I'm calling them bizarre because they appear to expect absurdly overwrought over-emoting

I went and reread the last two discussion pages cuz your response made me think I was missing something lmao. Where are the telenovela dreams? The Saturday morning cartoon demands on morality? Not seeing it. Should I go back 3 pages? Can I get a quote?

Last page is close enough. The point is that Lilliwyt's argument which I'm opposed to here is that Igarashi isn't regretful on the evidence of not looking as openly remorseful as, according to them, she "should" - scroll up to see why I feel these criteria are daft.
Hell.
If anything it could be argued it's the opposite; if she was visiting in bad faith it ought to be tactically advantageous for her to appear as remorseful as she can manage right out of the gate to hopefully make Chidori lower her guard a bit...

If anything it could be argued it's the opposite; if she was visiting in bad faith it ought to be tactically advantageous for her to appear as remorseful as she can manage right out of the gate to hopefully make Chidori lower her guard a bit...

But we still don't know anything about the exact terms on which they parted after the chocolate handoff, or the attitude senpai took at that time, or, again, what she thinks she's up to with the upcoming (present) meeting. Her off-hand reference to Chidori as "that cute kouhai" is pretty flip on the face of it.

Let's face it--readers are in the same position as Chidori: all we're really aware of are reasons for senpai not to show up, so what the fuck is she doing there?

last edited at Aug 9, 2019 1:36PM

If anything it could be argued it's the opposite; if she was visiting in bad faith it ought to be tactically advantageous for her to appear as remorseful as she can manage right out of the gate to hopefully make Chidori lower her guard a bit...

But we still don't know anything about the exact terms on which they parted after the chocolate handoff, or the attitude senpai took at that time, or, again, what she thinks she's up to with the upcoming (present) meeting. Her off-hand reference to Chidori as "that cute kouhai" is pretty flip on the face of it.

Let's face it--readers are in the same position as Chidori: all we're really aware of are reasons for senpai not to show up, so what the fuck is she doing there?

Well, obviously. I was simply further underlining how nonsensical it is to try to rely on mere appearances for such judgement calls and how very easy it is to flip the interpretation on its head. Or to digress a bit, my mother sometimes regales me with an anecdote of how grandma at least once voted for a particular candidate "because he looked so honest"...

Now I will readily admit that the major reason I'm playing the Devil's Advocate is because I am a sucker for smug faces find it funny essentially share the "not this cliché again" sentiment that spontaneously erupted here about the second Igarashi got off the train a few chapters back. The author's generally done a fine job avoiding obvious dead-horse tropes and I'm honestly going to be a bit disappointed if they just take the tired old "evil ex" route now; it also feels like it'd be a waste of the patient setting of the stage for her reappearance that began something like a dozen plus chapters back all the more so as what we've seen so far ought to have room for altogether more complex and creative arc. (I've certainly been spitballing enough fanfic synopses over that... >_>)

Now I will readily admit that the major reason I'm playing the Devil's Advocate is because I am a sucker for smug faces find it funny essentially share the "not this cliché again" sentiment that spontaneously erupted here about the second Igarashi got off the train a few chapters back.

I myself don’t think there are any “dead-horse” tropes, just a lot of tired and lazy handling of familiar tropes by creators, as indicated by the many excellent stories that can be made to sound like the ultimate cliche-fest if you simply list their tropes without reference to how they’re deployed.

I think this author has shown excellent judgment and taste while still working within very familiar genre parameters, so I’m willing to hold my own “not-this-cliche-again” sentiments until the cliches actually happen.

last edited at Aug 9, 2019 2:43PM

Putting her appearance and minute-by-minute behavior aside, I think the real questions are "Why did Igarashi send her those chocolates? Why did Igarashi go out of her way to come back and visit Chidori?"

"To make fun of her" isn't really a satisfying answer. For all its silliness, this is a fairly grounded series when it comes to human behavior. Having the evil ex as an unrepentant villain who just wants to torment our poor heroine would fit in some stories, but not really in this one. Presumably she has some kind of motive.

Putting her appearance and minute-by-minute behavior aside, I think the real questions are "Why did Igarashi send her those chocolates? Why did Igarashi go out of her way to come back and visit Chidori?"

"To make fun of her" isn't really a satisfying answer. For all its silliness, this is a fairly grounded series when it comes to human behavior. Having the evil ex as an unrepentant villain who just wants to torment our poor heroine would fit in some stories, but not really in this one. Presumably she has some kind of motive.

Whatever her motive is, it’s got to reconcile two apparent contradictions/contraindications: the chocolates in effect cancel out senpai’s “we’re both girls” premise, while her return now reverses her acceptance of Chidori’s rejection and disappearance from the literature club.

Hypothesis #1 (as has been mentioned by several people): Igarashi had some sort of lesbian/bisexual epiphany, regretted her rejection of Chidori (and perhaps dumped the boyfriend), and sincerely wanted to begin a relationship with Chidori. After Chidori’s rejection, she’s allowed Chidori some time for a cooling-off period, and now she’s back (all unaware of the Nanoha-Beast now standing in her path) for another try.

Hypothesis #2: She’s a player. She was playing around with Chidori in the first place; couldn’t quite swallow being told off by her kittenish kouhai, hence the chocolates; was even more miffed by the hit to her player status by Chidori’s rejection, so is back to put the moves on in order to show that she can.

Variations or even combinations of these two are possible, but that’s basically how I see it.

Chapter 45 Yeah no, that's definitely not the attitud of someone who is sorry at all, facade or not. She came like that and think Chidori will go back to her like nothing happen. She can feel sorry but that's definitely not showing at all.

Chap. 45 Paging Devil’s Advocate—apologist for apparently bitchy senpai to the white courtesy phone, please.

Chap. 45 Paging Devil’s Advocate—apologist for apparently bitchy senpai to the white courtesy phone, please.

Have you ever been in the situation where you're like sort of romantically involved with someone and then one of you moves away for school or whatever and you don't really talk to each other and then you meet up again and you don't really know where things stand while you awkwardly feel things out (plus you're kind of hoping to get laid)?

Not that that has anything to do with the situation here. Anyways for the sake of arguing, and since you asked, I'm going to posit that one possible explanation of Igarashi's behavior is that 1) she is genuinely romantically interested in Chidori 2) she knows she fucked up and 3) she is pathological averse to expressing any sign of vulnerability.

Spoilers for more detailed analysis of chapter 45. Let's take those statements as postulates and analyze her behavior from that perspective. First, she expects Chidori to react negatively to her presence, but she feels like she needs to go see her anyways. Maybe she wants to apologize, maybe she wants to see how she's doing, maybe she feels like she might still have a chance. Probably a mix of the three. But she's psychically incapable of admitting to actually desiring another's person's approval or acceptance, or to admitting that she did anything wrong. So she walks in smiling and acting as if everything is normal. She knew Chidori would be upset, and she is prepared for the inevitable "Why are you here?" She actually tells Chidori the truth, but she acts really casual about it and then walks it back when questioned further. She came to see Chidori. Obviously, this tactic is ineffective. Chidori, understandably predisposed to assume the worst about Igarashi, thinks the truth is the lie and the lie is the truth.

So Igarashi changes tack, and goes for a more direct approach. She brings up the past. Remember that time when I asked you out for real and you rejected me? But of course, she can't admit that she was serious or that Chidori's rejection hurt her, so she brings it up in the tone of "What a funny little memory." Obviously this does not have the intended effect, but it does get them closer to the heart of the matter. Igarashi then, awkwardly and terribly, apologizes for hurting Chidori, and tries to recapture how things were between them before that (apparently touching her hair is the only move Igarashi's got. Her hair's a little shorter this time, but that's obviously got nothing to do with me. It worked before, why not try it again?). She's finally worked around to what she was actually trying to say in the first place, painfully starting to apologize (though that half-assed "mistakes were made" might be the closest Igarashi ever gets to a serious apology), and Chidori appears to be opening up to her for the first time since she walked in.

But then she's interrupted. Chidori's back on her guard, and now, even worse, there's an audience. However difficult it was to get even close to opening up to Chidori in private, now that's completely impossible. Plus, oh shit, who's this girl? The Chidori I knew was a shy girl who was guarded with everyone except me. I assumed that she's be sitting in here alone, but now this friend bursts in, and they're obviously really close! So now, on top of everything else, she's (irrationally) jealous. So I think the "ex-girlfriend" thing is her trying to get a reaction out of Nanoha, put her off, and send some kind of signal to Chidori. Basically, some real petty shit, but she was surprised, didn't have much time to think about it. I think she smiles because she assumes Nanoha's reaction means "What do you mean, "girlfriend"? Like, as in dating? But you're both girls!" So there's Nanoha neutralized. See you tomorrow Chidori! Let's continue where we left off.

There you go. Devil's advocate. This is what might call reading between the lines that are between the lines (ie baseless speculation unsupported by anything in the text). But it's possible.

last edited at Aug 12, 2019 5:02PM

That’s an interesting reading that would make for a more sympathetic character. All of those reasons are very solid and realistic. But just because your behavior is understandable in this light or given that justification doesn’t necessitate the benefit of the doubt or the forgiveness of others. Especially if that’s something you can’t even bring yourself to ask for. There are circumstances in which we allow people to hurt us out of clumsiness or a lack of finesse, but we’re never obligated to do so. If someone does something rude to me, I have to be motivated to reframe or justify that — if it’s someone I don’t care for then it’s easier to just say they’re an asshole and move on.

I like that you’re framing her words as someone awkwardly trying to get around to “hey I’m okay with the label girlfriend now. See I’m saying we were (ex) girlfriends!” It is kind of charming. Still, none of this positively hints that she’s improved in the communication department haha

Tbh I can relate to inadvertently rejecting someone in a harsh way because I was too caught up in my own embarrassment to make space for a more sensitive/empathetic response.. it’s something I regret but it’s also something I realize is too late to apologize for, and to a degree that apology would be only to the benefit of my own guilty conscience. That person is doing well regardless.

Anyway my bet is on this arc ending with N&C finally coming out to someone? Maybe?

^ Two very good posts above. But simplistic thinker that I am in such matters, pending further concrete evidence to the contrary my money’s still on asshole.

Come on, like senpai really forgot that she was the one who rejected Chidori. She's manipulative as fuck. How can she expect forgiveness after ending on such a bitter note before? I don't understand her end goal.

last edited at Aug 12, 2019 7:45PM

and ya blew it

^ Two very good posts above. But simplistic thinker that I am in such matters, pending further concrete evidence to the contrary my money’s still on asshole.

A pretty safe place to put your money haha

Well.. it's not a lie. She never got together with the sempai.

Well.. it's not a lie. She never got together with the sempai.

She just really really wanted to

Well.. it's not a lie. She never got together with the sempai.

I’m pretty sure the “Liar” at the end is not Nanoha to Chidori, but the other way around—Chidori about Nanoha saying it’s “fine” and that she’s not worried.

Because after all, one way or another: fuck sempai and her motivations, whatever they are—it’s Nanoha and Chidori we care about.

This could play out any number of ways that I would be fine with, but closest to my heart is the one where Chidori tells Nanoha exactly what went down with sempai and how she felt then and how much Nanoha means to her now.

Then Nanoha kicks sempai’s ass.

last edited at Aug 12, 2019 9:47PM

THE ONE WORRIED HERE IS ME
FUCKING BITCH PLAYER
SCREAMS

wow something actually happen and it wasn´t a secret from everyone, i didn´t see that coming

last edited at Aug 12, 2019 9:45PM

that damn satisfied expression

Spoilers for more detailed analysis of chapter 45. Let's take those statements as postulates and analyze her behavior from that perspective. First, she expects Chidori to react negatively to her presence, but she feels like she needs to go see her anyways. Maybe she wants to apologize, maybe she wants to see how she's doing, maybe she feels like she might still have a chance. Probably a mix of the three. But she's psychically incapable of admitting to actually desiring another's person's approval or acceptance, or to admitting that she did anything wrong. So she walks in smiling and acting as if everything is normal. She knew Chidori would be upset, and she is prepared for the inevitable "Why are you here?" She actually tells Chidori the truth, but she acts really casual about it and then walks it back when questioned further. She came to see Chidori. Obviously, this tactic is ineffective. Chidori, understandably predisposed to assume the worst about Igarashi, thinks the truth is the lie and the lie is the truth.

So Igarashi changes tack, and goes for a more direct approach. She brings up the past. Remember that time when I asked you out for real and you rejected me? But of course, she can't admit that she was serious or that Chidori's rejection hurt her, so she brings it up in the tone of "What a funny little memory." Obviously this does not have the intended effect, but it does get them closer to the heart of the matter. Igarashi then, awkwardly and terribly, apologizes for hurting Chidori, and tries to recapture how things were between them before that (apparently touching her hair is the only move Igarashi's got. Her hair's a little shorter this time, but that's obviously got nothing to do with me. It worked before, why not try it again?). She's finally worked around to what she was actually trying to say in the first place, painfully starting to apologize (though that half-assed "mistakes were made" might be the closest Igarashi ever gets to a serious apology), and Chidori appears to be opening up to her for the first time since she walked in.

But then she's interrupted. Chidori's back on her guard, and now, even worse, there's an audience. However difficult it was to get even close to opening up to Chidori in private, now that's completely impossible. Plus, oh shit, who's this girl? The Chidori I knew was a shy girl who was guarded with everyone except me. I assumed that she's be sitting in here alone, but now this friend bursts in, and they're obviously really close! So now, on top of everything else, she's (irrationally) jealous. So I think the "ex-girlfriend" thing is her trying to get a reaction out of Nanoha, put her off, and send some kind of signal to Chidori. Basically, some real petty shit, but she was surprised, didn't have much time to think about it. I think she smiles because she assumes Nanoha's reaction means "What do you mean, "girlfriend"? Like, as in dating? But you're both girls!" So there's Nanoha neutralized. See you tomorrow Chidori! Let's continue where we left off.

This really hits home (and more) to how much I've learned to sympathize with Igarashi at the end of this mini arc.

Though I have to admit that I was as apprehensive of her presence as the people who hate her before understanding her why's.

the third party appearing is seem always threating the relationship...

That bitch!!!!