I can only conclude that You is "something else" and we don't know what they identify as, but it's common in that world.

Interesting that you think it's perfectly logical to assume that the setting is one where intersex people are commonplace and unremarkable, but you think it's a weird and baseless reach to suggest that the setting is just like the real world and that one faceless woman happened to be particularly accepting of trans people. Like, you might even be completely right, and the author really was picturing a world with a third futanari gender, or whatever - I just always find it fascinating to see what strikes people as unacceptably unrealistic, and what they'll just accept as part of the story.

And if transgender people in Dynasty want to find stories to relate to, I'm sure there's more than enough here already.

lol

last edited at Apr 15, 2017 9:50AM

Goddamn, I thought everything was fine and clarified after it had calmed down like around page 6-7.

Okay, look. For the tagging, it was established that from the translator's post that it was transgender but upon PITO's tweet as translated by bing or google it says futanari but the mods and staff are trying to get into contact with PITO in order to get more clarification to fix the tags.

As for trans women x women not being yuri. You have to draw a line there. Even I'm starting to get pissed off. This argument is dragging on forever. Yuri is a genre about a love between two women. Just because a transgendered woman has a dick doesn't meant it's not yuri. You can't consider that Futanari as well because that literally means Hermaphrodite or Intersex, it entirely depends on how they identify themselves.

Bottom line is it depends on what they identify as in which case in previous pages ago, it was going to be clarified by asking PITO which the staff are trying to do. Only for another shitstorm to blow up.

P.S.: If I offended any transgendered people there with this comment, I apologize. Even the whole argument on this thing is getting to me.

EDIT: Seriously, if it's better to stop the arguing and just wait for the official clarification for the whole thing. Literally a lot of us in the previous pages had already talked about it along with meanmachinery's clarification as apparently they are a part of Idolatrymaster, the one's who translated the comic.

The staff is already trying to get into contact with PITO. Understandable that the tag is confusing as well as the comic being unclear.

With that in mind just stop. Because neither side wants to back down and the whole thing is going to cause another uproar and another new argument to rise.

last edited at Apr 15, 2017 10:03AM

Just a reminder transgender x female isn't yuri.

This is false, both in the real world and on this site. We don't use the Futa and Yuri tags together for mostly categorization/search purposes, but the Transgender tag definitely co-exists with Yuri. Take a look at the Mermaid Line stories for an example.

But hey, don't let not knowing what the fuck you're talking about stop you from shooting your mouth off.

Jesus fuck this thread is pretty much fucking hot garbage now. If you can't wrap your head around the fairly basic concept that gender identity =/= genitals, then I dunno what to tell you. I guess maybe self-reflect on your apparent bigotry instead of trying to convince everybody that transwomen are going to ruin the ~~~purity~~~ of your precious yuri.

My only regret is that there's not more trans yuri out there so I can request it be posted on Dynasty for us to enjoy. It's disheartening how hard it is to find that stuff.

Dynasty is not a transgender support group site.

It's a reader + forum about manga/doujins/art that the staff finds worthy of note. Lots are about yuri, some are about het, or something in between, or not even about romance or sex and that's perfectly fine.

Owners of the site have the last word about how to tag something and if that something is worthy to be here, or not. Period.

I'd love to live in a world where being transgender, or lesbian, or bisexual, or any color of the preferences palette, is unremarkable, or not worthy of being noted, like in "Always Human" (go read it!), but it isn't the case, unfortunately.

And I'm starting to think that some people here don't even care about this doujin. They just want to kick up some dust about an entirely different issue than this story. I keep on talking about it and others keep on dodging it by twisting everything into transphobia. This is irritating and, frankly, offtopic.

How can it be yuri if it's heterosexual sexual intercourse between a biological male and a biological female

Sexual identification is fine and all but bending everyone else to your own viewpoint is just selfish

This is false and shitty and has no place here.

Sometimes I wonder if it'll be a good idea to disable/take away commenting on LL doujins. I've never seen any other fando or franchise cause such a shit storm as this one, let about the stupid shipping wars or anything else. While there are valid points being made the whole "discussion" went way off course to just needlessly attacking others for not agreeing to other's views.

Dynasty is not a transgender support group site.

This doesn't mean the site should be actively hostile towards trans women and their relationship. Calling them 'futanari' is frankly rather offensive, not to mention inaccurate.

This is irritating and, frankly, offtopic off course.

Sorry, that was clearly a low hanging fruit and I couldn't resist. Plus the negativity and aggression on both sides is kind of (admittedly understandably) increasing the further I caught up with the whole discussion so i had to make it light-hearted somehow.

Owners of the site have the last word about how to tag something and if that something is worthy to be here, or not. Period.

I agree with that and it was already mentioned previous pages ago that the staff is going to fix the tagging and will try to confirm it with PITO but... Well another shit storm happened.

And I'm starting to think that some people here don't even care about this doujin. They just want to kick up some dust about an entirely different issue than this story. I keep on talking about it and others keep on dodging it by twisting everything into transphobia. This is irritating and, frankly, offtopic.

As said few previous pages ago, it was mentioned and stuff. The argument had already calmed down by then and I think I saw some talking about the comic itself after it but a new argument rose up and the attention went from there instead. Well, in any case I apologize on their behalf. The whole thing is getting annoying and off course.

last edited at Apr 15, 2017 10:26AM

meanmachinery posted:

Dynasty is not a transgender support group site.

This doesn't mean the site should be actively hostile towards trans women and their relationship. Calling them 'futanari' is frankly rather offensive, not to mention inaccurate.

While a few posters actually went on the whole "if biologically male, then not a woman" bullshit, either to troll or because they think so, they are clearly not a majority on this site.

People here are usually more accepting than other places, but it's not possible to shut hostile people down completely. Freedom of speech and all that jazz.

As for calling trans people "futanari", I don't think I've seen anyone doing it here?

You isn't clearly defined in this doujin. You (as in you and not You...-_-), and others think she's a woman. Okay. Other think he's a man (which I don't believe myself). And others think they are a third sex (futanari, intersex, or whatever).

I'm inclined to think it's the third answer, because Pito labeled it as "futanari". But then, he approved "transgender". But it could be a language problem (ie, being Korean, he didn't grasp the "subtle" difference).

So I'm very open to any correction on this and if You is a woman (even with a functional penis and Y chromosomes) then it deserves the yuri tag.

last edited at Apr 15, 2017 10:30AM

Just sayin, futanari doesn't have to be gross or over the top like Futabu ( and if you think it is, I understand why you would be against it), so in my understanding, You in the anime and in this doujin being a girl, with a penis, in a world where there isn't a crazy reaction... I think is just the common futanari setup.

It's alright to be confused for lack of clarification imo, that's not transphobia.

Office lady calls her "girl in the cap" (though I don't even know if "girl" is in the original) when calling from behind. That's the only hint we have. It's very tenuous, but the You character doesn't deny it. It would be enough in any other circumstances.

But then, the whole sex scene, with the missionary position and the "let it all out" comes into play and it goes awry from there, because the lack of reaction from the office lady at this way of making love shows that's something she expected, or isn't surprised by.

I like the story. If PITO hadn't labeled it differently, I honestly would have simply seen it as a yuri doujin. I know enough girls who love their harness, so the position is nothing unusual. The "did you let it all out" piece struck me as "did that help your frustration", as the inebriated office last was rather surprised (albeit not unhappily it seems), by the earlier "let's go to a hotel" part, which indicated that the young girl had something on her mind and just wanted to let off​ some steam.

Then of course I read the tags and ventured into the forum... :P

Just sayin, futanari doesn't have to be gross or over the top like Futabu ( and if you think it is, I understand why you would be against it), so in my understanding, You in the anime and in this doujin being a girl, with a penis, in a world where there isn't a crazy reaction... I think is just the common futanari setup.

On dynasty, futanari seems to be a tag used for porn that visible depicts a penis, and not one used for a girl who seems to be trans. The fact that this doujin is considered futanari despite the fact that nothing like that is depicted kind of goes against that definition, and seems to border into erasure when it comes to trans women and yuri.

I like the story. If PITO hadn't labeled it differently, I honestly would have simply seen it as a yuri doujin. I know enough girls who love their harness, so the position is nothing unusual. The "did you let it all out" piece struck me as "did that help your frustration", as the inebriated office last was rather surprised (albeit not unhappily it seems), by the earlier "let's go to a hotel" part, which indicated that the young girl had something on her mind and just wanted to let off​ some steam.

I honestly thought the same when I proofread it, and it wasn't until when dynasty tagged it that I suddenly saw that people regarded it as 'futanari'. The insistance that keep it tagged as such when everything seems to point it towards being yuri is, I feel, mildly ridiculous.

I'd like to comment on a few misconceptions about transgender and intersex people that have come up.

she is just teens highscooler, can't imagine she/he use hormones or surgery.

I know a few cases, usually people do these things on their own, without professional help. I know people who hid their HRT from parents, and I also know some who have been abandoned by family and had clandestine surgeries paid by pimps (thereby contracting unpayable debts). Some of these are as young as 12 years old.

After thinking a bit, she can't be a transmale (a real life one), because the "penis" wouldn't work the way it's hinted it does here. Basic knowledge about post-op transmales.

It's not unheard of.

She responds to being called a girl, but doesn't seem to have problems with using her male genitals to have sex. Which seem odd for a trans woman. Everyone is different, but when you identify as a woman, your male genitals become a reminder of your predicament.

That's not a rule. Some trans women are triggered by their genitals, some aren't. There are those who won't use them in sex, there are some who will use them, but not for penetration, and then there are some who'll use them for either purpose. Also applies to transgender men. Being trans doesn't necessarily mean you have to hate your body or anything (but it happens somewhat frequently).

I'd rather label her as "intersex", because she has features of both genders

Editing because I misread (sorry, my bad). Well, transgender people do have them too.

some are born with biological body that doesn't match their gender identity which can be diagnosed by doctors

Actually, you can't diagnose. Medicine currently uses the DSM and CID classifications of "gender identity disorder" or "transsexualism" to try and separate "real trans people" from those who "aren't real". This approach is flawed, people who have been diagnosed based on medical criteria sometimes detransition, and many people who don't fit the criteria are just as transgender as me or anyone else. There's a strong international movement towards the depatologization of transgender identities (let me remind you that lesbians, gays and bisexuals were once under the same diagnosis criteria, but have since then been recognized as real by most of society without the associated disease stigma).

they win a rare disease

Err... kinda horrible to refer to transgender people as diseased, don't you think?

And if transgender people in Dynasty want to find stories to relate to, I'm sure there's more than enough here already.

Actually, there really aren't. There are just a few transgender stories in here and many of them are really really transphobic. People tend to reproduce several stereotypes when talking about trans people. I've actually related more to "Catulus Syndrome" than to many of the stereotyped trans characters in here.

last edited at Apr 15, 2017 12:12PM

If not for this tag shenanigans, I would have said too that it's yuri. Even the position, while a bit unusual, wouldn't automatically point to it being het, or futa. It's just a yuri story of You being depressed and losing her virginity to a random office lady in a love hotel. Fair enough.

But at this point, only the author can tell, because this whole mess is because of HIM. Because he put a futanari tag on tweeter.

It's not even about interpreting the story, it's about a vital piece of information about the character that is lacking.

Regardless of the equipment, what do they identify as.

Actually, there really aren't. There are just a few transgender stories in here and many of them are really really transphobic. People tend to reproduce several stereotypes when talking about trans people. I've actually related more to "Catulus Syndrome" than to many of the stereotyped trans characters in here.

I find the story in Mermaid Line pretty good, and there's stuff I like in Double House and....um....Honey & Honey I guess?

Hmm in this work there aren't any explicit images or magically growing dicks... So personally I agree that transgender and yuri tags would work better in this case as labels, considering futa is associated with nsfw and fetishization and etc which this work lacks. As it stands having all three tags should be a decent compromise though.

I wonder what Pito would think if he saw this whole argument lol.

Office lady calls her "girl in the cap" (though I don't even know if "girl" is in the original) when calling from behind. That's the only hint we have. It's very tenuous, but the You character doesn't deny it. It would be enough in any other circumstances.

This is probably not helping things (sorry...), but Japanese and Korean have non-gendered pronouns. The literal translation of what the lady said in the original Korean comic would be something like, "Hey kid! (You with the) Baseball cap!". This is pretty much why there was confusion over which pronouns to use for characters like Crona (Soul Eater) and Hange (Attack on Titan) when their respective series were adapted into English, since the original Japanese didn't even have to deal with that issue. Also made me laugh whenever I read Ouran High School Host Club fics with the plot twist of "oh noes someone slipped up and referred to Haruhi as 'she/her' so now our cover is blown", because the characters live in Japan - when would that problem ever happen?

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that Pito intended You to be seen as female, since the translation was approved and all. Plus, in all of the Pito comics that I've seen, I've yet to see one where the futa characters were meant to be interpreted as anything but female. I was under the impression that Pito tagged relevant tweets with "futanari warning" simply for the benefit of potential readers who didn't want to see their beloved Aqours characters being implied to have a dick. And yeah, if Pito saw this thread, I'd guess that their response would be something like "???? it's just You-chan as always, she just happens to have a penis".

The "did you let it all out" piece struck me as "did that help your frustration"...

That's literally what I said when I was screaming about this comic with a friend on Discord, haha. I'm sure it's no coincidence that it's juxtaposed with You's inner dialogue about how she was bottling up her feelings. I've always enjoyed how Pito's depicted You, whether as a lowkey player who hits on girls all the time (before you start pointing fingers at me, this description was lifted almost directly from a Pito tweet lol) or as an innocent and well-adjusted gal who can't stop blushing around her girlfriend.

While the manga and SIDs seem to depict You as a carefree and energetic girl, we did get to see a more complex side of her in the anime - particularly in Episode 11. It's always exciting to explore another side of a character - and it's all the more exciting if an artist depicts a side that's very different from the character's usual self, but somehow just makes it work. In my opinion, "Going Off Course" You is a great example of that. As the title says, she's straying from her usual persona of the perfect good girl, and in a way that feels in-character. The fact that You tends to clamp down on her feelings and just deal with whatever crap comes her way, and not discuss anything with her friends to boot is brought up in Episode 11, after all. This comic takes those feelings, cranks them up to 11, then steps back to let the chaos happen.

On the subject of the many faces of Pito's You-chan, this comic actually started out with Pito tweeting that it'd be nice to see a story where You belatedly hit puberty, and then adding, "I actually have a doujin planned out in my head already".

[To clarify - the Korean word for "puberty" can also mean "youth", as in that time of your adolescence when you go through puberty. Y'know, like the stuff you see in high school anime plots: becoming interested in boys/girls/etc., falling in love, dealing with confusing emotions, teen rebellion and mood swings in general, and so on. For example, whenever my cousin is being rebellious, my aunt literally says that he's "going through puberty", even though he's nearly 18. What she's technically saying is "he's in his rebellious youthful phase right now". So, Pito probably meant a story with You as a moody teen grappling with her emotions at a time when most of her peers would have found their balance, rather than a story where You literally deals with hormones and physical body growth and stuff.]

I love reading Pito's tweets, because there's usually a reply attached to the original drawing/comic that gives some background or unique insight into what's going on. For example, in this adorable childhood KanaMari image, you can see that Mari is impressed by Kanan's find and Kanan is happy to share it with her. But in a follow-up tweet, Pito explains what's really happening: Kanan is so tickled by how her new friend Mari always gives positive reactions to her discoveries that she excitedly looks for new things to show her all the time. In reality, Mari doesn't really like everything that Kanan brings to her - she just likes Kanan, period. BaKanan.

...whoops, sorry for the wall of text. tl;dr: alternative interpretations of You are awesome, and Pito has some great headcanons about the characters not just in the comics, but in tweets that follow those images as well.

last edited at Apr 15, 2017 1:01PM

Yujacha, thank you for adding that information about PITOs most recent kanamari post! I've always loved his works and felt like he was a really nice and outgoing person.. I wish there wasn't such a language barrier because I don't know Korean at all, but I'm thankful Japanese works some of the time when talking to him.

Despite what goes on in the Dynasty forums, I hope this is a positive experience for PITO and he ends up feeling more comfortable working with English translators/translation teams. I feel like his work has always kind of captured the personalities of the LL! girls really well.

Yujacha posted:
And yeah, if Pito saw this thread, I'd guess that their response would be something like "???? it's just You-chan as always, she just happens to have a penis

That was my feeling too.

The gender of You isn't an issue. It's not even mentioned in the original.

Some people here just want it to be one, because it helps them further some kind of cause the author doesn't care one bit about.

Some people here just want it to be one, because it helps them further some kind of cause the author doesn't care one bit about.

I'd really appreciate it if people would stop with the bad takes on why trans people are upset, thanks.

I was talking in general and my remark applies also to people denying that You can be female.

Don't make me say what I don't say.

And I know why some trans people are upset. Don't talk for all of them.

last edited at Apr 15, 2017 1:49PM

I find the story in Mermaid Line pretty good, and there's stuff I like in Double House and....um....Honey & Honey I guess?

Double House is beautiful. Someone just commented in the forums about Cotton Candy Love, and it's really nice, although slightly triggering (the sexual harassment bit).

I like Mermaid Line, it's got some really sweet moments, but the way I see it, it also has a few problems (1 - "gender identity disorder" is patologization; 2 - It says several times that Aika was "born a boy", "physically a boy", "born in the wrong body", those delegitimize trans people like me who don't feel in the wrong bodies, just in the wrong imposed gender; 3 - saying that a trans woman using women's clothes is "crossdressing" is odd;). Also, it's hard for me to relate to Aika because she's just too stereotypically feminine, and well, I'm not at all ^-^.

As for Honey & Honey, my only problem with it is transgender men always being referred to as "FtM", rather than as "trans men", but this one's ok, I guess.

last edited at Apr 15, 2017 2:01PM

At the time Mermaid Line was written, those were still pretty common terminology, even in the west. I can't really judge it too harshly because they didn't know which direction the culture (in another country no less) was going to move. When I started to transition, there was considerable resistance to the word "transgender", but within a few years it was the default. Life comes at you fast.