I get all the responses to what I said here, just am not really up for individually responding to them. I'll just note that it was sparked by the idea of promoting this kind of material as "pure love" or however LoliCake put it. Sure there's such a thing as over-regulation, but it's already clear that there are limits to freedom of speech. You can't threaten to kill or assault someone, falsely yell "Fire!" in a crowded building, among other things that could cause potential harm. In particular, the US regulates how smoking can be advertised, and that it can't be intentionally advertised to children. So when I was saying Japan is behind the times on banning, I meant that they should ban the promotion of hypersexualized or pornographic depictions of children, something that we do have in the US. That's just how I feel about the topic; clearly several of you disagree, and that perfectly fine.

But those books tends to be rated 18+, so they're not supposed to end up between the hands of children. And during my stay in japan, never saw any advertisement for things such as oshiko sensei, so it's not like they'd promote them. Just that they don't go on a which hunt on those materials as a lot of western countries do.

I tend to be more miffed at how some people in general get all butthurt about loli characters, but at the same time will have no qualm enjoying "fake-loli" characters when the only difference between the two is that for one, book says she's 18+.

Didn't Japan already bring in some legislation years ago which is why Kodomo no Jikan got canned?

Didn't Japan already bring in some legislation years ago which is why Kodomo no Jikan got canned?

If we're trusting Wikipedia, it wasn't a Japanese law, but US ones that stopped its production here.

Among other things:
http://time.com/2892728/japan-finally-bans-child-pornography/
This is a headline I'd already seen, so yes, child porn is finally banned in Japan.
"The new law does not include the banning of anime and manga that feature explicit scenes of children, after lawyers and publishers argued that censoring the materials would curb free speech."
Which is a diplomatic way of saying the manga and anime industry put a lot of money into lobbying against it.

I tend to be more miffed at how some people in general get all butthurt about loli characters, but at the same time will have no qualm enjoying "fake-loli" characters when the only difference between the two is that for one, book says she's 18+.

Interestingly, that doesn't fly in Canada. The text can say a character or model is 18+, but if they look sufficiently underage in the eyes of customs agents, then they can block it.

As to the loli-pedophelia connection, I doubt that loli manga in isolation is a problem. The problem comes into play when combined with other elements outside of manga to foster a climate of seeing children as sexual, and willing participants in sexual acts. Which is why something like Flower Picking especially bugs me, since it combines some nasty tropes. But by itself, no big deal.

We don't really have very much loli stuff here, per se, and we do present it to some degree in isolation. So as above, not a big problem even if I personally find the majority of it distasteful. But I would resist promoting it as the OP would like.

last edited at May 19, 2016 8:52AM

Nezchan posted:

As to the loli-pedophelia connection, I doubt that loli manga in isolation is a problem. The problem comes into play when combined with other elements outside of manga to foster a climate of seeing children as sexual, and willing participants in sexual acts.

Kinda sounds like the issue of "violent games cause people to be violent" when in reality it's not remotely like that and the only negative effects violent games have on people is when they're already mentally unstable.

Nezchan posted:

As to the loli-pedophelia connection, I doubt that loli manga in isolation is a problem. The problem comes into play when combined with other elements outside of manga to foster a climate of seeing children as sexual, and willing participants in sexual acts.

Kinda sounds like the issue of "violent games cause people to be violent" when in reality it's not remotely like that and the only negative effects violent games have on people is when they're already mentally unstable.

You are correct in that what you mention, like "loli causes/is pedophelia", are both gross oversimplifications of what's actually being talked about by people serious about both topics.

I don't really like it, because most of the time, consent is doubtful.

In all your "favorites", only the Itou Hachi stuff is okay. The rest is just loli porn and ranges from boring to creepy.

Age gap, on the other hand, from around 15 yo and up, if done well, can be interesting, as long as it doesn't involve onscreen sex. Hanjoukou Joshi's side characters were okay, mostly because it was the younger one who was taking charge. Hoshikawa Ginza District 4 passes too, because it's pretty tame and you feel there are "real" feelings on both sides, and they only kiss.

Age gap, on the other hand, from around 15 yo and up, if done well, can be interesting, as long as it doesn't involve onscreen sex. Hanjoukou Joshi's side characters were okay, mostly because it was the younger one who was taking charge.

The younger in that couple was 17 or 18 by that point, and is on the verge of graduation. So it's not like a teacher x middle school student pairing.

last edited at May 19, 2016 3:33PM

It is basically the best thing ever, there is not nearly enough of it. Especially not enough of older women in relationships with loli.
I think anything that could be done to promote it would be good and fly in the face of anti-loli fascists.

last edited at May 19, 2016 3:36PM

It's something that Japan is behind the times on banning.

Limiting the freedom of speech is not something that should be considered progress, especially limiting the ability to create art and fiction.

If there are explicit depictions of sex in them, it would count as child pornography by US law.

No, it isn't, Ashcroft vs Free Speech Association struck down that provision, the only virtual pornography that is illegal in the us is that which is indistinguishable from real child pornography.

I'm 90% certain the OP was simply trolling but ya'll took it seriously and I have no words...

well, actually i do have a few:

• lack of consent
• unequal power dynamics
• sexual manipulation
• romanticizing criminal behavior

I'm 90% certain the OP was simply trolling but ya'll took it seriously and I have no words...

Doesn't mean you can't make a healthy discussion out of it though

I think this is pretty much my favorite set of it ever
http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=48669734

It's too bad there isn't too much stuff on the tag
www.pixiv.net/search.php?s_mode=s_tag_full&word=おねロリ

transbikes posted:

I'm 90% certain the OP was simply trolling but ya'll took it seriously and I have no words...

I bet he wasn't but he never thought that we would take it so seriously... I think that's why he has no words either

lolicon.... no.... age gap.... sure. I have a young little sister and reading anything with lolicon material in it just feels a bit.... gross.........

Serenata posted:

transbikes posted:

I'm 90% certain the OP was simply trolling but ya'll took it seriously and I have no words...

I bet he wasn't but he never thought that we would take it so seriously... I think that's why he has no words either

It sounded like pretty obvious trolling but I and it seems everyone else, decided to give OP a benefit of the doubt and instead of ridicule their post from the get go and dismiss it as simple trolling, actually give them a proper respond.

dofudofu posted:

but it's already clear that there are limits to freedom of speech.

Things like that just proves people have no clue how freedom of speech actually works.

I don't think he was trolling, I think he wanted more loli age-gap yuri, or maybe to talk about it.

i think it's silly to assume that this thread was started to troll people when this site has lolicon manga and images, some of which was linked to in the actual first post.

if you provide something then eventually you're gonna have people around who are into it.

almond posted:

i think it's silly to assume that this thread was started to troll people when this site has lolicon manga and images, some of which was linked to in the actual first post.

if you provide something then eventually you're gonna have people around who are into it.

The manga itself wasn't a issue. It was more the way OP was phrased, but I couldn't decided if it was actual troll or not.

I think sometimes it can make for a very interesting story, such as in District 4, and sometimes it can make for a very gross uncomfortable rape scene.

It really seems to depend on execution and how the story treats the agency of the younger person. I find things like the loli/teacher couple in Sonohana really borderline, for instance, because the younger character is clearly the driving personality in the relationship, but the older person has tremendous power over them. At the end of the day, the key is how the couple deals with consent and the issues that surround it, and the majority of Oneeloli I find is pretty poor on that.

I can't stand loli age gap, it's basically taking advantage of a child for your entertainment.

Agreed. It's kind of disgusting most of the times.

Honestly, I never thought about specifically searching for a loli + age gap. The only one I read was "Hoshikawa Ginza District 4", and I found it to be rather enjoyable, but I got to it because it was by Kurogane Ken, rather than looking for a loli story. Still, as I said, it was enjoyable, but then again, it was not really graphic, the social stigma was addressed, rather than just ignored, and it managed to convey both parties' sincere and serious feelings, without the younger one looking immature, or the older one looking manipulating.
Most cases, it is just not my cup of tea, if the child is depicted as an actual child, rather than mature-for-their-years, mentality-wise. Children are stupid, and I just can not take them as serious characters (and if they are paired with an adult, that becomes even more pronounced, in my opinion). That being said, I have nothing against it either.

it's already clear that there are limits to freedom of speech. You can't threaten to kill or assault someone, falsely yell "Fire!" in a crowded building, among other things that could cause potential harm. In particular, the US regulates how smoking can be advertised, and that it can't be intentionally advertised to children.

In particular, what does any of that have to do with lolis in manga? What is the actual harm of those manga?

"The new law does not include the banning of anime and manga that feature explicit scenes of children, after lawyers and publishers argued that censoring the materials would curb free speech."
Which is a diplomatic way of saying the manga and anime industry put a lot of money into lobbying against it.

Be that as it may, it would curb free speech.

I have no words...

well, actually i do have a few:

• lack of consent
• unequal power dynamics
• sexual manipulation
• romanticizing criminal behavior

I have just one:

• fiction seriously, try it, you will be amazed at what you can find there ;)

last edited at May 19, 2016 7:50PM

I get all the responses to what I said here, just am not really up for individually responding to them. I'll just note that it was sparked by the idea of promoting this kind of material as "pure love" or however LoliCake put it. Sure there's such a thing as over-regulation, but it's already clear that there are limits to freedom of speech. You can't threaten to kill or assault someone, falsely yell "Fire!" in a crowded building, among other things that could cause potential harm. In particular, the US regulates how smoking can be advertised, and that it can't be intentionally advertised to children. So when I was saying Japan is behind the times on banning, I meant that they should ban the promotion of hypersexualized or pornographic depictions of children, something that we do have in the US. That's just how I feel about the topic; clearly several of you disagree, and that perfectly fine.

I agree with you. Just because they are fictional characters it doesn't mean it's 100% pure. Because, the people who read this, some start to accept this whole idea too. Sounds too much, but this is actually how the human mind starts to consider things normal- when it gets too overexposed to it. I'm not sayinng loli mangas are being shown to the people every day for the real thing to be accepted, but this is still bothering me. Especially in yaoi

I personally don't like loli or incest because it just reminds me of real life people in this situations. Of course not everyone sees it as such though.

[...] What is the actual harm of those manga?

I guess mostly this:

[...] I get it makes some people uncomfortable, just as other people are uncomfortable with gory violence.

I.e.: "This makes me feel unconfortable, so I want it to disappear."