As a honest, non-trolling comment, I think I would take a fairly "conservative" stance on the issue. That being said, normally I don't align myself as a conservative but rather a liberal. And because I am a liberal, this topic, IMHO, is far too foreign for me.

I felt quite uncomfortable while reading this manga - I believe that this is actually a plus point, since it means that I can feel the suffering of the characters, and certainly the mangaka nailed it.

Despite such discomfort, I reread it, not once but until fourth times trying to understand the situation, of what both protagonists are, what their problems are, etc. However, I became quite confused the more I read it; at one point, I was like, heck, who is who again? The concept of trying to find one's own identity is too foreign for me. Probably I am a "cishetero" guy so this matter never comes to me. But honestly, I don't see it as a serious struggle, since I don't care much about what people around me want to become, nor what people think about me (the society where I live in is also very traditionalist as well, but heck, screw that). You guys do whatever you want, I do my own stuffs, as long as it is not a bother to the others. I believe, IMHO, "flaunting" your "identity" is quite a bother to the others, actually. If people are interested, you can try to explain to them, else it creates needless arguments with both sides, for a certainty, never try to understand the other. This is why despite being a liberal I try to distance myself from the current progressive trends. It is too indoctrinate-ive for me.

Because of such foreignness, I actually can somewhat understand Miki. She is foreign to these matters as well. What Yuuko "explained" to Miki became "preaching" - as Miki said, their attitude was bad. You don't simply try to "preach" it to uninterested people. SInce the first impression was like that, adding the fact that Yuuko was Miki's rival, it became quite natural for Miki to be such an ass.

Anyhow, what put me off the most is, why would Miki liked Makoto? I see little reasons for Miki to like Makoto unless Miki herself is a lesbian/bisexual and comfortable with a transgender. If she is comfortable with a transgender, it is illogical for her to show that much ignorance, like me, on the matter.

This was a nice read, serious and manage to show a real issue in real life in a proper way, gotta say im so glad they told that piece of crap Miki off at the end, thats not the way to try to get the person you love, imbecile.

last edited at Jan 30, 2019 5:56PM

On page 23 isn't what Makoto says supposed to be "They're an aspiring mangaka!"?

yuripie posted:

Anyhow, what put me off the most is, why would Miki liked Makoto? I see little reasons for Miki to like Makoto unless Miki herself is a lesbian/bisexual and comfortable with a transgender. If she is comfortable with a transgender, it is illogical for her to show that much ignorance, like me, on the matter.

Makoto is not transsexual. Miki either knew him before he started to wear feminine cloths or she never really tried to understand him. It seems she simply see him as a guy, treat like one and just want to date him because she likes him (either because of his looks, personality or both). The point is, she don't care about his identity and all that stuff, she just want to fuck him and is jealous he has girlfriend, so she bullies them. Which honestly baffles me how she think it is a good idea and will make her love interest actually consider her as a potential partner.

And that just proved my point again. If transgender is a umbrella term for everyone not cis and doesn't simply mean transsexual, then they should say Makoto is not transsexual, not transgender. Because he is transgender, since he identify with both genders. But in manga they specifically use term transgender with the meaning of transsexual. So does Japan use different definition? Before you could just say trans or trans person and everyone knew exactly what it meant. Now it can mean everything and you have no idea which version the person is using, cos some people use trans and transgender to only mean transsexual. It used to be pretty simple, but now it got overcomplicated and the term become meaningless.

And that reminds me, now we don't actually have tag to tag works that have specifically transsexuals in them, because it was changed to transgender because it was a term transsexual preferred and felt more natural, but now that it is a umbrella term, we actually need a transsexual and transgender tags to differentiate the two.

last edited at Jan 30, 2019 6:45PM

Nevri posted:

shadesan posted:

Am curious what the title translates to in English? Google translate gives one thing, and mangadex another...

"My Girlfriend is a Trap."

Sorry I had too xP
Depending on kanji used "Otokonoko" can be translated as a "trap", but in this case it is the standard meaning of a "boy", so "My Girlfriend is a Boy".

That is what you get for guessing the meaning, without actually making sure which kanji they used.

Honestly I am kind disappointed the author, who used the correct terms in the manga, wouldn't for the title. However, I acknowledge that saying "Kanojo wa Otokonoko" is smashing together both feminine and masculine words together, which is kinda bigendery, but overall yeah could've been worded better.

gwennie-chan posted:

Honestly I am kind disappointed the author, who used the correct terms in the manga, wouldn't for the title. However, I acknowledge that saying "Kanojo wa Otokonoko" is smashing together both feminine and masculine words together, which is kinda bigendery, but overall yeah could've been worded better.

Yea, I think that is what they were going for, the mix of both genders.

And that reminds me, now we don't actually have tag to tag works that have specifically transsexuals in them, because it was changed to transgender because it was a term transsexual preferred and felt more natural, but now that it is a umbrella term, we actually need a transsexual and transgender tags to differentiate the two.

To the best of my knowledge, transgender was an umbrella term in the first place, whereas transsexual was the more specific, medical term. But given the focus on sex and the medicalized nature of it, it's understandable that a lot of folks with dysphoria would prefer the other.

The language is all relatively new, maybe a few decades at best, and it's a complex topic at best. So understandable if things are still quite a bit in flux.

Also "transsexual" is an outdated term in general. Saying someone is transgender but not "transsexual" doesn't really mean anything

Characters felt forced to me so I didn't like it much. Still this is a nice way to convey your opinions and feelings

last edited at Jan 30, 2019 8:13PM

Mmmm....
Meh

That was an enlightening read, really put an insightful perspective on gender identity

Reads like a strawman political comic but longform, what with the "irrational crackjob" character flipping out and getting "defeated" soundly by the primary characters. Doesn't feel like a story with actual characters, just cut-outs to represent the ideas that the author believes and an exaggerated loon set up to get beaten so they can "win".

On that note and not specifically referencing this story, remember when "gender roles are meaningless, do what you want" was the dogma? Now it's "define your whole being by whatever clothes you prefer / gender stereotypes you conform to". Honestly just do what you want, the problem that arises with the latter is when you expect to control other people's actions and make them accommodate your preferences. You'll never win that battle.

I don't know if it's the author's intention, but I get a strong sense that Miki has autism, and maybe ADHD. She lacks focus, has trouble with social cues and modeling other's minds, and fishes for compliments in an awkward way. I'm not excusing her behavior, but having known people like Miki I feel like her issues go deeper than "she's in love with Makoto and is kinda dense".

While I'm being devil's advocate, I guess I'll add that the counselor's advice wasn't all wrong. A long speech like that, full of unfamiliar terms, probably did need some work to be digestible for an audience of cis schoolkids. What he should've done was help Makoto refine their speech so they /could/ get their message across, instead of going with some generic statement about transgender.

gwennie-chan posted:

Honestly I am kind disappointed the author, who used the correct terms in the manga, wouldn't for the title. However, I acknowledge that saying "Kanojo wa Otokonoko" is smashing together both feminine and masculine words together, which is kinda bigendery, but overall yeah could've been worded better.

Yea, I think that is what they were going for, the mix of both genders.

Actually. It's a heartrending reference to how Makoto was forced to out themself to the school. As a crossdresser or "Otokonoko"...

I'm surprised there hasn't been any hazing or bullying. That counselor seemed to try eliminating the student from the school by having the student body jump him after his confession.

I figured the one who would have left school would have been the dude who confessed to the students, not the agender chick. The dude must have a black belt or something to fight back with.

Where did this manga come from? I thought China was the country that's hip with self-criticism sessions, not Japan.

Of the two bad characters in the story, the rude chick or the counselor, I thought the counselor was the most damaging/dangerous one. I figured such a confession should have waited until high school was over (and it was done in middle school?). That counselor isn't true to form for counselors in Japan... They would have suggested to "Just fit in." And this does help explain why the dude was so accommodating with the rude chick... He didn't want enemies, just understanding friends if they've been clued in often enough.

There's the missing family dynamics that needs some explanation in a sequel if this story is continued.

All in all, after reading all this: My head hurts! (Head explodes) Now I gotta add more tags to black list.

Now that's a first, Translator's Notes AND Typesetter's Notes. On the same pannel to boot.

Pretty cool the translation team is emotionally involved in the artwork.

I'm really happy this story exists! Also I didn't know about bi-gender before, so I learned something :D

yuripie posted:

Anyhow, what put me off the most is, why would Miki liked Makoto? I see little reasons for Miki to like Makoto unless Miki herself is a lesbian/bisexual and comfortable with a transgender. If she is comfortable with a transgender, it is illogical for her to show that much ignorance, like me, on the matter.

Makoto is not transsexual. Miki either knew him before he started to wear feminine cloths or she never really tried to understand him. It seems she simply see him as a guy, treat like one and just want to date him because she likes him (either because of his looks, personality or both). The point is, she don't care about his identity and all that stuff, she just want to fuck him and is jealous he has girlfriend, so she bullies them. Which honestly baffles me how she think it is a good idea and will make her love interest actually consider her as a potential partner.

Actually no, I don't even see the reason why Miki would consider Makoto as a love interest. The more I read it, the less I can understand the logic behind it. If she knew about Makoto for a long time, either she would give up after Makoto's coming-out (a superficial love), else she would try to understand Makoto (a more serious love). The extreme case like she does not try to understand Makoto might exist, but it means obsession with Makoto and less about Makoto's identity (a different category altogether), which does not show that much on Miki's case.

There lacks a background for Miki, thus Miki is poorly developed, and this seriously gives us zero reason why Miki would love Makoto. While we all know the story is about Makoto and Yuuko, this actually creates a very, very superficial antagonist for the story. Miki is simply portrayed as "she loves Makoto", and "she is a bitch". She was created solely to become an antagonist, and even a bad one at that. Isn't that pitiful? If anything, I quite feel sorry for Miki. Her actions are irrational, but very understandable if one were to be put in her shoes. Her first impression of Yuuko was very antagonistic (referring to my previous post, Yuuko was "preaching" her). Thus she tried her best to take Makoto's attention, even though it was a wrong method to do so. The rejection is so painful and heartwrenching, as much as the scene when Makoto came out during middle school. I'd rather say she chose the wrong person to love.

Eh...
The characters, and the tension was all strongly written but parts were an awkward mash-up of lecturing and drama that never quite fit together. It's like the author wanted this to be an educational piece but then making Miki such an asshole makes it seem less like its genuinely at trying to teach anyone and more like it's out to beat someone. Cutting some of those moments where it entered preaching mode wouldn't have hurt the story one bit.

last edited at Jan 31, 2019 7:29AM

confused

Actually, I can understand why Miki is confused about Yuuko.

This person dresses likes a girl, looks like a girl, talks like a girl, has a female first name, has all the chromosomes that makes them a girl and dates an otokonoko (which, to her knowledge, still has all the bit that makes them a boy), so everything about them just screams "GIRL!" (and a perfectly standard one at that).

But then, they go and say "Nope, I don't have a gender!".

Okay, if you say so, I trust you. No problem.

Now, what does that change?

Nothing. Still dresses the same, still have boobs, still the same first-name, still the same chromosomes.

Makoto had a hard time coming out (because of the teacher and society and everything we all know too well), but what about Yuuko?

I can't help but feel like the level of discrimination toward non-binary or agender people is a lot less than against transgender (or in this case, bi gender)

What exactly is difficult about coming out as non-binary ? I can understand the inner confusion when growing up, though Yuuko seem to have realized their identity pretty early, but if you go and say "I'm not a girl, nor a boy", while keeping everything the same, I think people are just going to look at you weird and pass it as "just a phase".

Some non binary people don't mind being referred as "him" or "her" and not all non binary people try to appear androgynous.

So, what exactly does "not having a gender" entails socially?

No offense meant, but there isn't anyone identifying that way in my circles, so I'm genuinely curious.

I think that's a big part of the reason why Yuuko got angry at Makoto. Makoto has their struggle, and their coming out is (literally) on the public stage, but where does that leave someone who isn't obviously genderqueer? Being non-binary when it doesn't entail looking like a boy in a skirt can leave you feeling invisible.

Add to that the weight of gendered expectations for girls. It's bad enough if you don't conform to those expectations, but if you don't even identify with the category of "girl" it's much worse. Like putting on a double act. Yuuko doesn't want to be seen as a straight girl who's dating a boy, or even a bi girl, but that's how society sees her relationship to Makoto.

Social dysphoria is difficult to define. I'm DMAB, but more agender; I bristle at being called gendered names, or being sorted into a group of my assigned sex at birth. I relate a lot to Yuuko. You're right, I don't face the level of overt discrimination that a binary trans person would, but that doesn't mean there aren't social difficulties involved in it. For instance, there isn't really a name for my sexual orientation; I like girls (cis or trans) and DFAB non-binary people, but I'm not bi or pan. But "straight" doesn't work, because I'm not a guy. When I do act more gender nonconforming, I'm usually taken for a gay femboy, but I feel like a complete outsider in gay culture.

When I don't have to present as a guy or binary girl, I'm much more relaxed and open about myself. IME, asexual people are really good about understanding gender nuances, and I'm gray-ace so I can fit into that culture.

Wow, do they actually teach LGBT topics at school in Japan or was that kind of set up a bit of artist fantasy? I sure could have used that lesson here in the states when I was like 10 years old. Would have made my life a hell of a lot less awkward going forward.

So, what exactly does "not having a gender" entails socially?

Think of it this way: gender is not only a social performance but it's also an internal mindset. Usually people like having their external and internal perceptions line up with one another at any given time.
I can see how it looks frivolous for someone who tends to dress like a girl to not just go "alright 'girl' it is" but imagine if you started calling your aunt a man cause she wears loose fitting jeans, flannel and has a crew cut. You'd look like an asshole for calling your butch lesbian aunt a man.
Socially and certainly linguistically agendered people are often left on shaky ground. Their gender identity (or lack thereof) is theirs and ain't likely to go changing itself same as anyone (who isn't gender-fluid probably) but the social cues and words needed that match up with their internal experience is... a work in progress.

last edited at Jan 31, 2019 9:27PM by OrangePekoe

It came across as sententious to me. I would like to see more relaxed and less confrontational in your face storylines...