refugees need to get every help they can possibly get ^^;

And their lightning held in fist armbands which are certainly not meant to be reminiscent of uhh literal fascist groups huh.

Guess the lightning bolt kinda is, but the clenched fist is if anything a symbol of socialism, so ...

Anyway. Still don't really get how this is supposed to convince Benika of anything but that the refugees need to get every help they can possibly get

Yeah I was moreso looking at the lightning bolt since fascists love their lightning bolts, and the clenched fist is actually symbol for tons of different groups from all over the political spectrum though the benign versions like the black power fist are admittedly the most well-known but there are also versions used by fascist groups additionally I should have made a greater note of how they're apparently putting the skulls of everyone they've killed in a big totem for everyone to see and like I don't think that's something you do if your goals are anything less than extremely malicious.

Also yeah unless miss spy is going to turn around and say "and Rose is actually an active agent of this oppressive regime working as an assassin" which is unlikely considering she works for that regime herself. I don't think she'll manage to scare Benika away, it seems a lot more likely Benika will be developing a life-long belief that the refugees need to be treated better instead.

last edited at Jul 16, 2023 1:04PM

Damn, that's harsh life...

Good lord, Benika! Didn’t have to scald the man.

Also, was that implying that some of the fuel is human remains? Because I feel like the smell would be a lot harder to bear in that case. In either case, I get the feeling that whatever fuel the government is supplying the refugees with isn’t particularly healthy.

And their lightning held in fist armbands which are certainly not meant to be reminiscent of uhh literal fascist groups huh.

Guess the lightning bolt kinda is, but the clenched fist is if anything a symbol of socialism, so ...

Anyway. Still don't really get how this is supposed to convince Benika of anything but that the refugees need to get every help they can possibly get

Yeah I was moreso looking at the lightning bolt since fascists love their lightning bolts, and the clenched fist is actually symbol for tons of different groups from all over the political spectrum though the benign versions like the black power fist are admittedly the most well-known but there are also versions used by fascist groups additionally I should have made a greater note of how they're apparently putting the skulls of everyone they've killed in a big totem for everyone to see and like I don't think that's something you do if your goals are anything less than extremely malicious.

Also yeah unless miss spy is going to turn around and say "and Rose is actually an active agent of this oppressive regime working as an assassin" which is unlikely considering she works for that regime herself. I don't think she'll manage to scare Benika away, it seems a lot more likely Benika will be developing a life-long belief that the refugees need to be treated better instead.

The SS’s lightning bolt is definitely a popular symbol among facists, but I don’t think that’s what that patch was meant to be invoking. It’s got two curves, where lightning bolts normally are drawn with one, and I’ve never heard of the lightning bolt being displayed clenched in a fist (although I’m admittedly not terribly up to date with modern facist symbolism). If anything, it looked more like a snake to me.

It would also be weird for her to pull back the curtain on the assassin game, since she’s also risk outing herself as a spy. Unless, she’s planning to catch Rose in the act, or frame her as a vigilante.

Probably frame or that she has a touch existence and do you want that baggage.

This will probably make Benika want to help her more

I like this look into refugee life. Instead of the refugee crisis being a distant plot point, the author is putting it right in front of our faces.

Good lord, Benika! Didn’t have to scald the man.

Also, was that implying that some of the fuel is human remains? Because I feel like the smell would be a lot harder to bear in that case. In either case, I get the feeling that whatever fuel the government is supplying the refugees with isn’t particularly healthy.

I think the implication for the fuel was that it is fuel they get given to cremate people with, after executing them/if someone dies, and the fuel they don't end up using for that purpose is fuel they sell to the other refugees to use.

how they're apparently putting the skulls of everyone they've killed in a big totem for everyone to see and like I don't think that's something you do if your goals are anything less than extremely malicious.

It's pretty easy for me to think of this as not inherently malicious. Whether it's actually effective or not, one of the common reasons people support a death penalty is that they believe it's a deterrent to crime. If you are so inclined to that belief, publicly displaying executions and/or their aftermath is a natural extension of trying to deter crime.

I don't think the intended interpretation here is that the vigilantes are supposed to be fascist, or generally evil, at all. The point of this chapter is showing that life is incredibly harsh in the refugee camp, and they do whatever they must do to survive. It's all well and good to say that people should be imprisoned or rehabilitated for their crimes from a position of privilege, but when feeding a bunch of prisoners means you or your innocent children starve to death, you probably won't have the same feeling of moral absolutism about it. The reality is that a humane justice system is a luxury afford by societal wealth.

The ones actually morally in the wrong here are the government, not the refugee vigilantes, for explicitly excluding refugees from the justice system. That's a fascist policy at work.

The ones actually morally in the wrong here are the government, not the refugee vigilantes, for explicitly excluding refugees from the justice system. That's a fascist policy at work.

fair enough though I would say that if you're a willing participant in fascist policy, in this case being part of the vigilante group then you're not causing the problem but you are helping continue it.

So I agree with you that the government is ultimately responsible for creating this situation but the vigilante group and its members have some amount responsibility in perpetrating it. Even if they themselves believe they are doing a good thing by getting rid of the "undesirables" given that even in a functioning judicial system innocent people can be punished by faulty processes, and in a vigilante situation like this one, I would be surprised if even half the people they end up executing are actually responsible for the things they get accused of.

though of course that metaphorical blood while on the vigilante's hands is also on the hands of the ministers responsible for creating this situation to begin with.

I will say as heavy as the discussions are getting for this series I am enjoying it, especially given that I wouldn't have expected this to go from ninja bullshit to the extremely fraught reality that many refugees end up in.

last edited at Jul 16, 2023 5:40PM

Letting refugees in to the country, but keeping them separated and disenfranchised is a recipe for disaster.