Satou isn't a horrible friend, I mean yes she killed her BUT she did tell her to mind her own business AND she rejected her first or at least made her feel that way, no good reason to kill people but still, plus you can tell she really didn't like doing that, I guess she almost feels guilty.
I liked the anime ending, Shio getting all weird shit like Satou, it's perfect.

Whoaaaa. Damn, defending someone who literally murdered their friend as still not despicable in the friendship department? This manga does things to people.

last edited at Nov 12, 2018 2:56PM

Nooooo why did you have to take the damn ring off, baby girl. I thought this while watching the anime and reading this chapter, the whole shit with Shoko really effected Sato. My girl is always calculated, meticulous and 5 steps ahead of everyone else. Yet she forgot to put the ring back on, that’s a huuuuuge deal to me. I think she’s lying (to herself) about not having feelings for anyone except Shio. Shoko was the closest thing to a friend she had and the whole situation threw baby girl off her game :/

Whoaaaa. Damn, defending someone who literally murdered their friend as still not despicable in the friendship department? This manga does things to people.

Said “friend” fucked her over after spewing nonsense about wanting to know more about her, be there for her, love her and etc. Said “friend” chose a random boy she met on the street over her friend. Said “friend” never once tried to understand Sato. Yeah what she did is wrong and should’ve been handled differently, but shit happens when you’re pushed into a corner. Rationality is thrown out the window and you act on survival instincts

last edited at Nov 12, 2018 3:10PM

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

last edited at Nov 12, 2018 3:07PM

Whoaaaa. Damn, defending someone who literally murdered their friend as still not despicable in the friendship department? This manga does things to people.

Said “friend” fucked her over after spewing nonesense about wanting to know more about her, be there for her, love her and etc. Said “friend” chose a random boy she met on the street over her friend. Yeah what she did is wrong, but shit happens when you’re pushed into a corner

Nah, dude. Like in the context of the manga where pretty much everyone's crazy and a yandere, sure, what Sato does is completely normal, especially given her personality. But it still sucks for Shouko, one of the only near-normal characters. Especially cuz there's so much victim blaming towards her.

last edited at Nov 12, 2018 3:12PM

Whoaaaa. Damn, defending someone who literally murdered their friend as still not despicable in the friendship department? This manga does things to people.

Said “friend” fucked her over after spewing nonesense about wanting to know more about her, be there for her, love her and etc. Said “friend” chose a random boy she met on the street over her friend. Yeah what she did is wrong, but shit happens when you’re pushed into a corner

Nah, dude. Like in the context of the manga where pretty much everyone's crazy and a yandere, sure, what Sato does is completely normal, especially given her personality. But it still sucks for Shouko, one of the only near-normal characters. Especially cuz there's so much victim blaming towards her.

Naaaaah, dude. Simply labeling it as “everyone’s crazy” takes away from the nuances of this lovely work. In the context of the manga or outside of it, I’d argue that what Sato does is normal in the sense that she’s acting out on survival instincts rather than just being a “yandere.” Fight or flight, homie. In regards to victim blaming, that’s fucked up and does suck for Shoko. As mentioned above, I think she was a horrible friend, but I don’t blame her. I just don’t think Sato is “despicable.” Sato might be considered a bad friend, but so was Shoko. That’s all

last edited at Nov 12, 2018 3:25PM

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

It's not like Satou had any other choice, everything Shouko did led her to her own death. If Satou let her live, she'd go straight to the police.

Killing her friend and set her corpse on fire
Poor girl she found a good boyfriend was at the wrong place...

I know its futile, but a part of me still hopes this ends happier than the anime did.

That's guilt

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

Finally a sane person that gets it, & here I thought I was the only one.

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

The whole point is that she's evading the police.

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

She didn't kidnap her though.

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

It's not like Satou had any other choice, everything Shouko did led her to her own death. If Satou let her live, she'd go straight to the police.

Don't need to theorise what happened. Shouko actually led Asahi to Satou's home, who was not only mentally unstable, but also brought with him a bat with every intention (and ended up did in the anime) assaulting Satou with it. If Satou was not running away at the time, she would have opened the door with a bat heading for her head. Or being kidnapped and gotten her finger nails ripped off unless she hand over Shio

Two wrong does not make one right though. That was a tragedy though, that Shouko didn't trust Satou to run things through with her before taking that picture. And that Satou didn't trust Shouko's intervention and jumped at the most brutal option.

last edited at Nov 13, 2018 1:29AM

Don't need to theorise what happened. Shouko actually led Asahi to Satou's home, who was not only mentally unstable, but also brought with him a bat with every intention (and ended up did in the anime) assaulting Satou with it. If Satou was not running away at the time, she would have opened the door with a bat heading for her head. Or being kidnapped and gotten her finger nails ripped off unless she hand over Shio

Two wrong does not make one right though. That was a tragedy though, that Shouko didn't trust Satou to run things through with her before taking that picture. And that Satou didn't trust Shouko's intervention and jumped at the most brutal option.

Huh? What are you talking about. That's not what happened. Shouko didn't lead anyone anywhere. Due to things she happened to observe, she had a (correct) suspicion that Satou had Shio. Instead of calling the police, she gave her friend the benefit of the doubt and went to go see for herself. When she saw Shio, she did the reasonable thing of sending a picture of Shio to her brother, who until then didn't even know if his sister was alive. Knowing what she knew, and being in the situation she was in, sending that picture was simply the only ethical thing to do. She didn't tell him where Shio was, she just sent him proof that the sister he had been searching for was alive. Satou then murdered her. That's where we are now.

If anyone tells Asahi Shio's location, it's Mitsuboshi. Shouko's picture just has a door number in it, which is completely useless for locating someone unless you already know the address. Again, that picture is 100% useless when it comes to determining the location it was taken. Just from looking at it, it could be one of millions of apartments in the Tokyo area.

Also, whatever you think about how Satou acquired Shio, legally she's a kidnapper. You can't just take abandoned children into your home and keep them without alerting the authorities, especially when you know for a fact that their family is looking for them. That's child abduction.

Shouko jumped to some conclusions, but every assumption she made was proven correct by subsequent events. She thought Satou abducted Shio. She was right. She thought she needed to take a picture of Shio and send it to Asahi immediately since she might not have a chance later. She was right. Her only incorrect assumptions were that Satou would listen to her, and that Satou would let her leave.

Edit: and don't try to say that Shouko is somehow caused her own death by taking the picture. Satou would have killed anyone who saw her and Shio together. Regardless of whether she took that picture or not, her fate was sealed when she let herself be seen by Satou.

last edited at Nov 13, 2018 4:03AM

Yes,IMO Shouko didn't have the intention to report the police since the beginning. If she did, after learning Satou & Shio's hideout from Aunty, she could have lurked near Room 1208 to see with her own eyes that Shio really lived with Satou, then walked away quietly to report the cop. And to be surely safe from Satou's attack range, she could have monitored Room 1208 by a binocular from the opposite building until she saw Shio and then went to the cop. Satou would get the cop's surprise visit and have to pay for her sins without even knowing the cause of her Paradise Lost.

If Shouko cared only for Asahi, she could have reported him instead of the cop. Satou would get Asahi's surprise attack with his bat, get KOed and have Shio snatched away from her.

Shouko must know about the shutter sound of her smartphone. This means she intended to confront Satou to sincerely talk to her about Shio matter. Shouko was able to backstab Satou easily after learning from Aunty, but she didn't do it because she highly value Satou. At the time she failed to accept Satou family (Aunty) by understandable cowardice, she burst into tear apologizing Satou (who had already walked away). After that, during her conversation with Asahi, she blamed herself so much as to say she deserve to die for letting Satou down.

For me, the poor girl was stupid but her heart was in the right place.

Shawn posted:

Satou is a horrible friend.

Maybe but Shoko was kinda stupid herself. Outright betraying your clearly unstable friend right in front of her like that was an incredibly idiotic idea no matter how you look at it. Sato was wrong to kill Shoko, Shoko was wrong to betray Sato like that. And within the logic laid forth by the series, Sato's actions, despite being despicable, nonetheless make sense.

schuyguy posted:

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

People aren't arguing the point as well as they should be but it's not like that at all. It's more like earning the trust of an abused animal then betraying that trust while they're still not over their abuse. Wrong or not, it's going to put them in a mental state to defend themselves and what's important to them.

schuyguy posted:

Huh? What are you talking about. That's not what happened. Shouko didn't lead anyone anywhere. Due to things she happened to observe, she had a (correct) suspicion that Satou had Shio. Instead of calling the police, she gave her friend the benefit of the doubt and went to go see for herself. When she saw Shio, she did the reasonable thing of sending a picture of Shio to her brother, who until then didn't even know if his sister was alive. Knowing what she knew, and being in the situation she was in, sending that picture was simply the only ethical thing to do. She didn't tell him where Shio was, she just sent him proof that the sister he had been searching for was alive. Satou then murdered her. That's where we are now.

This is rather strongly missing the point. It should have been obvious to Shoko that Sato's mental state was iffy at best considering what she'd seen from her aunt as well as the fact she currently suspected her of having kidnapped a child. On top of that Sato had explained pretty straightforwardly from what I recall that people tend to abandon her after getting too close. All of these are warning signs that taking this course of action would not end well for Shoko. And Shoko didn't even attempt to find out what really happened. She just immediately jumped straight to believing a total stranger and assumed her supposed best friend was awful without even giving Sato a chance to even attempt to address the situation.

This is rather strongly missing the point. It should have been obvious to Shoko that Sato's mental state was iffy at best considering what she'd seen from her aunt as well as the fact she currently suspected her of having kidnapped a child. On top of that Sato had explained pretty straightforwardly from what I recall that people tend to abandon her after getting too close. All of these are warning signs that taking this course of action would not end well for Shoko. And Shoko didn't even attempt to find out what really happened. She just immediately jumped straight to believing a total stranger and assumed her supposed best friend was awful without even giving Sato a chance to even attempt to address the situation.

I can agree that Shouko's action might have been unwise from perspective of personal preservation, though I'd contend that she really had no way of knowing how violent and dangerous Satou was. To her it just looked like Satou was sad and withdrawn.

But saying that Shouko is culpable for her own death is simply delusional. No, she didn't jump straight to believing a total stranger and assuming her friend was awful. Here's the chain of evidence: Mitsuboshi told her Satou had Shio. She didn't believe him. She later heard Mitsuboshi talking to Satou on the phone about Shio. Even after that, she didn't assume Satou was awful—if she had, she would've just called the police. Instead, she went to go talk to her to get the whole story.

First she went to Satou's apartment and found out that Satou had lied—she didn't even live in the apartment that she had told Shouko was her home. Then once she found out where Satou actually lived, she went there to confront her. You make it sound like she did something awful, when all she did was go to her friend's house to talk to her. "Attempting to find out what happened" was exactly what Shouko was doing. Her course of action was the only way she could get Satou to explain what was going on.

The reason Shouko got into the situation leading to her death was that she cared too much. Yes, she cared about Asahi and wanted to find out about his missing sister. But if that was her only motivation, she wouldn't have gone into that apartment herself. The main reason she she put herself in danger because she cared about Satou and wanted to be there for her friend. She didn't want to get Satou in trouble. She wanted to give her a chance to explain herself. In return, Satou murdered her.

last edited at Nov 13, 2018 5:14AM

With 'friends' like Shouko, you don't need enemies.

You make it sound like she did something awful, when all she did was go to her friend's house to talk to her.

And then instantly snitch. They're not friends, either.

schuyguy posted:

I can agree that Shouko's action might have been unwise from perspective of personal preservation, though I'd contend that she really had no way of knowing how violent and dangerous Satou was. To her it just looked like Satou was sad and withdrawn.

I'd have to disagree here. While that may be what she took from it, the encounter with Sato's aunt and how Sato handled that should've been a clear tell that Shoko should be cautious. Sato was private, not withdrawn. And when Shoko pressed her on being so private Sato gave her a chance and hinted at or stated outright (it's been awhile so I forget which of the two) that people always abandon her when she lets them in like Shoko was insisting on. And Shoko immediately went and proved her right. And after that the next Shoko really comes into play in Sato's life she seems to be working against Sato from Sato's point of view.

The main reason she she put herself in danger because she cared about Satou and wanted to be there for her friend. She didn't want to get Satou in trouble. She wanted to give her a chance to explain herself. In return, Satou murdered her.

And this is the major problem. You're leaving out a vital detail. Blatantly betraying Sato right in front of her. And then I can't go reference it because I forget which chapter this was actually in but I'm pretty sure she lied straight to Sato's face when Sato called her out on what she did which ended up sealing her fate. She cared about Sato but refused to be honest with her while working against Sato. And whether she was going to give Sato a chance or not, it's simple logic that that's how it would have looked to Sato.

Again, to emphasize, I am not saying Sato's actions were right. I'm saying they were logically consistent with her personality. I'm also saying that Sato being in the wrong does not put Shoko in the right. She was in the wrong as well and it's directly her actions that made Sato feel like she'd been put into a corner and thus had what she feels is her very livelihood threatened. This would have been avoidable if Shoko had put more thought into her actions.

Largely the difference between our views seems to be you pity Shoko but condemn Sato. I pity them both. The entire situation around Shoko's death sucks for both of them. It cost Shoko her life and cost Sato much of what little sanity and trust in others she had remaining.

With 'friends' like Shouko, you don't need enemies.

You make it sound like she did something awful, when all she did was go to her friend's house to talk to her.

And then instantly snitch. They're not friends, either.

Never heard wiser words

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

She didn't kidnap her though.

Yes, she did. Just because Shio isn't fighting to get away or even necessarily wants to get away, Shio is still like 4 years old. She doesn't understand what is going on. In fact Satou is very insistent on Shio staying indoors for a variety of reasons, chief among them is jealousy not wanting to share Shio with the world.

For all intents and purposes, Satou is a kidnapper.

It kind of amuses me how much people are looking for a way to justify Satou's actions. Really, none of it is justifiable. She's messed up, she has a bad upbringing and it really messed up her mind. I'd say she was always just a sociopath but it's actually pretty clear she's starting to have strong emotions about what she's doing. That's the end of it. Everything she is doing does not "make sense'. She's crazy, and it's sad. I just hope this little story doesn't end with Shio dying.

last edited at Nov 13, 2018 10:54AM