It doesn't make sense for everyone to suddenly be super supportive. Though I suspect now more people are going to start coming out and this will spark a discussion but idk... idk how this can be handled correctly

13 years is a long time, though. Everyone doesn't need to be supportive but the atmosphere around these relationships and most importantly, how people think they're "supposed" to treat them can change. This office hasn't been "tested," Hiroko has just made reasonable assumptions. If most of them are younger like Ayaka and Risa, we already have 2 people whose views on coming out seem drastically different than Hiroko. That already suggests some possible shift in, at least, local public perceptions. Management might not be supportive but that doesn't mean they will have the same power to be as vindictive as they were in Hiroko's past. Last time it wasn't even management that fired Senpai, it was the rampant rumors etc. If the office treats this differently now, even if everyone isn't on board, the situation can be fine.

Even in modern offices in the US, everyone won't agree about social issues but if the atmosphere around acceptance has shifted people can be more reluctant to openly critique, or might have their critique nuetured a bit, out of fear of seeming against what's now considered good. That's obviously not always the case but still. In fact I don't see how anything else could be the case. After Ayaka has come out, having conversations in the office won't suddenly change behaviors. For this to work (and not be cheesy) it has to be that their behaviors were mostly already changed to begin with (cynically or not).

last edited at Jun 24, 2023 7:46AM

I want to see literally everyone in the office come out as gay. Guys, gals, turns out the entire office is full of closeted gays who were afraid to come out because of the repercussions, and now that Ayaka has finally broken the dam, they all follow suit in a massive flood of coming out until finally Hiroko is the only one left who hasn't admitted it. At which point she timidly admits that she, too, is gay, and everybody lives happily ever after.

I know there is absolutely zero chance of this happening, but if I were writing this story that's totally how it would go.

I want to see literally everyone in the office come out as gay. Guys, gals, turns out the entire office is full of closeted gays who were afraid to come out because of the repercussions, and now that Ayaka has finally broken the dam, they all follow suit in a massive flood of coming out until finally Hiroko is the only one left who hasn't admitted it. At which point she timidly admits that she, too, is gay, and everybody lives happily ever after.

I know there is absolutely zero chance of this happening, but if I were writing this story that's totally how it would go.

I’m totally onboard for that one.

Even in modern offices in the US, everyone won't agree about social issues but if the atmosphere around acceptance has shifted people can be more reluctant to openly critique, or might have their critique nuetured a bit, out of fear of seeming against what's now considered good. That's obviously not always the case but still. In fact I don't see how anything else could be the case. After Ayaka has come out, having conversations in the office won't suddenly change behaviors. For this to work (and not be cheesy) it has to be that their behaviors were mostly already changed to begin with (cynically or not).

When I say people won't instantly be supportive I mostly mean they will probably act like they don't care and go on with their lives, not that they will be homophobic necessarily. I didnt mean to compare it to the Hiroko's experience either. Im sure the new people might be more chill. It's just that I don't think Ayaka will get what she wants out of this... I just don't think people are going to be like "way to go Ayaka, go get the girl!" I mean this is an office. And obviously people are going to gossip about it, not that she's gay only but that she likes Hiroko mostly. They're going to be like, wait since when? how? So she wasn't dressing up for them men? Was she dressing for Hiroko? Does Hiroko like her back? Did she even know this?
I just think it's a very dumb move. There are LGBT groups in offices. If Ayaka wanted to show Hiroko that she can be out she could put together a group along with Risa and invite people to join. She could still tell people she's gay but she doesn't need to yell it out like a crazy person. I mean how old is Ayaka? 23? 24?

last edited at Jun 24, 2023 9:21AM

When I say people won't instantly be supportive I mostly mean they will probably act like they don't care and go on with their lives, not that they will be homophobic necessarily. I didnt mean to compare it to the Hiroko's experience either. Im sure the new people might be more chill. It's just that I don't think Ayaka will get what she wants out of this... I just don't think people are going to be like "way to go Ayaka, go get the girl!" I mean this is an office. And obviously people are going to gossip about it, not that she's gay only but that she likes Hiroko mostly. They're going to be like, wait since when? how? So she wasn't dressing up for them men? Was she dressing for Hiroko? Does Hiroko like her back? Did she even know this?
I just think it's a very dumb move. There are LGBT groups in offices. If Ayaka wanted to show Hiroko that she can be out she could put together a group along with Risa and invite people to join. She could still tell people she's gay but she doesn't need to yell it out like a crazy person. I mean how old is Ayaka? 23? 24?

Ok, I can agree with that! There are better ways for her to have done this, for sure. Maybe not for Hiroko's purposes, though. I think this way is more fun but mainly I agree with the earlier commenter, when they said:

...this is just really fitting for Ayaka's personality. Ayaka is exactly that impulsive, brash go-getter girl who goes for what she wants deep inside, damn the personal consequences.

And to expand on that point: her decision was definitely impulsive but that's her character. She's like that and for this story it's mostly a positive. To me, the story doesn't seem to be about changing those parts of her personality (like it sounds like you want? correct me if I'm wrong). Instead, the story seems more about showing that, that exact personality type is what's needed to force Hiroko to solve her own issues. Ayaka's brash, uncompromising, never-give-up personality is the only thing that could crack Hiroko's self-imposed walls. I see them as two people who are balancing each other's extremes. If Ayaka comes out this loud and proud, but nothing bad happens to her, there will be little for Hiroko to rationalize as an excuse. With the other methods, Hiroko might find more of the wiggle room she desperately craves.

last edited at Jun 24, 2023 10:03AM

And to expand on that point: her decision was definitely impulsive but that's her character. She's like that and for this story it's mostly a positive. To me, the story doesn't seem to be about changing those parts of her personality (like it sounds like you want? correct me if I'm wrong). Instead, the story seems more about showing that, that exact personality type is what's needed to force Hiroko to solve her own issues. Ayaka's brash, uncompromising, never-give-up personality is the only thing that could crack Hiroko's self-imposed walls. I see them as two people who are balancing each other's extremes. If Ayaka comes out this loud and proud, but nothing bad happens to her, there will be little for Hiroko to rationalize as an excuse. With the other methods, Hiroko might find more of the wiggle room she desperately craves.

It is also worth remembering that this story is a RomCom, and people in RomComs often behave like complete doofuses.

And to expand on that point: her decision was definitely impulsive but that's her character. She's like that and for this story it's mostly a positive. To me, the story doesn't seem to be about changing those parts of her personality (like it sounds like you want? correct me if I'm wrong). Instead, the story seems more about showing that, that exact personality type is what's needed to force Hiroko to solve her own issues. Ayaka's brash, uncompromising, never-give-up personality is the only thing that could crack Hiroko's self-imposed walls. I see them as two people who are balancing each other's extremes. If Ayaka comes out this loud and proud, but nothing bad happens to her, there will be little for Hiroko to rationalize as an excuse. With the other methods, Hiroko might find more of the wiggle room she desperately craves.

It is also worth remembering that this story is a RomCom, and people in RomComs often behave like complete doofuses.

Yeah true, it's a not to be taken too seriously at the end of the day. I'm just really not a fan of "if she rejected you it just means try harder". Sometimes people need to mature. We can have romcoms that don't fall into those typical cliches. I tend to like stories that reflect real issues but I'm a bit overly demanding. We'll see how it goes for her :P
She's kinda like Gizelle from Enchanted in that sense I guess.

Well that escalated quickly.

And to expand on that point: her decision was definitely impulsive but that's her character. She's like that and for this story it's mostly a positive. To me, the story doesn't seem to be about changing those parts of her personality (like it sounds like you want? correct me if I'm wrong). Instead, the story seems more about showing that, that exact personality type is what's needed to force Hiroko to solve her own issues. Ayaka's brash, uncompromising, never-give-up personality is the only thing that could crack Hiroko's self-imposed walls. I see them as two people who are balancing each other's extremes. If Ayaka comes out this loud and proud, but nothing bad happens to her, there will be little for Hiroko to rationalize as an excuse. With the other methods, Hiroko might find more of the wiggle room she desperately craves.

It is also worth remembering that this story is a RomCom, and people in RomComs often behave like complete doofuses.

Yeah true, it's a not to be taken too seriously at the end of the day. I'm just really not a fan of "if she rejected you it just means try harder". Sometimes people need to mature. We can have romcoms that don't fall into those typical cliches. I tend to like stories that reflect real issues but I'm a bit overly demanding. We'll see how it goes for her :P
She's kinda like Gizelle from Enchanted in that sense I guess.

I generally agree about characters who don't quit. So we are definitely the same, there. I make an exception here in small part because its super funny but mostly because by this point Ayaka knows Hiroko likes her. She hasn't actually ever been rejected. Even the first "rejection" was more of an "I am too afraid to be public and want you to be happy," which Ayaka reads rightfully as "she likes me but is afraid of backlash, I'll show her not to be afraid." Before those points Hiroko deliberately never rejects Ayaka because she has always liked her but was avoidant. Hiroko lies about being gay once, but Risa immediately reveals that lie and makes Ayaka confused, etc. So to me, there's not been a real rejection yet, which is different than what happened with Risa.

last edited at Jun 24, 2023 11:55AM

This was simultaneously the best and worst thing Ayaka could have done.
Good to see she's still socially inept even though she's getting involved with more people.

I generally agree about characters who don't quit. So we are definitely the same, there. I make an exception here in small part because its super funny but mostly because by this point Ayaka knows Hiroko likes her. She hasn't actually ever been rejected. Even the first "rejection" was more of an "I am too afraid to be public and want you to be happy," which Ayaka reads rightfully as "she likes me but is afraid of backlash, I'll show her not to be afraid." Before those points Hiroko deliberately never rejects Ayaka because she has always liked her but was avoidant. Hiroko lies about being gay once, but Risa immediately reveals that lie and makes Ayaka confused, etc. So to me, there's not been a real rejection yet, which is different than what happened with Risa.

Yeah, I guess it makes sense in that way, in manga universe anyway. Ayaka does suspect Hiroko likes her but I really don't think their feelings are quite mutual in that Ayaka is practically head over heels and Hiroko just has a work crush on her. Maybe a bit more than a crush as Ayaka really triggers her insecurities in a way but she's not that depressed over losing her. She's just like "oh well". So I do feel Ayaka is really putting Hiroko on the spot here. She declared this in front a bunch of people and they're going to be expecting Hiroko to say something. Honestly, if Hiroko says something like "you mean you really love me as a senpai, right?" I wouldn't even blame her. What is she supposed to say? "That's nice Ayaka..."? Haha, anw sorry I'm being too negative. I just can't imagine how this is going to pan out and I'm here wondering, where is this going?

Yeah, I guess it makes sense in that way, in manga universe anyway. Ayaka does suspect Hiroko likes her but I really don't think their feelings are quite mutual in that Ayaka is practically head over heels and Hiroko just has a work crush on her. Maybe a bit more than a crush as Ayaka really triggers her insecurities in a way but she's not that depressed over losing her. She's just like "oh well". So I do feel Ayaka is really putting Hiroko on the spot here. She declared this in front a bunch of people and they're going to be expecting Hiroko to say something. Honestly, if Hiroko says something like "you mean you really love me as a senpai, right?" I wouldn't even blame her. What is she supposed to say? "That's nice Ayaka..."? Haha, anw sorry I'm being too negative. I just can't imagine how this is going to pan out and I'm here wondering, where is this going?

Nah, don't worry about being negative, its no big deal. I wouldn't even say you're being negative anyway. I actually expect Hiroko to respond exactly like you do. She'll probably deflect since she's not really been outed here. I personally think Hiroko does like Ayaka just as seriously but is just a different kind of personality. She's also in 5 levels of denial so it's hard to get a good idea of her feelings. The few moments she's "cracked" have been in Ayaka's favor though, like when she dragged Ayaka out of the bar and when her bar friend made her imagine Ayaka dating someone else.

Good god Ayaka is such a fucking chad

This thread is wild. I'm honestly fascinated that so many people can treat this as Ayaka not being a complete moron. Like yes it's in character and yes it's a romcom (ostensibly). Still. Stupid. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

while I will never be able to root for Hiroko, I gotta admit the manga has gotten a lot better lately and that the character development, especially for Ayaka, has been great

Ayaka has gotta be at least top five most down bad on this website

she may be the Simone Biles, the Serena Williams of being down bad

Hah, she said the thing

"Hiroko doesn't want to come out in the office because of this situation that happened in her past"

Ayaka: I know, I'll just shout that I love her in a busy office and force her to address this in a really uncomfortable way

WILD to me that this is something we're meant to agree with - I get it's goofy romcom & very in character for Ayaka to make a not very thought out choice - but what happened to Hiroko in the past could easily be a very real scenario, would've been nice for her to acknowledge where Hiroko is coming from and maybe have a quiet word with her and then go from there.

Cause like, what are the options here? Hiroko says she likes her too, forcing her to come out, or she has to try and awkwardly laugh it off? She runs away, creating more rumours?? Or is it going to be the case that suddenly homophobia doesn't exist and everyone is super accepting? Im interested to see where this is going to go....

I've seen gauntlets being laid down before. I've seen them thrown down, too.

But it's been a while since I've seen someone spike a gauntlet like that.

This probably says a lot about me as a person, but I get exactly the same urge once I have strong feelings that I’m supposed to hide in order to be “socially sensitive” or “mature” or whatever. I’m like screw that, I want to make my problem everyone’s problem! No more sniveling and wondering about the right thing to do. Let’s get this out in the open and clear the air!!

Seeing Ayaka pull this move is so viscerally satisfying…

I've done "Ayaka things" in the past, not to this extent but um, weird extent, like asking my professor out for coffee once I graduated-extent... and sometimes I kinda wish it had stayed a crush in my head and I hadn't been so stupid. But then again, this is a manga not real life lol, idk why I'm even saying this.

Faylicia posted:

I've done "Ayaka things" in the past, not to this extent but um, weird extent, like asking my professor out for coffee once I graduated-extent... and sometimes I kinda wish it had stayed a crush in my head and I hadn't been so stupid. But then again, this is a manga not real life lol, idk why I'm even saying this.

I actually confessed to my teacher after got my uni digree and we're still in contact and very close friends after three years! <3

I feel like Pavlov's dog, waiting for a new chapter every two days...

I didn't like Hiroko for a lot of the story, though getting her background makes her actions seem more sensible. But I also recognize that I'm just the sort of person who hates lies and liars, even "white" lies. So Ayaka forcing Hiroko to drag the truth out into the light is a plus in my book.

EDIT: I also wonder how many people would see Ayaka as "pushy" and claim "she's not respecting boundaries", if the story was from Hiroko's pov and we were introduced to her emotional baggage first.

I mean I already do lol
But not really because its operating on romcom logic, this is this story's gimme, otherwise yeah if this were a more grounded story Ayaka's behavior would be very inappropriate and Hiroko largely blameless. Lying to another gay person about your sexual orientation isn't great but you're not obligated to be out to other gay people, especially if you don't trust them not to blab about it when you're living in a homophobic society and closeted for good reason. And her reasons for turning her down are also sensible, just because you like someone doesn't mean it's automatically a good idea to date them. Mostly people are mad because they want the catharsis of seeing them get together, just like every other series