Forum › Definition of Yuri. What it is and what isn't.
Also, Swap Swap don't have any romance at all and they're not gay, now Shinozaki is without doubt gay and have interest in a girl, that's why one can really be called yuri while the other not.
jfc.It's a goddamn excuse of a setting to casually introduce yuri and whatever the fuck may come later. Like what the hell, do you think it's het? It's been 5 freakin chapters, they're warming up to each other, can't you please let this go?
If you watched some other body swapin' manga with a guy and a girl kissing like all the time, but oh wait, there isn't CONCRETLY feelings, it's not het????Why are you guys making such tight criteria and thus fuckin directly excluding a bunch of stuff from being categorized as yuri????
I've never read such a frustrating thread before, where most people's opinions here mean completely denying so many manga/anime/whatever
As if suddenly, some manga/anime/whatever arent GAY enough or explicitly ROMANTIC to deserve the noble title of yuri.ffs.
Legit, the only ongoing manga I can think about right now that's so ambiguous in where it's heading is the cooking girls/sisters manga.
You can't blame people for being cautious.
Just look at Stretch.
I'm not looking. I don't even want to remember.... DAMMIT SHOU!!! sniff
And to a certain extent it was. It never reached the canon, the explicit ending we wanted, but can you really say that it didn't fit what we usually identify as yuri?
A lot of series aren't romance, but it doesnt make them any less gay/yuri. And when it isn't romance, when the purpose of the series isn't x characters getting together, it doesn't need that kinda explicit romantic ending.
last edited at Dec 21, 2015 9:23PM
Why are you getting so upset? This thread is about everyone's OPINIONS - it's not really like any of this really matters. This is just what people think, so if what they think is different or wrong to you that's fine. To be honest, I don't really care about what people consider to be truly "yuri" or not, but I'm following the discussion because it's pretty amusing to a point.
What did you get upset enough to all caps OPINIONS? oO
ok, can someone catch me up? where the heck did this all start from? i read page 1 of this thread, and it sounds like it start from a different thread. which manga/thread and how did this end up into a mini-conniption fit?
ok, can someone catch me up? where the heck did this all start from? i read page 1 of this thread, and it sounds like it start from a different thread. which manga/thread and how did this end up into a mini-conniption fit?
http://dynasty-scans.com/forum/topics/9095-swap-swap-discussion?page=9
Y'all calm down a bit, or I'm turning this car around.
By which I mean I'll kill the thread if it gets too far out of hand.
Y'all calm down a bit, or I'm turning this car around.
By which I mean I'll kill the thread if it gets too far out of hand.
I know it's not my place to say this, but please don't. This thread is containing all the nonsense that would otherwise be directed to and ruin completely irrelevant series threads.
ok, can someone catch me up? where the heck did this all start from? i read page 1 of this thread, and it sounds like it start from a different thread. which manga/thread and how did this end up into a mini-conniption fit?
http://dynasty-scans.com/forum/topics/9095-swap-swap-discussion?page=9
thanks :-)
Y'all calm down a bit, or I'm turning this car around.
By which I mean I'll kill the thread if it gets too far out of hand.
I know it's not my place to say this, but please don't. This thread is containing all the nonsense that would otherwise be directed to and ruin completely irrelevant series threads.
Then it falls to the commenters to take the simple action of not being butts. Shouldn't be that difficult.
I consider any manga yuri if there's a lesbian/bisexual female character (and doesn't have a male romantic partner).
I think that's a bit too vague. You should at least specify that their sexuality has at least some amount of focus in the story. Ie: A character who is incidentally gay but whose sexual preference or romantic relationships aren't at all a focus wouldn't really count for yuri but a side character whose sexual preference/relationships are a focus, even a little, would.
^I feel like that's more of a difference between "has yuri" and "is yuri" though. Like, Random Dating Sim is a romance game while Dragon Age is a game with romance.
Why are you getting so upset? This thread is about everyone's OPINIONS - it's not really like any of this really matters. This is just what people think, so if what they think is different or wrong to you that's fine. To be honest, I don't really care about what people consider to be truly "yuri" or not, but I'm following the discussion because it's pretty amusing to a point.
What did you get upset enough to all caps OPINIONS? oO
To be honest, it's not that I'm upset at anything. In truth, I really do find this discussion interesting - I didn't mean to sound disparaging with my previous post, and looking back at it it kinda was so sorry about that. Yuri truly is Serious Business.
As for my two cents, I think of yuri as a genre describing women being romantically or sexually involved with other women. If the work features bisexual women but the primary focus is between female/female relations, I think I'd consider that yuri as well. I don't think one would consider a work that includes a female/female relation but isn't the main focus of the story to be yuri, but your mileage may vary.
As to whether non-Japanese works can be yuri, in my opinion that's highly subjective to each person, similarly to whether someone someone would consider an anime-styled cartoon to really be anime or not, but probably in a less broad fashion. For example, you would definitely not consider Adventure Time to be an anime, but you could consider the Marceline/Bubblegum to be yuri - it just depends on how restrictive one's definition of yuri is.
I'm not really sure if the Japanese have an "official" definition to what yuri is, though. All of the above is just what I consider yuri, and is probably different from what others think. Hopefully this all makes sense!
Male homoeroticism has been a prominent feature in fiction for basically as long as fiction has existed.
True, but we know 100% sure in most cases that the guys are indeed straight without doubt, while in yuri they go in that maybe she's gay, maybe not, you never know, cause they act super gay but call themselves friends, never question their sexuality, and even thought they're obviously attracted to each other they'll never ever think of the possibility of being gay even if they see each other naked, touch each other, grope, kiss and so on, at the end they will go closest possible to crossing the line but we'll end with something like "I hope we can always be together/I love you, my best friend~~", you don't see that with guys, never...
I can probably answer that, at least in an extremely broad an general sense.
Females tend to place more importance on romantic elements while males tend to place more importance on non-romance (humor, cuteness, sexiness, etc). This is why female-targeted romance series the characters tend to get together near immediately, and the relationship is always progressing in some tangible way, while male-targeted romance series will either have no progression of any kind or, when trying to be serious, the characters overdramatize fairly simple issues and agonize over them ad nauseam, never actually resolving them. It is also possibly why a number of people here refuse to accept and yuri series without a real, serious, definite relationship.
Anyway, BL as a genre is basically exclusively read by females, so it generally needs to have heavy and more serious romantic elements. Basically no males read it. And for the girls that just want to watch hot guys be hot, there's shounen sports to satisfy them. So there's not a huge demand for stuff that is more subtle and in the middle. The nearest thing you could probably call a middle ground is reverse harem, where the guys will often act somewhat homoerotic toward each other, but are still obviously dedicated entirely to the main heroine.
Meanwhile, the demographic that reads yuri is a more mixed bag. You've got lesbian girls that want to see real romance between two women. You've got men who care more about the girls and situations being cute / sexy than they do about any romance. You've got straight girls who just like cute things, and just want to watch girls look and act cute, so they don't care as much about serious romance.
So yuri is more fractured than BL because the demographic that reads it is much more varied.
Yuri is love.
Yuri is life.
True, but we know 100% sure in most cases that the guys are indeed straight without doubt, while in yuri they go in that maybe she's gay, maybe not, you never know, cause they act super gay but call themselves friends, never question their sexuality, and even thought they're obviously attracted to each other they'll never ever think of the possibility of being gay even if they see each other naked, touch each other, grope, kiss and so on, at the end they will go closest possible to crossing the line but we'll end with something like "I hope we can always be together/I love you, my best friend~~", you don't see that with guys, never...
Dunno. My interest in yaoi is fairly recent compared to yuri and I don't have a global vision of this genre yet, but Thomas no Shinzou, Princess Princess or Loveless (at least the anime, didn't read the manga yet), three classics of the yaoi sphere, seems to fit perfectly that description.
On Dynasty, we even have Trap days which have that kind of ending too. But it's a "yaoi seinen otokonoko" manga, it's far from being representative of the genre as a whole.
I don't say that the yaoi manga with subtext or "blurred ambiguity" constitute the majority of the genre, in contrary yaoi have that reputation of being more explicit than yuri in general (and I agree with that reputation). But that kind of works exists, and some of them are very popular.
Anyway, BL as a genre is basically exclusively read by females
While I agree that the yuri demographic is more diverse than the yaoi one, men readership of yaoi isn't negligible at all.
For example a quotation from an American editor (Yaoi Press):
At everythingyaoi.com I'm seeing 25% to 30% of the orders placed by men. At the conventions there's around the same percentage of men buying the books at the booth. I've heard people say that 90-95% of people who buy yaoi are women. My experience shows 25-30% are men.
– GloBLisation and Hybridisation
While in Japan, I have a physical French revue (dated from 2008) saying that if the male readership of the yaoi magazines is negligible (around 1%), it's not the case concerning the volumes in libraries, with a male readership estimated around 25 and 30% (so, same numbers than in America).
Why are you getting so upset? This thread is about everyone's OPINIONS
The problem is most people saying what is yuri and what isn't don't say it as opinion, but as fact. "This manga isn't published in yuri magazine, so it isn't yuri" for example. I don't mind opinions, but so many people stated their opinions as ultimate fact and tried to convince other from thinking otherwise/saying that for them it is yuri, that it become hard to ignore and annoying.
It is what I say it is, now stop arguing and go clean your room!
It is what I say it is, now stop arguing and go clean your room!
Yes, mom T__T
It is what I say it is, now stop arguing and go clean your room!
I was at work before so I couldn't post, so here a wall of text!
So yuri is more fractured than BL because the demographic that reads it is much more varied.
Not going to quote everything but that's basically my problem with yuri, if guys want to see sexy girls there's thousands of mangas full of fanservice they can read, if they want just cheap fap material they can easily find hentai and porn in the internet, as for guys and girls that want to see cute girls doing cute things there's various slice of life that is nothing more than that, there's pretty much no reason to do mangas for those demographics in yuri magazines, it's annoying but it's pretty much only yuri that tries to include more than it should, of course from a commercial point I can understand, after all yuri is pretty niche so they might not have choice but do some like that to attract more buyers, but of course that is if the manga we're calling yuri is indeed in yuri magazine, if it's in any other magazine then I guess it's fair game.
Dunno. My interest in yaoi is fairly recent compared to yuri and I don't have a global vision of this genre yet, but Thomas no Shinzou, Princess Princess or Loveless (at least the anime, didn't read the manga yet), three classics of the yaoi sphere, seems to fit perfectly that description.
On Dynasty, we even have Trap days which have that kind of ending too. But it's a "yaoi seinen otokonoko" manga, it's far from being representative of the genre as a whole.
I don't say that the yaoi manga with subtext or "blurred ambiguity" constitute the majority of the genre, in contrary yaoi have that reputation of being more explicit than yuri in general (and I agree with that reputation). But that kind of works exists, and some of them are very popular.
You're right, when I said never it was too much, there is definitely some few that are pretty much nothing more than subtext or blurred ambiguity, Princess Princess is one of the few I can remember, it's even from a mangaka that do mainly yaoi and I can't help but wonder why she didn't made it outright yaoi (i=i), Thomas no Shinzou I didn't even knew so I can't give opinion, Trap Days I think I read it before but long ago so I don't remember anything to give opinion, but Loveless I read a little about it, I don't know about the anime but in the manga from what I remember reading from spoilers it starts kind of ambiguous but with time becomes obvious there is sexual and romantic attraction between the main characters, at least the adult I know for sure he pretty much wants to have more than friendship with the shota, it's still ongoing and is licensed so I didn't found much more info, and I never searched for more either so I don't know how it is their relationship now.
My problem is that in mangas that are full of yaoi subtext they rarely are as gay as yuri, it's pretty much only emotional gayness, it's few who are more gay like Princess Princess, while yuri besides the obvious emotional gayness they do in some cases really heavy skinship, deep romantic kisses and so on and then they come with "between girls it doesn't count!" bullshit, they're just playing aroung and they're all straight, in most cases they don't even think about the possibility of being gay or if what they're doing is not something most straight girls would not do, while in mangas that are yaoi subtext a lot of then the characters know pretty well how gay they look, but of course I'm talking about when they look like guys, when they're traps then it's another story because a lot of times the characters act very gay because they want, normally to screw with others, not to mention that in a lot of those mangas full of yaoi subtext the guys even have female love interest but even when it don't have, which is rare, they still try to make more obvious they're straight even with all the heavy subtext, while yuri subtext sometimes they don't even try because they try to show it as something normal between close friends and so they're not remotely gay even with various moments saying otherwise.
Anyway, BL as a genre is basically exclusively read by females
While I agree that the yuri demographic is more diverse than the yaoi one, men readership of yaoi isn't negligible at all.
There is definitely man who read yaoi, althought most is not very good I noticed more yaoi that seens worth to read being translated in the last two years, all that I know is that the main reason a lot of man don't read yaoi, ignoring the gay factor obviously, is because most yaois are basically a shoujo, a jerk rapist seme with a submissive cute uke, and that's not to mention when the uke is androginous and innocent, a lot of yaois you could change the uke for a girl and the story would be almost the same, from what I remember reading on the subject it's one of the reasons gay man in japan tends to hate yaoi, because they're unrealistc and made by woman for woman too look at hot guys making out.
Why are you getting so upset? This thread is about everyone's OPINIONS
The problem is most people saying what is yuri and what isn't don't say it as opinion, but as fact. "This manga isn't published in yuri magazine, so it isn't yuri" for example. I don't mind opinions, but so many people stated their opinions as ultimate fact and tried to convince other from thinking otherwise/saying that for them it is yuri, that it become hard to ignore and annoying.
Well you're right, I have to admit that reading later some of my posts look more like I'm saying a fact than a opinion, sorry if anyone felt unconfortable with that, but unfortunately it is a fact that not being published in a yuri magazine and not being promoted as yuri are some pretty big obstacles for those mangas to really be considered yuri, specially because in most of them they don't see each other as nothing more than friends, I admit that some are really more open to interpretation and we can really argue they're yuri, but most not so much unfortunately.
Okay this post was way bigger than I planned, in case someone feels that the post is incomplete in some way it because it probably is, I thought about it during work and thought about it again while I wrote it so it's quite possible something was lost in the way...
last edited at Dec 22, 2015 5:36PM
Could we at least stop comparing yuri with yaoi? Even on subtext level.
Sure, something like Swap Swap with guys would never exist, because the genres have different objectives. Swap Swap with men would be about a seme guy forcing himself on a uke guy, to begin with. Maybe even switch the kisses by sex, since that's the point of yaoi.
Also, yeah, slice of life series aren't meant to be yuri. Most of the do feature yuri though, because these series attract yuri fans.
Also, considering that a lot of yuri authors are working on series like Manga Tima Kirara titles, could we really say it's not intentionally romantic?
These girls never say they're straight, to begin with. You're just assuming they are because they're never saying that they're lesbians. That kind of view is way more heteronormative than the manga itself.
Could we at least stop comparing yuri with yaoi? Even on subtext level.
Sure, something like Swap Swap with guys would never exist, because the genres have different objectives. Swap Swap with men would be about a seme guy forcing himself on a uke guy, to begin with. Maybe even switch the kisses by sex, since that's the point of yaoi.
Yaoi don't always have different objectives, there's lot of yaois that are extremely good and deep like yuri, they're not all just about sex, I compare them because both are about homosexual relationships but only yuri suffer some restrictions.
Also, yeah, slice of life series aren't meant to be yuri. Most of the do feature yuri though, because these series attract yuri fans.
Also, considering that a lot of yuri authors are working on series like Manga Tima Kirara titles, could we really say it's not intentionally romantic?
One of the reasons I said some we really can argue they're yuri is because the mangaka did yuri or yaoi before, some I'm pretty much sure they would go all the way if they could but the publishers probably don't let them do it.
These girls never say they're straight, to begin with. You're just assuming they are because they're never saying that they're lesbians. That kind of view is way more heteronormative than the manga itself.
True they never said they're straight, but you know what? That's how the world works, homosexuals are the minority, most people and characters are considered straight by default, yuri and yaoi are the only genres we can expect homosexual characters in mangas, this is a slice of life so acting gayish is not the same as being gay, true they didn't say they're straight but the only reason people are considering them more gay is because of the kisses, take that away and it's as gay as any other slice of life with obviously straight girls, and about Ichinose saying things about them being a couple? Would not be the first straight character to joke like that, sorry if you feel offended by what I said but I'm just trying to be realistic here, believing without a doubt that they're completely gays after only 6 chapters is a recipe for disappointment if the manga ends with them being nothing more than friends.
last edited at Dec 22, 2015 6:11PM
believing without a doubt that they're completely gays after only 6 chapters is a recipe for disappointment if the manga ends with them being nothing more than friends.
There's a really easy solution here, just don't expect a romantic conclusion, because the manga is honestly not a romance. You can assume the characters are gay even if they never make that conclusion for you, things don't have to spelled out for the reader. In the first place this is a gag manga at it's core, so being this paranoid is just ridiculous. SOL with straight characters doesn't have to end with them hooking up even when there's romantic subtext, you wouldn't default to assuming they're gay.