Deleting my response to BugDevil, since we probably agree more than we disagree on the main point, and ^ @Nene was really the point I should have been making anyway.

Why, now I just feel deprived of a good post. Alas, Nene isn't wrong (except for the part about Japan not having haters and aggressive posters in forums lol).
Still, discussion and conflict of ideas keeps the world turning, never forget that. Empty mudslinging against a tag or genre is quite pointless, but critisizing a work in detail or disagreeing with how a topic is handled is not something to be denounced. Otherwise we get echo chambers.

Just to keep up a miraculous string of me agreeing with you—you’re right. The problem is not the thought-out arguments about the text itself, but the buzz-bombing posters who think they’re informing the public of new information by proclaiming the equivalent of, “Child abuse is not OK!”

You know, the people who have no interest in actually engaging the text and the terms it establishes, even if to criticize it in a negative way, but who either just sloganize (“Child abuse is not OK!”) or treat the characters straight-up as if they’re real people in the real world, and regard readers who enjoy the story as abetting real-world child abuse.

For instance, @Arcane’s reading of the story is one that is grounded in the story itself and has made me think back on my own take, even if I ultimately don’t find it to be a very plausible or convincing one.

(For the record: I do not think child abuse is OK.)

Feast your eyes, everyone. Child abuse, incest and rape. It's so CUTE!

This but unironically.

The world needs more people like you. (‘▿’ʃʃ)

Unironically.

People who feel child abuse/incest/rape is cute??

Still a lot of confusion here but still nice. What's going on with that one other girl here and how does she effect Asuka/Ayuko's relationship.
Can't wait to find out

I've completely lost track of the narrative these past couple of volumes.

Feast your eyes, everyone. Child abuse, incest and rape. It's so CUTE!

This but unironically.

The world needs more people like you. (‘▿’ʃʃ)

Unironically.

People who feel child abuse/incest/rape is cute??

People who can tell reality from fantasy. People who know that the things they like in reality and the things they like in fiction are two completely different, unrelated sets. And, therefore, have absolutely no qualms and feel absolutely no guilt about liking whatever books or movies or comics or manga or anime or games they like. That kind of people.

Look at Japan: they produce works of fiction that cater to every fetish and kink under the sky, the fans buy them openly, and they even organize giant events like the Comiket for greater publicity and accessibility. This is amazeballs. This is, aamof, exactly what brought me to manga, all those years ago, and made me an enthusiastic devotee: the freedom from self-censorship, fear, and hypocrisy.

Feast your eyes, everyone. Child abuse, incest and rape. It's so CUTE!

What's wrong with this yoyo? What's his problem?

A friend of BugDevil, shitting his Politically Correct fecal matter all over the forum.

Ignore him.

Hey, White Rose, this marks the second time I've seen you personally attacking BugDevil in a week. You did the very kind favour of extending the attack to another user, as well. This is in violation of rule 1. I'd suggest perusing the rules here so that you don't violate them again. In the meantime, you'll be receiving a one-day timeout.

I'd also kindly suggest, for the second time in a week, that personal issues plaguing you are not of interest to users browsing this thread to discuss yuri, and can only bring further trouble. Thank you very much for keeping that in mind, cheers.

Feast your eyes, everyone. Child abuse, incest and rape. It's so CUTE!

This but unironically.

The world needs more people like you. (‘▿’ʃʃ)

Unironically.

People who feel child abuse/incest/rape is cute??

So far I've only read a cute story about incest, not rape and abuse. I mean, unless you're talking about the nonsensical prattling of various posters that's borderline abusive to my ears - but that stuff isn't cute.

Seriously though, some of you are trying so hard to paint this as some kind of insidious story about broken and twisted people, like the poster who made the mental leap to assume that Ayako saying "it's her fault" means that she's talking about her secret drugging and raping of her unconscious daughter rather than her lack of presence in her daughter's life due to being a single working mom away from home all the time, a theme that's already been brought up multiple times in the story. As opposed to sekrit drug-induced rape shenanigans, I mean.

I wish I could say I'm making this shit up. Actually, I take back what I said. It's cute how ridiculously tone-deaf to the writing of the story this idea is. Only ironically cute though.

---

Let me explain one thing further as to why it's tone deaf, since I realize now I'm pretty much saying it's dumb without really explaining why. What people should understand about stories like these is the intent of the people writing or drawing it: what they seek is not to depict some 1:1 version of the average (not even all!) taboo relationship in question, whether it be incest, or loli age gap, or polygamy, or whatever some posters here and elsewhere feel the need to morally police about every so often. What they want to do is strip away all or at least most of the most harmful negatives, only depicting the potential good or appealing sides - yes, there are always sides that are appealing or good - of the relationship in question. An idealized form of it. So people coming charging in on their crusade announcing that real life versions of said relationship are not necessarily like this, or even worse, trying to apply real life conventions to said relationship, are pretty much assuming everyone else is fucking stupid and are attempting to bring enlightenment to us uncivilized savages, and I can't say I appreciate that much. I mean the theory Arcane cooked up is harmless enough, if completely implausible, but in the greater context of this discussion, it's getting pretty old, seeing people constantly trying to twist the story to fit the "muh abusive" lens some other people are absolutely demanding everyone else see the story through

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 1:23AM

I was always going to enjoy this most likely because I'm trash but it really has exceeded expectations so far. Sooooo looking forward to the next update.

Oh man, even though the updates aren't as frequent as they were before, this is still by far my favorite manga on this site. Today's update is everything!!! Ugh, I can't wait to see how much further they go in future updates.

Damn stop PMSing people, just enjoy it since it's one of its kind.

Feast your eyes, everyone. Child abuse, incest and rape. It's so CUTE!

What's wrong with this yoyo? What's his problem?

A friend of BugDevil, shitting his Politically Correct fecal matter all over the forum.

Ignore him.

Hey, White Rose, this marks the second time I've seen you personally attacking BugDevil in a week. You did the very kind favour of extending the attack to another user, as well. This is in violation of rule 1. I'd suggest perusing the rules here so that you don't violate them again. In the meantime, you'll be receiving a one-day timeout.

Good job. That b... bad person insulted me grossly and supported incest and rape in comics on the laughable claim that it's just fiction. She deserves to be banned. Next in line for being grossly offensive are Jeanne Mathison (^a piece of her is quoted above) and Minalinsky.

And BugDevil: not only you are right about how for 1x1/2 you gotta be morbid to come here and read it, but also that Happy Sugar Life is an even worse wreck than this is.

So when are we getting to the lewds?

So, flashbacks about mother when Asuka was with her sempai are actually "consequences'' of being abused by her mother in unconscious state...
But it seems that Ayako was also under influence of something when it happened (like she is half-aware, taking it like, a dreaming state of mind).

From that, subconscious "context" will take a shot in reality. They will do something lewd with each other, activating "loss of memory"

It's interesting manga about loosen subconscious energy. It's atomic bomb effect, in reality.
This manga is true, this setting. It does not matter from which prism this phenomenon is observed (like incest, in this case).

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 2:25AM

Good job. That b... bad person insulted me grossly and supported incest and rape in comics on the laughable claim that it's just fiction. She deserves to be banned. Next in line for being grossly offensive are Jeanne Mathison (^a piece of her is quoted above) and Minalinsky.

Frankly, I can't differentiate between "invested parody" and "actually serious" at this point.
For what it's worth, I don't have anything against incest in real life too! (assuming it's between two adults of course)

Just to make you more grossly offended. In case you're serious. But surely you're just joking, right?

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 3:16AM

This chapter was a shocker.
I didn't expect the mom to think of her daughter in that way, as delicious.
It re-contextualizes the relationship. Whereas before it seemed that the mother was dragged into this messy relationship with her daughter, now it seems like she had some droplets of feelings for her before the events in the story, and she has been repressing it behind a dam of self-control. But now Asuka has broken that dam, and the mother now has to deal with the full range of her feelings towards her child.

Can't wait to see what happens next!

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 3:47AM

But majority opinion doesn’t automatically equal right opinion. For example couple hundreds years ago people almost unanimously saw interracial relationship as wrong and morally questionable.

Also as often the case with the popular beliefs they are not exactly correct. Incest by itself doesn’t really increase the chance of genetic defects that much. Here some hard science:

Majority opinion doesn't make a right, but it lays down the rules. It decides what is taboo. And that is what we are talking about, right? If in 100 years the death penalty is righteous again, that doesn't change the fact that it's frowned upon in most 1st world countries today. What's right or wrong is always "decided" by the majority. Or by a handful of people with real power...

Look, I'm not a biologist (more into Chemistry). When studies show that a limited gene pool and inbreeding lead to an ever increasing rate of genetic failures, I believe them. We had very famous examples of that in royal families across Europe for centuries. The first generation might not be as affected by it, but if you simply make incest something acceptable, the chances only unecessarily rise. There is a reason even cousins are borderline for most nations. 1st degree incest is the most problematic in that scenario.

Of course all of that is sort of irrelevant to lesbian incest.

And BugDevil: not only you are right about how for 1x1/2 you gotta be morbid to come here and read it, but also that Happy Sugar Life is an even worse wreck than this is.

I have a flair for using overdramatic word choices, so please don't get the wrong idea. I don't particularily think this manga is problematic or bad. It makes me uncomfortable in a certain way, but my "morbid curiosity" doesn't imply that I find it detestable.

Happy Sugar Life sure is something else though... I only brought it up because a certain someone was screaming "rape" and "abuse", two things that are not present in 1x1/2, but certainly in HSL.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 4:12AM

Look, I'm not a biologist (more into Chemistry). When studies show that genetic defects and inbreeding lead to an ever increasing rate of genetic failures, I believe them. We had very famous examples of that in royal families across Europe for centuries. The first generation might not be as affected by it, but if you simply make incest something acceptable, the chances only unecessarily rise.

Letting people with genetic disorders breed also raises the chances of genetic defects in a population but telling them they can't breed gets uncomfortably close to eugenics now, doesn't it?

I'm not particularly in the mood to debate the ethics surrounding incest between consenting adults, but the genetics argument against it becomes a weaker and weaker argument as time passes. There are other options like adoption, and technology marches ever forward to assist in predicting, preventing, or even solving such issues. For most, genetics is merely a post-hoc justification for their gut rejection of incest as a concept that's much more rooted in psychology and historical traditions. People who use genetics as an argument seem to construct this imaginary scenario that everyone will be scrambling to get it on with their brother or sister for multiple generations in a row the moment it stops being outlawed, which is an imaginary fantasy scenario, to put it lightly. Frankly, half the people I meet can barely like their siblings, nevermind love.

Instead, one could argue for example, incest is commonly rejected across cultures because it was historically highly disadvantageous to a family from a business perspective. Marriage is traditionally less about love and more about business transactions and forging alliances, and an alliance with your own family is a whole lot of fucking nothing, so it was naturally discouraged by most families, with the exception of the weirdo nobles that were obsessed with bloodline purity, but that's another matter entirely because it was again, still less about love and more about marketing and strict enforcement.

There is a reason even cousins are borderline for most nations.

That has nothing to do with genetics as there's almost 0 biological disadvantage to cousin incest.
It's more or less because people in those countries that are against it are ruled by their gut reactions in this regard and not much else.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 4:24AM

Look, I'm not a biologist (more into Chemistry). When studies show that genetic defects and inbreeding lead to an ever increasing rate of genetic failures, I believe them. We had very famous examples of that in royal families across Europe for centuries. The first generation might not be as affected by it, but if you simply make incest something acceptable, the chances only unecessarily rise.

Letting people with genetic disorders breed also raises the chances of genetic defects in a population but telling them they can't breed gets uncomfortably close to eugenics now, doesn't it?

And yet (depending on the genetic disorder) a doctor in most cases would recommend not to have a child to such a person or at least dissuade them from doing it. Preparing them for the consequences. Someone who has a genetic bone disease is basically dooming their future child to have the same. That is not good family planning.
With incest, you don't even have a guarantee for anything. It could turn out any way, so it's like the lottery.

I'm not particularly in the mood to debate the ethics surrounding incest between consenting adults, but the genetics aspect of it becomes a weaker and weaker argument as time passes. There are other options like adoption, and technology marches ever forward to assist in predicting, preventing, or even solving such issues. For most, genetics is merely a post-hoc justification for their gut rejection of incest as a concept that's much more rooted in psychology and historical traditions. People who use genetics as an argument seem to construct this imaginary scenario that everyone will be scrambling to get it on with their brother or sister the moment it stops being outlawed, which is an imaginary fantasy scenario, to put it lightly.

One could argue for example, incest is commonly rejected across cultures because it's disadvantageous to a family from a business perspective. Marriage is traditionally less about love and more about business transactions and forging alliances, and an alliance with your own family is a whole lot of fucking nothing.

If you put adoption as the solution then you do indeed avoid the genetic issues. But between straight partners, it's not that easy to make certain it stays that way.
Well once we reach that future, all shiny and chrome, where we can use toolkits to have designer babies, genetic defects do become meaningless, sure. At that point we will have more pressing moral issues to consider anyway...

It's good that you bring up psychology, because it is a far more potent point than genetics in this day and age. Parent/child incest is extremely harmful to the child (not that it really helps the parent either). Even brother/sister incest brings a slew of mental issues with it. I think disregarding those as just "cultural" is a bit rash.

I don't believe that if incest was legal that everyone would scramble to pounce their family, but the cases would unavoidably increase. That is literally undeniable. It's not going to tear down society or some nonsense like that, but America already shows what the countryside does when they "inofficially" turn a blind eye to that kinda thing.

Eh, sure, there are cultural reason for everything. But often nature inspires culture in these cases. Procreating between non-related people creates a healthier gene-pool, so inherently humans want to do that and because of that it is normalized not to marry family members and that's how the entire economic structure even came to be the way it is. So what is the cause and the effect here, really?

There is a reason even cousins are borderline for most nations.

That has nothing to do with genetics as there's 0 biological disadvantage to cousin incest.
It's more or less because people in those countries that are against it are ruled by their gut reactions in this regard and not much else.

Oh really now? You're telling me 1st degree cousins are not in danger of genetical overlap? Come on.
It's certainly not all that problematic, which is why it's borderline.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 4:30AM

I was confused with where the story was at this point, so I done a re-read... Mostly cleared things up for me and it's all kind of coming together now. Pretty sure at some point her senpai made some moves on her (I think that's what she meant by 'practice' in a previous chapter) and that's when she realised she was into her mum.... But I need more chapters to confirm my theory

And yet (depending on the genetic disorder) a doctor in most cases would recommend not to have a child to such a person or at least dissuade them from doing it. Preparing them for the consequences. Someone who has a genetic bone disease is basically dooming their future child to have the same. That is not good family planning.
With incest, you don't even have a guarantee for anything. It could turn out any way, so it's like the lottery.

And yet it's still not outlawed, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. You're saying that with incest, you have a lesser chance, so it's... worse? It's not like anything is stopping a doctor from "dissuading" or "highly recommending not to have a child" a brother and sister couple

It's good that you bring up psychology, because it is a far more potent point than genetics in this day and age. Parent/child incest is extremely harmful to the child (not that it really helps the parent either). Even brother/sister incest brings a slew of mental issues with it. I think disregarding those as just "cultural" is a bit rash.

I've always found the "power dynamics!" approach to arguing against incest as incredibly weak, outside of parent/child cases which I'm hardly advocating for in most cases. Except in this manga, Asuka x Ayako the best. But in reality, nah, of course parent/child isn't okay and it's not because it's incest, it's pretty much bad for the same reason an actual teacher/student relationship would be bad. And yes, that would be grossly imbalanced power dynamics, only even worse because a parent is even more significant and in an even greater position of authority.

But in regards to others like brother/sister or cousins, the reason becomes much weaker. That level of "imbalanced power dynamics" is something that can exist in nearly every relationship you can think of, whether it be born out of differences in money (rich and poor), age (older and younger), social status (senpai and kouhai), gender (the role expected to play by one's gender), among other factors. One can hardly argue that "being siblings" is a greater factor to contribute to an intrinsically imbalanced power dynamic than the aforementioned factors in every, or even most situations, and yet we hardly ban relationships from forming on the basis of those other factors - in fact, some are even idolized and romanticized.

I don't believe that if incest was legal that everyone would scramble to pounce their family, but the cases would unavoidably increase. That is literally undeniable. It's not going to tear down society or some nonsense like that, but America already shows what the countryside does when they "inofficially" turn a blind eye to that kinda thing.

The same kind of arguments were used against homosexuality. Let the homosexuals go about their way and it only will spread AIDS! was one of the latest of the tripe they had to justify it. I mean except for the part where they actually do say it will tear down society. Still, it amounts to little more than fearmongering. The southerner incest thing is a literal fucking meme, I hope you realize. It's a stereotype based on the fact that many communities were isolated before the invention of faster modes of transportation. The stereotype has some basis in truth for a small number of particularly isolated communities back a century ago when there were were little other options for them, but you're making it sound like there's mutant incest babies walking around all over the place there.

Eh, sure, there are cultural reason for everything. But often nature inspires culture in these cases. Procreating between non-related people creates a healthier gene-pool, so inherently humans want to do that and because of that it is normalized not to marry family members and that's how the entire economic strucutre even came to be the way it is. So what is the cause and the effect here, really?

Certainly, that is a possibility, and I can't prove or disprove it otherwise. But even assuming that the ban is born solely out of "wanting to better our collective gene pool," should we really be limiting personal rights between consenting adult individuals for a reason that pretty much amounts to "it's not good for the state"?

Oh really now? You're telling me 1st degree cousins are not in danger of genetical overlap? Come on.
It's certainly not all that problematic, which is why it's borderline.

I edited it to say "almost 0 disadvantage" instead precisely because i saw this coming.
It's not significant enough to really warrant discouraging.
https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/04/us/few-risks-seen-to-the-children-of-1st-cousins.html
Even if you tell people this, they'll still go "its weird and gross still!" so yeah. I stand by my statement.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 5:00AM

MMMMM DELICIOSO

And yet it's still not outlawed, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. You're saying that with incest, you have a lesser chance, so it's... worse? It's not like anything is stopping a doctor from "dissuading" or "highly recommending not to have a child" a brother and sister couple

Well you equated it to eugenics, but medically speaking no doctor would agree with that kind of thing. With siblings this can have completely unpredictable effects, which makes it worse. It's always better to be able to prepare for the consequences of a bad decision.
Actually a lot of people are advocating that having children despite hereditary genetic defects is child abuse... but that's just an aside. As you said, it's not outlawed.

I've always found the "power dynamics!" approach to arguing against incest as incredibly weak, outside of parent/child cases which I'm hardly advocating for in most cases. Except in this manga, Asuka x Ayako the best. But in reality, nah, of course parent/child isn't okay and it's not because it's incest, it's pretty much bad for the same reason an actual teacher/student relationship would be bad. And yes, that would be grossly imbalanced power dynamics, only even worse because a parent is even more significant and in an even greater position of authority.

Well so in the end it's becaue of incest after all. Age gap relationships of that kind are dangerous enough, but with a parent it is indeed worse.

But in regards to others like brother/sister or cousins, the reason becomes much weaker. That level of "imbalanced power dynamics" is something that can exist in nearly every relationship you can think of, whether it be born out of differences in money (rich and poor), age (older and younger), social status (senpai and kouhai), gender (the role expected to play by one's gender), among other factors. One can hardly argue that "being siblings" is a greater factor to contribute to an intrinsically imbalanced power dynamic than the aforementioned factors in every, or even most situations, and yet we hardly ban relationships from forming on the basis of those other factors - in fact, some are even idolized and romanticized.

I'm not excactly refering to power dynamics here.... it has a lot to do with the psychological background of the siblings. Aside from the fact that to the human mind incest is innately wrong, to be in a sexual relationship with someone brought up as family always takes a psychological toll. This issue would completely disappear if they were estranged siblings that were brought up separately and don't know they are related or cases like that.
This one definitely has a lot more pressure from society involved in the equation too, admittedly.

The same kind of arguments were used against homosexuality. Let the homosexuals go about their way and it only will spread AIDS! was one of the latest of the tripe they had to justify it. I mean except for the part where they actually do say it will tear down society. Still, it amounts to little more than fearmongering. The southerner incest thing is a literal fucking meme, I hope you realize. It's a stereotype based on the fact that many communities were isolated before the invention of faster modes of transportation. The stereotype has some basis in truth for a small number of particularly isolated communities back a century ago when there were were little other options for them, but you're making it sound like there's mutant incest babies walking around all over the place there.

Uninformed misconceptions cannot compare to actual scientific facts... please don't use false equivalencies.

You can claim it's a meme, but it's also based on a lot of real situations. Please don't disregard reality just because its used for jokes. Incest is way more common in the country-side and small communities (for obvious reasons).
I'm not putting up some signs of "Incest paradise Alabama" here, I'm merely saying that the rate of genetic defects in places with lots of past incest are still visible in such areas today.

Certainly, that is a possibility, and I can't prove or disprove it otherwise. But even assuming that the ban is born solely out of "wanting to better our collective gene pool," should we really be limiting personal rights between consenting adult individuals for a reason that pretty much amounts to "it's not good for the state"?

The main issue anyone takes with incest is procreation. Get rid of that problem and "consenting adults" can do whatever messed up things they want as long as nobody else gets harmed. That's how society already works. Giving them the right to marry or be open about such relationships will only bring to light what is already there anyway. We already discussed the issues above, so everything else is just a matter of defining the laws.

I edited it to say "almost 0 disadvantage" instead precisely because i saw this coming.
It's not significant enough to really warrant discouraging.
https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/04/us/few-risks-seen-to-the-children-of-1st-cousins.html
Even if you tell people this, they'll still go "its weird and gross still!" so yeah. I stand by my statement.

Well it certainly is gross, but I'm looking at this objectively. Again, borderline for the reason that it is that low.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 5:18AM

Kinda makes me wonder if Asuka's mom subconsciously knew she flicked the bean that evening. I mean how could you not pick up on that.

Well you equated it to eugenics, but medically speaking no doctor would agree with that kind of thing. With siblings this can have completely unpredictable effects, which makes it worse. It's always better to be able to prepare for the consequences of a bad decision.
Actually a lot of people are advocating that having children despite hereditary genetic defects is child abuse... but that's just an aside. As you said, it's not outlawed.

Outlawing it is eugenics, which we do not practice with the genetically defect. That's consistent with my statement and exactly my point. We let those with genetic defects procreate, which means it's hypocrisy to outlaw even childless romance for siblings. There's nothing stopping people from enacting the same exact procedures already in place for the genetically defect, who have a higher rate of risk in the first place in many cases.

Well so in the end it's becaue of incest after all. Age gap relationships of that kind are dangerous enough, but with a parent it is indeed worse.

No, because an adoptive or foster parent that has no genetic relation to the child in question would in my eyes be just as bad as a genetic parent. A parent has a position of greater authority and influence over a child than pretty much anyone else, blood relation or not. Incest factors nothing into this, at least in my eyes.

I'm not excactly refering to power dynamics here.... it has a lot to do with the psychological background of the siblings. Aside from the fact that to the human mind incest is innately wrong, to be in a sexual relationship with someone brought up as family always takes a psychological toll. This issue would completely disappear if they were estranged siblings that were brought up separately and don't know they are related or cases like that.
This one definitely has a lot more pressure from society involved in the equation too, admittedly.

I'll be honest with you, that a lot of vague words there so I'm not sure what I'm really replying to here. Well, if you admit that it's more of society's effects on the couple rather than the actual interaction of the couple itself, I'll let it be.

Uninformed misconceptions cannot compare to actual scientific facts... please don't use false equivalencies.

It's a scientific fact that anal sex has a significantly higher transmission rate for HIV. That fact is exactly what was weaponized against gay men, as well as the statistic fact that infections were more common in gay communities, which is a natural result of the above and hardly a misconception. Facts, scientific or otherwise, are not neutral things that exist in their own vacuum, they can be weaponized against people. It's hardly false equivalency, its the same slippery shit slope of mass hysteria about how "consequences will never be the same!" if you let people do it. Heck, the solution is even the same here! Use a condom.

I'm not putting up some signs of "Incest paradise Alabama" here, I'm merely saying that the rate of genetic defects in places with lots of past incest are still visible in such areas today.

I mean, I hate to ask this, but citations please? I've never seen this supposed effect in Southern America, whether it be in real life or in studies. Only in fiction where it's treated as the joke it is so I'm gonna call bullshit on that.

The main issue anyone takes with incest is procreation. Get rid of that problem and "consenting adults" can do whatever messed up things they want as long as nobody else gets harmed. That's how society already works. Giving them the right to marry or be open about such relationships will only bring to light what is already there anyway. We already discussed the issues above, so everything else is just a matter of defining the laws.

Oh really now? So you're telling me nobody looks down on brother/brother and sister/sister couples and just consider it, you know, a weird quirk! Because they can't procreate, so everyone's totally cool with it. Please. I regularly see people trash on yuri sister incest couples (see my icon) acting like it's an affront to humanity itself. And that's a fictional couple.

Well it certainly is gross, but I'm looking at this objectively. Again, borderline for the reason that it is that low.

"Borderline" is still distorting it. It's not an appreciable difference, this is a hard fact. We're talking about moving from a 97% chance of being safe to a 96% chance. Whereas "borderline" is still attempting to paint it as potentially risky, just barely skirting on by the line of acceptable. And "gross" is a subjective judgment. Plenty of people think I'm gross because I'm gay. They can mind their own business and fuck right off.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 5:42AM

Outlawing it is eugenics, which we do not practice with the genetically defect. That's consistent with my statement and exactly my point. We let those with genetic defects procreate, which means it's hypocrisy to outlaw even childless romance for siblings. There's nothing stopping people from enacting the same exact procedures already in place for the genetically defect, who have a higher rate of risk in the first place.

Well, we will see how those cases will be treated in the future. If a doctor thinks it's a bad idea, I certainly would agree with that assessment. You're justifying one probematic thing with a loophole in another questionable situation here. I find it a bit crass to equate caring for the future child's health to eugenics. But slippery slope argument and all that stuff....

No, because an adoptive or foster parent that has no genetic relation to the child in question would in my eyes be just as bad as a genetic parent. A parent has a position of greater authority and influence over a child than pretty much anyone else, blood relation or not. Incest factors nothing into this, at least in my eyes.

Pseudo-incest does have similar psychological consequences to standard incest sometimes, sure. But on the other hand knowing that you come from that person (additionally with the genetic issues) has a profound psychological effect.

I'll be honest with you, that a lot of vague words there. Well, if you admit that it's more of society's effects on the couple rather than the actual interaction of the couple itself, I'll let it be.

It's a complicated issue that I'm not able to concisely convey here. Psychology is anything but clear-cut most of the time.

It's a scientific fact that anal sex has a significantly higher infection rate for HIV. Facts, scientific or otherwise, are not neutral things that exist in their own vacuum, they can be weaponized against people. It's hardly false equivalency, its the same slippery shit slope of mass hysteria about how "consequences will never be the same!" if you let people do it.

But HIV is transfered by straight couples too (in fact statistically more so) and lesbians have almost zero chance of ever getting it through intercourse. Therefore, it's scientifically proven that it has no profounder consequences in homosexuals.
Incest on the other hand is scientifically proven to be only detrimental. At best it creates few issues, at worst it has great ones. The inherent act itself is the problem, not some outside force like HIV.
That is the false euquivalence.

If your only point is that anything can be used for fearmongering... sure. But I'm not. These are facts and they are more justified than empty contrarianism to homosexuality.

I mean, I hate to ask this, but citations please? I've never seen this supposed effect outside of fiction where it's treated as the joke it is so I'm gonna call bullshit on that.

From all the reasearch I did on America in particular the statistics vary wildly, mostly because obviously consensual incest will never be reported (as it is illegal) and everything else that appears is sexual abuse and rape by family members. Many statistics are around the ballpark of 10-30 million incest victims across the country. One article in partiular mention Los Angeles as a particularily bad place. Alaska has some of the highest rape rates in the country and incest is part of that. Therefore states with higher rape rates have higher official incest rates.
Honestly, it's annoying to pin such things down, but it's undeniable that this is a big issue.

Oh really now? So you're telling me nobody looks down on brother/brother and sister/sister couples and just consider it, you know, a weird quirk! Because they can't procreate, so everyone's totally cool with it. Please. I regularly see people trash on yuri sister incest couples (see my icon) acting like it's an affront to humanity itself.

What...? I didn't say that. There is still a huuuge bias against homosexuality as is, adding incest to it doesn't help. That's combining two minorities that are observed critically, so it's inherently a losing battle.

For what it's worth... incest between sisters is probably the least "problematic" option, aside from cousins.

"Borderline" is still distorting it. It's not an appreciable difference, this is something stated repeatedly by scientists. And "gross" is a subjective judgment.

Hence why I separated my subjective view of it being gross from my objective view that it has consequences, however small they may be. I also find yaoi gross, but I won't stop anyone from drawing or liking it. Heck I even read some mild BL myself. In the end I base my true judgement of something on facts, not emotion. That should have become abundantly clear by now, considering I haven't made a single derogatory remark towards incest beyond agreeing with the statement that it's gross to me.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 6:24AM