So.

Who's going to be hurt?

Actually, it feels quite realistic. And some readers here obviously don't like realism.

last edited at Jun 14, 2019 1:22PM

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH yes i fucking love the adult life whatever genre so much i want more drama MORE PAIN MORE TEARS MORE HUMAN SCUM and then a happy ending in the end pls thank you . v. its not like i totally want my heart and their hearts to be broken

So.

Who's going to be hurt?

My money is on everyone.

Actually, it feels quite realistic. And some readers here obviously don't like realism.

You know what else is realistic? Completely boring dead-end lives with nothing exciting ever happening.
Never conflate realistic with entertaining.

But alas, I have defended not reading this story enough. Enjoy the story ya'll. salutes

last edited at Jun 14, 2019 1:26PM

I can certainly understand why the topic of cheating would be a deal-killer for some readers based on their personal experience.

That said, when the genre is romance (very broadly defined--essentially stories focusing on interpersonal, usually pair-bonding, relationships), there are a limited number of plot trajectories available. While the enormous number of "Story A" yuri stories ("Two girls fall in love. The end.") indicate that cheating isn't a necessary element, it's definitely one of the things that happens in real-life pair-bonding interpersonal relationships.

It's sort of like being a reader of stories about the American West. It's perfectly reasonable to object to stereotypical treatments of Native American peoples in such stories, and to find any examples of that a deal-breaker as a reader. It's quite possible to read lots of Westerns about sheriffs and outlaws and ranchers, etc. without reading objectionable material about Native Americans. But you're probably going to come across it sooner or later, a fair chunk of your chosen genre will be closed to you, and, who knows, somebody might write a really good story that deals with Native Americans in an interesting and nuanced way.

I get why people aren't a fan of cheating but.. Fuck this work is good. Like honestly so good.

last edited at Jun 14, 2019 2:12PM

OK seriously, people in Japan know what a gay person is, I promise. Why do we still get all these manga where a character's like "whooaaa I felt something I'd never felt before what could it beeeee" all coy and subtexty and indirect? If it's not an outright coming-out story, and you're not addressing things like repression and social stigma, then the characters just come off as displaying an irritating and unnecessary lack of introspection, in 2019.

Also, it's really common in manga for people to get married without, like, knowing one another at all and no one really bats an eyelid. Often characters are surprised to learn that, like, their best friends have gotten married. Is this really how it is?

It's sort of like being a reader of stories about the American West. It's perfectly reasonable to object to stereotypical treatments of Native American peoples in such stories, and to find any examples of that a deal-breaker as a reader.

I don't get this analogy, because there's a difference between portraying someone doing something immoral and creating a work that endorses socially negative themes. A negative or stereotypical portrayal of native americans says something about the attitudes of the author. Including a character who cheats on her husband doesn't, necessarily.

^ I’m not saying they have the same moral status, I’m talking about genre content. Who cares what it “says about the author”?

The objection to the content can be on any basis the reader wants. But if you’re reading that genre, that content is always one of the basic possibilities.

last edited at Jun 14, 2019 2:28PM

Hm...

Actually, it feels quite realistic. And some readers here obviously don't like realism.

You know what else is realistic? Completely boring dead-end lives with nothing exciting ever happening.

Completely boring dead-end lives with nothing exciting ever happening. Glued to the monitor screen all day long. Joining forums out of tedium. Posting 3000+ messages, most of them freakishly large blocks of text, in 10 months. Dull, empty dead-end lives with absolutely nothing to do.

You're right, it would never make for good manga material.

last edited at Jun 26, 2019 8:53PM

^ I’m not saying they have the same moral status, I’m talking about genre content. Who cares what it “says about the author”?

The themes of the story carry weight, because they're the persuasive part. When I take in entertainment or art, I'm trusting the creator with my transportation. If the creator is sneaking in bad messages, it could have a bad effect on people... or on me!

Reading about a story that simply contains a person behaving immorally is not necessarily the same thing, because the themes communicated might be orthogonal or even against the message that the immoral behavior is justified.

Of course people find plenty of things unpleasant and are free to not read things they think are unpleasant for their own entertainment (does anyone in the world disagree with this?). But there IS a difference between stuff we have to be vigilant about and stuff we don't.

You know what else is realistic? Completely boring dead-end lives with nothing exciting ever happening.

Completely boring dead-end lives with nothing exciting ever happening. Glued to your monitor screen all day long. Joining forums out of tedium. Posting 3000+ messages, most of them freakishly large blocks of text, in 10 months. Dull, empty dead-end lives with absolutely nothing to do.

You're right, it would never make for good manga material.

You know the saddest part about this ill thought out passive-aggressive personal attack? You actually think you're being clever lol
You're lucky that I'm not the type you can get a rise out of with that nonsense. Otherwise I'd probably have bothered the mods by now. Take it easy, cuz not everyone is as nice as me~

It's sort of like being a reader of stories about the American West. It's perfectly reasonable to object to stereotypical treatments of Native American peoples in such stories, and to find any examples of that a deal-breaker as a reader. It's quite possible to read lots of Westerns about sheriffs and outlaws and ranchers, etc. without reading objectionable material about Native Americans. But you're probably going to come across it sooner or later, a fair chunk of your chosen genre will be closed to you, and, who knows, somebody might write a really good story that deals with Native Americans in an interesting and nuanced way.

I recommend Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series. The books, I mean, not the TV adaptations. I can honestly say I've never read a more realistic story about life in Texas from the 1840s to the 1890s, the Comanches, the Apaches, the Mexicans and, most of all, the Texas Rangers. (Who are usually SO exaggeratedly aggrandized in fiction, it's rare to find a book that cares to show what a pathetic lot they actually were.)

You know the saddest part about this ill thought out passive-aggressive personal attack? You actually think you're being clever lol
You're lucky that I'm not the type you can get a rise out of with that nonsense. Otherwise I'd probably have bothered the mods by now. Take it easy, cuz not everyone is as nice as me~

(psst you prob shouldn't accuse people of being passive-aggressive and then immediately say you'd report them to the mods if you weren't such a nice person)

(psst you prob shouldn't accuse people of being passive-aggressive and then immediately say you'd report them to the mods if you weren't such a nice person)

You haven't dealt with @Fairypixie24 yet I see.

last edited at Jun 14, 2019 2:53PM

^ I’m not saying they have the same moral status, I’m talking about genre content. Who cares what it “says about the author”?

The themes of the story carry weight, because they're the persuasive part. When I take in entertainment or art, I'm trusting the creator with my transportation. If the creator is sneaking in bad messages, it could have a bad effect on people... or on me!

Reading about a story that simply contains a person behaving immorally is not necessarily the same thing, because the themes communicated might be orthogonal or even against the message that the immoral behavior is justified.

Of course people find plenty of things unpleasant and are free to not read things they think are unpleasant for their own entertainment (does anyone in the world disagree with this?). But there IS a difference between stuff we have to be vigilant about and stuff we don't.

This really has nothing to do with what I was talking about. If you’re a reader of crime thrillers but you absolutely object to, say, rape themes, you’re probably going to have a problem sorting through the crime thrillers.

This really has nothing to do with what I was talking about. If you’re a reader of crime thrillers but you absolutely object to, say, rape themes, you’re probably going to have a problem sorting through the crime thrillers.

But you asked who cares about the author and I was explaining why it's important to?

I recommend Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series. The books, I mean, not the TV adaptations. I can honestly say I've never read a more realistic story about life in Texas from the 1840s to the 1890s, the Comanches, the Apaches, the Mexicans and, most of all, the Texas Rangers. (Who are usually SO exaggeratedly aggrandized in fiction, it's rare to find a book that cares to show what a pathetic lot they actually were.)

I take it you're not a fan of ballads like...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=999RqGZatPs

... this one? ^^

(I know zilch about the general subject... but I remember that song cause it was one of the most often played by the Pip-Boy radio in Fallout New Vegas, lol)

last edited at Jun 14, 2019 3:59PM

OK seriously, people in Japan know what a gay person is, I promise. Why do we still get all these manga where a character's like "whooaaa I felt something I'd never felt before what could it beeeee" all coy and subtexty and indirect? If it's not an outright coming-out story, and you're not addressing things like repression and social stigma, then the characters just come off as displaying an irritating and unnecessary lack of introspection, in 2019.

There are plenty of people in places where they know what gay people are that don't put one and one together until well into adulthood. Not everyone has access to the same resources and socialisation. If you're told all your life that marrying a man is a kind of chore and that everything else is sin then you very well might not reflect upon whether what you feel is real love.

I recommend Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove series. The books, I mean, not the TV adaptations. I can honestly say I've never read a more realistic story about life in Texas from the 1840s to the 1890s, the Comanches, the Apaches, the Mexicans and, most of all, the Texas Rangers. (Who are usually SO exaggeratedly aggrandized in fiction, it's rare to find a book that cares to show what a pathetic lot they actually were.)

I take it you're not a fan of ballads like...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=999RqGZatPs

... this one? ^^

Heck no. A guy who could draw that fast would've been a bandit, or a town sheriff, or an U.S. marshall, or all three of them at different moments of his life. Never a Texas Ranger.

Rangers mostly made their business to scout for Comanche activity in the Pecos area and beyond, and to chase after Comanche horse thieves. And it usually went like this:
1) Rangers set out, made camp that night, found in the morning that one third of their horses were missing.
2) Rangers made camp the second night, found in the morning that another third of their horses were missing.
3) Rangers made camp the third night, found in the morning that the last third of their horses were missing, returned to San Antonio on foot.

No self-respecting gunslinger would want to associate himself with these losers. Seriously.

Poor bastard. Doesn't even know. When she stopped wearing the ring it hurted me.

There are plenty of people in places where they know what gay people are that don't put one and one together until well into adulthood. Not everyone has access to the same resources and socialisation. If you're told all your life that marrying a man is a kind of chore and that everything else is sin then you very well might not reflect upon whether what you feel is real love.

Yeah, and that's a story about repression and social stigma. I am pretty certain this manga is not telling that story, and it's very rare to find a yuri story that IS about that.

I've seen plenty of stories from the US with characters who'd find it unthinkable that they're not straight and then realize it's true. But, like... the creators of these works don't try to place these characters in worlds where no one has ever heard of a gay person, and that's kinda what it feels like this wife character lives in. The other character at least does seem to think of herself as gay, but the wife has a kind of obliviousness that I am pessimistic will ever really be discussed as part of this story.

Point is, lots of these manga want to make, like, queeress nothing but subtext (that is, the state of being queer, not the state of being attracted to or loving another woman). And this often makes the characters look hopelessly naive or stupid, in 2019.

last edited at Jun 14, 2019 5:36PM

I've seen plenty of stories from the US with characters who'd find it unthinkable that they're not straight and then realize it's true. But, like... the creators of these works don't try to place these characters in worlds where no one has ever heard of a gay person, and that's kinda what it feels like this wife character lives in. The other character at least does seem to think of herself as gay, but the wife has a kind of obliviousness that I am pessimistic will ever really be discussed as part of this story.

I find this interpretation rather odd. The story really has not made a single mention of her not understanding her feelings for a woman. She doesn't understand this excitement and feeling of love in general. Her uncertainty and confusion doesn't stem from the fact that she cheated with a woman, but rather that she has never felt this way about anyone.
Clearly she is in a loveless "friendship marriage" with a man she really gets along with. But as she said, she has never had anyone she was in love with until the age of 30. And it apparently didn't change until now.

I know this is yuri and all, so there are some preconceived notions, but this is really not what the first two chapters were about at all.

last edited at Jun 14, 2019 5:51PM

Shimura Takako is one mangaka I will always read with anticipation. Her stuff is rarely comfortable. Look at what Fumi had to go through in Aoi Hana, or Shuichi in Hourou Musuko or the MC in 34-sai Mushoku-san. Etc. The romances don't work according to wish fulfillment -- they're incidental to the dictates of the plot.

If you're told all your life that marrying a man is a kind of chore and that everything else is sin then you very well might not reflect upon whether what you feel is real love.

Yeah, and that's a story about repression and social stigma. I am pretty certain this manga is not telling that story, and it's very rare to find a yuri story that IS about that.

Yup, and that's because Japan is not a Christian (or even Abrahamic) country and nobody believes that homosexuality is a sin. Shintoism and Buddhism have no beef with homosexuality. Heck, in Samurai culture, men were even encouraged to do it -- at least up to a certain age. Today, there are scores of clubs with crossdressing hosts or hostesses, catering to a heterosexual clientele who wants to indulge in queer kinkiness... and these are mainstream places frequented even by married people or by people in company outings.

The pressure to marry and have children in modern Japan exists at a family level, not a religious level. As for social pressure, well, it does exist, but it works mostly in indirect ways... like, a typical sarariman will have a much bigger chance to be promoted if he is married with children (because it makes him look more like a responsible adult).

The reason why it's rare to find a yuri story about Occidental-style repression of lesbianism is that such repression does not exist in Japan.