Yeah but she seem to being fine here

Alongside narrative structures I am beginning to question your grasp of the most elementary human psychology.

Senpai's giggle, followed by the heart in the word balloon, followed by Chidori feeling a cold wind, followed by mention of a typhoon coming = subtle indicators that a contrite senpai is on her way to kowtow before Chidori and beg forgiveness for her transgressions.

You know as well as I do that's as lurid a hyperbole as they come and has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

C'mon, the overall gist of senpai's character is that she's kind of an asshole. There's no indication that when she comes back, she's still not going to be kind of an asshole, at least at first.

I was less talking about your point than the (to me surprising) general impulse around here to rehabilitate senpai before we know anything at all (except for the slight cues I mentioned) about what she's actually up to.

C'mon, the overall gist of senpai's character is that she's kind of an asshole. There's no indication that when she comes back, she's still not going to be kind of an asshole, at least at first.

I was less talking about your point than the (to me surprising) general impulse around here to rehabilitate senpai before we know anything at all (except for the slight cues I mentioned) about what she's actually up to.

Which is exactly why I'm reserving judgement until we have more relevant information to work with. As things stand it could go either way - and even if her intentions are bonafide benign Igarashi will still likely stir up quite the shitstorm simply by rattling loose any number of Chidori's issues.
All bets are off if they aren't ofc.

All of this is a quite separate matter from what I was talking about, which was Lilliwyt's bizarre attempts to claim normal human behaviour such as not penitently crawling in dust in sackcloth (whipping yourself optional) as proof positive of ill intent.

last edited at Aug 9, 2019 10:44AM

which was Lilliwyt's bizarre attempts to claim normal human behaviour such as not penitently crawling in dust in sackcloth (whipping yourself optional) as proof positive of ill intent.

I didn't ask her to be all tears and sorry but that isn't the face of someone feeling bad of what she have done.

last edited at Aug 9, 2019 10:57AM

C'mon, the overall gist of senpai's character is that she's kind of an asshole. There's no indication that when she comes back, she's still not going to be kind of an asshole, at least at first.

I was less talking about your point than the (to me surprising) general impulse around here to rehabilitate senpai before we know anything at all (except for the slight cues I mentioned) about what she's actually up to.

Which is exactly why I'm reserving judgement until we have more relevant information to work with. As things stand it could go either way - and even if her intentions are bonafide benign Igarashi will still likely stir up quite the shitstorm simply by rattling loose any number of Chidori's issues.
All bets are off if they aren't ofc.

All of this is a quite separate matter from what I was talking about, which was Lilliwyt's bizarre attempts to claim normal human behaviour such as not penitently crawling in dust in sackcloth (whipping yourself optional) as proof positive of ill intent.

We're on the same page--I just picked the wrong spot to make my point.

Even though past performance does not guarantee future results, my money's still on "back to be an asshole," pending further evidence.

which was Lilliwyt's bizarre attempts to claim normal human behaviour such as not penitently crawling in dust in sackcloth (whipping yourself optional) as proof positive of ill intent.

I didn't ask her to be all tears and sorry but that isn't the face of someone feeling bad of what she have done.

And I'm telling you that's literally not how most people behave. Most prefer to try to act however now passes for normal for them if not too upset to manage that for some reason, and approach challenges with an air of confidence if they can. It's partly for your own sake, keeping lid on your own anxieties and all that, and partly because you generally don't want to advertise whatever inner turmoil you might be experiencing to all and sundry.

People can and do maintain very convincing facades of nonchalant normalcy all the time despite their actual circumstances being sometimes outright nightmarish (one way or another, as several "respectable everyman" serial killers have demonstrated).

And concrete counterpoint: this sure looks like a face full of :regrets: - it's actually the first of all of three instances we see Igarashi's default smug smile faltering. (The other two being when Chidori all but confessed to her and called her out.)

Most prefer to try to act however now passes for normal for them if not too upset to manage that for some reason, and approach challenges with an air of confidence if they can

If it wasn't for the spoiler we get about how she seem to really regret it then i can't have bring myself thinking : 'oh she seem confident but deep down she regret it and want to apologize'. It's not because it's clear to youthat it's clear to me

Most prefer to try to act however now passes for normal for them if not too upset to manage that for some reason, and approach challenges with an air of confidence if they can

If it wasn't for the spoiler we get about how she seem to really regret it then i can't have bring myself thinking : 'oh she seem confident but deep down she regret it and want to apologize'. It's not because it's clear to youthat it's clear to me

...I'm really not seeing the need for spoiler-wrapping that but anyway. There's no inherent conflict between confidence and genuine desire to apologise you know, doubly so if you've had time to think the matter over and mentally prepare beforehand and are now filled with DETERMINATION. If anything if you have strong emotional investement in the issue you'll probably want to go in as composed and confident as you can already to keep a check on your own feelings whatever they now might be - people tend not approach such situations with the goal of turning into a blubbering mess halfway through (but you know what they say about the best laid plans).

And concrete counterpoint: this sure looks like a face full of :regrets: - it's actually the first of all of three instances we see Igarashi's default smug smile faltering. (The other two being when Chidori all but confessed to her and called her out.)

I'm not reading any of those expressions as especially regretful/remorseful or otherwise a person thinking they were in the wrong/one down (however you want to describe it).

At most I see that first one as "regret" as in, "Huh, the chocolate ploy didn't work--didn't count on that."

And the confrontation one seems like, "Now I've got to deal with this."

Facial expressions and body language are among this author's strengths, and she's as adept at ambiguity as forthright denotation. I see those two examples (the confession one not so much) as basically ambiguous and not giving away much.

This is all basically prediction stuff, which I try to stay away from. But I'm reading the relatively few cues very differently, anyway.

last edited at Aug 9, 2019 11:55AM

Speculations all well and good, but why get so aggressive/righteous about your guess lol? Like, it’s not that I disagree with what you’re saying but... it’s speculation. Why throw around such strong language like “bizarre, questioning your grasp of elementary [concepts], [insert hyperbole about someone else’s claims ie “penitently crawling around in sackcloth” lol].” Since you’re both just trying to call numbers on a roulette spin, it’s impossible to definitely say who’s right until the ball actually drops. Therefore, even “bizarre claims” have some level of probability, and Lilliwyt’s claim isn’t even that bizzare. Whatever a person’s true feelings are, when they act obliquely and hold their cards close to their chest, it’s difficult to trust them. That’s also normal. Narrative predictions also place more weight on author framing than human behavior, although both typically play a part in good writing, because whether a character acts in a believable, “human” way is dependent on the purpose the author wants them to carry out.

That being said, read chapter 45 and signs are pointing towards her being an asshole, or at least still being really vague and manipulative so there’s that.

and Lilliwyt’s claim isn’t even that bizzare.

I already know i have weird way of thinking situations.

At most I see that first one as "regret" as in, "Huh, the chocolate ploy didn't work--didn't count on that."

I read that as the face she was making when Chidori entered, actually, given it's shown as part of her flashbacks of the encounter - unclear if it was before or after she'd said her "hard pass" piece ofc.

But it's certainly an expression very different from her confident default demeanor.

And the confrontation one seems like, "Now I've got to deal with this."

Oh, it certainly looks like the face of someone resigned to an uncomfortable but inevitable reckoning. She was effectively two-timing or at least very close to it and not terribly subtly either; she must've known it was pretty much only a matter of time before Chidori learned of her BF and was likely to start asking awkward questions. What's more interesting is her long thoughtful silence and apparent hesitation before dropping the proverbial axe on their relationship (the rather ambiguous expression she has when delivering the verdict isn't helping).
One possible explanation would be that Igarashi plain underestimated how genuinely invested Chidori was in what she may have originally viewed as that classic "playing at love at all-girls school" trope and when essentially put on the spot to choose between that relationship and her BF found it unexpectedly difficult to make the call. And going by the whole Valentine's business later may have underestimated how invested she herself got and started having second thoughts down the road.

Shouldn't cry over spilled milk but people are only too often terrible at following that chestnut. Teenagers doubly so.

Facial expressions and body language are among this author's strengths, and she's as adept at ambiguity as forthright denotation. I see those two examples (the confession one not so much) as basically ambiguous and not giving away much.

This is all basically prediction stuff, which I try to stay away from. But I'm reading the relatively few cues very differently, anyway.

Hey, someone has to play the Devil's Advocate.

Speculations all well and good, but why get so aggressive/righteous about your guess lol? Like, it’s not that I disagree with what you’re saying but... it’s speculation. Why throw around such strong language like “bizarre, questioning your grasp of elementary [concepts], [insert hyperbole about someone else’s claims ie “penitently crawling around in sackcloth” lol].” Since you’re both just trying to call numbers on a roulette spin, it’s impossible to definitely say who’s right until the ball actually drops. Therefore, even “bizarre claims” have some level of probability, and Lilliwyt’s claim isn’t even that bizzare. Whatever a person’s true feelings are, when they act obliquely and hold their cards close to their chest, it’s difficult to trust them. That’s also normal. Narrative predictions also place more weight on author framing than human behavior, although both typically play a part in good writing, because whether a character acts in a believable, “human” way is dependent on the purpose the author wants them to carry out.

I'm calling them bizarre because they appear to expect absurdly overwrought over-emoting in circumstances where psychologically plausible characters have no reason whatsoever to behave in such manner, whatever their motives (outliers like deliberately trying to appear as lunatics for some reason nonwithstanding). Their standards are seemingly calibrated on the basis of lurid telenovela narratives and, perhaps, the cartoonish exaggerations of light-hearted comedy series and woefully out of place in subtle human-relationship stories like this.

last edited at Aug 9, 2019 12:35PM

I'm calling them bizarre because they appear to expect absurdly overwrought over-emoting

I went and reread the last two discussion pages cuz your response made me think I was missing something lmao. Where are the telenovela dreams? The Saturday morning cartoon demands on morality? Not seeing it. Should I go back 3 pages? Can I get a quote?

...I’m starting to feel like I’m white knighting tho, so I should also probably back off / get off my high horse lol.

Uh, isn’t it kind of cute that both Chidori and Nanoha changed their long-standing hairstyles in high school? It makes me wanna see a flashback chapter of Nanoha with short hair. I also kinda want a “Beginning of Their Friendship” set of chapters now too ngl

the cartoonish exaggerations of light-hearted comedy series and woefully out of place in subtle human-relationship stories like this.

That's an interesting take on this series, one that I basically agree with, but except for the foreshadowing inherent in the series title and for this current arc, I think many people would regard the series as almost entirely light-hearted fluff, closer to a repetitive 4-koma than to the more serious dramatic narrative series.

I happen to think it's an example of how light-hearted fluff can also be subtle about human relationships (I personally think Tsurezure Biyori is another such example).

One thing I like about manga in general is the way stories can vary their register of tonal seriousness, sometimes from one panel to the next, and the ability to manipulate that dynamic smoothly and without making the shifts in tone seem jarring or off-putting is one of the higher-level mangaka skills.

I'm calling them bizarre because they appear to expect absurdly overwrought over-emoting

I went and reread the last two discussion pages cuz your response made me think I was missing something lmao. Where are the telenovela dreams? The Saturday morning cartoon demands on morality? Not seeing it. Should I go back 3 pages? Can I get a quote?

Last page is close enough. The point is that Lilliwyt's argument which I'm opposed to here is that Igarashi isn't regretful on the evidence of not looking as openly remorseful as, according to them, she "should" - scroll up to see why I feel these criteria are daft.
Hell.
If anything it could be argued it's the opposite; if she was visiting in bad faith it ought to be tactically advantageous for her to appear as remorseful as she can manage right out of the gate to hopefully make Chidori lower her guard a bit...

If anything it could be argued it's the opposite; if she was visiting in bad faith it ought to be tactically advantageous for her to appear as remorseful as she can manage right out of the gate to hopefully make Chidori lower her guard a bit...

But we still don't know anything about the exact terms on which they parted after the chocolate handoff, or the attitude senpai took at that time, or, again, what she thinks she's up to with the upcoming (present) meeting. Her off-hand reference to Chidori as "that cute kouhai" is pretty flip on the face of it.

Let's face it--readers are in the same position as Chidori: all we're really aware of are reasons for senpai not to show up, so what the fuck is she doing there?

last edited at Aug 9, 2019 1:36PM

If anything it could be argued it's the opposite; if she was visiting in bad faith it ought to be tactically advantageous for her to appear as remorseful as she can manage right out of the gate to hopefully make Chidori lower her guard a bit...

But we still don't know anything about the exact terms on which they parted after the chocolate handoff, or the attitude senpai took at that time, or, again, what she thinks she's up to with the upcoming (present) meeting. Her off-hand reference to Chidori as "that cute kouhai" is pretty flip on the face of it.

Let's face it--readers are in the same position as Chidori: all we're really aware of are reasons for senpai not to show up, so what the fuck is she doing there?

Well, obviously. I was simply further underlining how nonsensical it is to try to rely on mere appearances for such judgement calls and how very easy it is to flip the interpretation on its head. Or to digress a bit, my mother sometimes regales me with an anecdote of how grandma at least once voted for a particular candidate "because he looked so honest"...

Now I will readily admit that the major reason I'm playing the Devil's Advocate is because I am a sucker for smug faces find it funny essentially share the "not this cliché again" sentiment that spontaneously erupted here about the second Igarashi got off the train a few chapters back. The author's generally done a fine job avoiding obvious dead-horse tropes and I'm honestly going to be a bit disappointed if they just take the tired old "evil ex" route now; it also feels like it'd be a waste of the patient setting of the stage for her reappearance that began something like a dozen plus chapters back all the more so as what we've seen so far ought to have room for altogether more complex and creative arc. (I've certainly been spitballing enough fanfic synopses over that... >_>)

Now I will readily admit that the major reason I'm playing the Devil's Advocate is because I am a sucker for smug faces find it funny essentially share the "not this cliché again" sentiment that spontaneously erupted here about the second Igarashi got off the train a few chapters back.

I myself don’t think there are any “dead-horse” tropes, just a lot of tired and lazy handling of familiar tropes by creators, as indicated by the many excellent stories that can be made to sound like the ultimate cliche-fest if you simply list their tropes without reference to how they’re deployed.

I think this author has shown excellent judgment and taste while still working within very familiar genre parameters, so I’m willing to hold my own “not-this-cliche-again” sentiments until the cliches actually happen.

last edited at Aug 9, 2019 2:43PM

Putting her appearance and minute-by-minute behavior aside, I think the real questions are "Why did Igarashi send her those chocolates? Why did Igarashi go out of her way to come back and visit Chidori?"

"To make fun of her" isn't really a satisfying answer. For all its silliness, this is a fairly grounded series when it comes to human behavior. Having the evil ex as an unrepentant villain who just wants to torment our poor heroine would fit in some stories, but not really in this one. Presumably she has some kind of motive.

Putting her appearance and minute-by-minute behavior aside, I think the real questions are "Why did Igarashi send her those chocolates? Why did Igarashi go out of her way to come back and visit Chidori?"

"To make fun of her" isn't really a satisfying answer. For all its silliness, this is a fairly grounded series when it comes to human behavior. Having the evil ex as an unrepentant villain who just wants to torment our poor heroine would fit in some stories, but not really in this one. Presumably she has some kind of motive.

Whatever her motive is, it’s got to reconcile two apparent contradictions/contraindications: the chocolates in effect cancel out senpai’s “we’re both girls” premise, while her return now reverses her acceptance of Chidori’s rejection and disappearance from the literature club.

Hypothesis #1 (as has been mentioned by several people): Igarashi had some sort of lesbian/bisexual epiphany, regretted her rejection of Chidori (and perhaps dumped the boyfriend), and sincerely wanted to begin a relationship with Chidori. After Chidori’s rejection, she’s allowed Chidori some time for a cooling-off period, and now she’s back (all unaware of the Nanoha-Beast now standing in her path) for another try.

Hypothesis #2: She’s a player. She was playing around with Chidori in the first place; couldn’t quite swallow being told off by her kittenish kouhai, hence the chocolates; was even more miffed by the hit to her player status by Chidori’s rejection, so is back to put the moves on in order to show that she can.

Variations or even combinations of these two are possible, but that’s basically how I see it.

Chapter 45 Yeah no, that's definitely not the attitud of someone who is sorry at all, facade or not. She came like that and think Chidori will go back to her like nothing happen. She can feel sorry but that's definitely not showing at all.

Chap. 45 Paging Devil’s Advocate—apologist for apparently bitchy senpai to the white courtesy phone, please.

Chap. 45 Paging Devil’s Advocate—apologist for apparently bitchy senpai to the white courtesy phone, please.

Have you ever been in the situation where you're like sort of romantically involved with someone and then one of you moves away for school or whatever and you don't really talk to each other and then you meet up again and you don't really know where things stand while you awkwardly feel things out (plus you're kind of hoping to get laid)?

Not that that has anything to do with the situation here. Anyways for the sake of arguing, and since you asked, I'm going to posit that one possible explanation of Igarashi's behavior is that 1) she is genuinely romantically interested in Chidori 2) she knows she fucked up and 3) she is pathological averse to expressing any sign of vulnerability.

Spoilers for more detailed analysis of chapter 45. Let's take those statements as postulates and analyze her behavior from that perspective. First, she expects Chidori to react negatively to her presence, but she feels like she needs to go see her anyways. Maybe she wants to apologize, maybe she wants to see how she's doing, maybe she feels like she might still have a chance. Probably a mix of the three. But she's psychically incapable of admitting to actually desiring another's person's approval or acceptance, or to admitting that she did anything wrong. So she walks in smiling and acting as if everything is normal. She knew Chidori would be upset, and she is prepared for the inevitable "Why are you here?" She actually tells Chidori the truth, but she acts really casual about it and then walks it back when questioned further. She came to see Chidori. Obviously, this tactic is ineffective. Chidori, understandably predisposed to assume the worst about Igarashi, thinks the truth is the lie and the lie is the truth.

So Igarashi changes tack, and goes for a more direct approach. She brings up the past. Remember that time when I asked you out for real and you rejected me? But of course, she can't admit that she was serious or that Chidori's rejection hurt her, so she brings it up in the tone of "What a funny little memory." Obviously this does not have the intended effect, but it does get them closer to the heart of the matter. Igarashi then, awkwardly and terribly, apologizes for hurting Chidori, and tries to recapture how things were between them before that (apparently touching her hair is the only move Igarashi's got. Her hair's a little shorter this time, but that's obviously got nothing to do with me. It worked before, why not try it again?). She's finally worked around to what she was actually trying to say in the first place, painfully starting to apologize (though that half-assed "mistakes were made" might be the closest Igarashi ever gets to a serious apology), and Chidori appears to be opening up to her for the first time since she walked in.

But then she's interrupted. Chidori's back on her guard, and now, even worse, there's an audience. However difficult it was to get even close to opening up to Chidori in private, now that's completely impossible. Plus, oh shit, who's this girl? The Chidori I knew was a shy girl who was guarded with everyone except me. I assumed that she's be sitting in here alone, but now this friend bursts in, and they're obviously really close! So now, on top of everything else, she's (irrationally) jealous. So I think the "ex-girlfriend" thing is her trying to get a reaction out of Nanoha, put her off, and send some kind of signal to Chidori. Basically, some real petty shit, but she was surprised, didn't have much time to think about it. I think she smiles because she assumes Nanoha's reaction means "What do you mean, "girlfriend"? Like, as in dating? But you're both girls!" So there's Nanoha neutralized. See you tomorrow Chidori! Let's continue where we left off.

There you go. Devil's advocate. This is what might call reading between the lines that are between the lines (ie baseless speculation unsupported by anything in the text). But it's possible.

last edited at Aug 12, 2019 5:02PM