Now that I quit reading, it's very funny to see these super serious discussions about social and societal significance of cucking. I realize the irony here.

A lot of fetishes aren't for everyone, but in most cases when someone sees fetish content that isn't for them they just move on by to find something that they actually like, but for some reason NTR specifically seems to make people so enraged that they feel the need to loudly proclaim their hatred of the media it's creators, and it's audience.

I'm not sure this is true. Eg, furries, so called 'lolicon', and more elicit a lot of anger online. NTR may still be a lot closer to what a lot of people are afraid of experiencing. Especially for men, for many of whom perceived "demasculation" would be a very a real safety concern.

It's been established that people subconsciously treat fiction like they're experiencing what the protagonist does, so it's not surprising when we get these reactions to this. We see something similar with non-sexual social humiliation, eg, re:zero anime season 1, where a subset of people get very very angry in a way they can't explain logically.

For me at least as someone that identifies in a very gender neutral way my issues with NTR don't have anything to do with masculinity in regard to my personal identity, or lack of masculinity in my case. If anything while I identify as They/Them I find femininity more relatable.

Talking about the broad topic of NTR. The general idea of stealing someone's partner, crush, or related, is gross to me, and I don't think that's an uncommon feeling to have. Especially as NTR often depicts it as a forceful thing, and rape is a common part of NTR. There's a long list of other factors that come up with NTR, including racist factors, homophobia (typically a man stealing and converting a lesbian in a committed relationship, among other aspects in this regard such blackmail), and various other horrible things. There's a lot of reasons to hate NTR in general, and many of those reasons can be explained very logically.

As for this work specifically. My initial point was that while I typically hate NTR, for what I think are very logical reasons, at the very least this specific work so far isn't going into many of the aspects of why I personally hate NTR normally. Plus in my opinion this isn't hitting the same incel levels as hetero NTR often does, and doesn't carry all of the weight and problems that the dominating male figure usually brings with hetero NTR. There was back and forth discussion here that ultimately led to a point of agreeing to disagree.

I imagine there will be people that don't agree with me, some that don't see where I'm coming from, and possibly some misunderstanding of what I'm saying here. However if possible I'd like to leave my thoughts here and move on from this uncomfortable subject.

It's certainly true that het NTR is often suffused with incel ideology. Frequently the underlying assumption is that women are inherently unfaithful and will automatically fall for a "manly man" (usually symbolized in porn by having a huge dick). The masochistic appeal of the fetish to its male target audience is specifically of "you" as a weak "beta male" getting the girl you loved stolen by an "alpha male" whom, of course, the girl must inevitably love because That's How Women Are.

In that sense it is true that this chapter is much different. Otagiri, despite her physical strength, is certainly not an "alpha"; in character design and personality she's much more similar to the "beta male" who gets cucked, actually. And Shishido is falling for her not because Women Are Unfaithful but because she's the world's biggest sub lol. So even though it definitely -- deliberately -- matches the typical NTR plot structure, the details end up giving it a very different feel, even apart from the fact that they're all girls.

In that sense it is true that this chapter is much different. Otagiri, despite her physical strength, is certainly not an "alpha"; in character design and personality she's much more similar to the "beta male" who gets cucked, actually.

Aside from the NTR topic, I think comparing the range male character design has vs female characters design has doesn’t work for the argument, especially for anime and manga.
Because male characters have a lot of variety, meanwhile female characters doesn’t deviate too much from the bishojo/moe design, this is true for all demographics and genres.
There is a reason we don’t have female Ugly Bastards.
In design, women are never ugly or gross or plain (in the same way the “beta” male designs are) Basically you can’t compare female and male anime archetypes by appearance and only by personality and-or actitudes. We know Otagiri is “lame” because it’s explained to us that she is a loner and a otaku, but aside from her baggy eyes, her appearance is not different from the other girls. Her same design with a shorter skirt and without the baggy eyes could easily be the sleepy beauty archetype in another story for example.
physical strength is also something unretaled to the body of characters in anime, and much more true for female designs (sadly)

About NTR, my point was that the “incel particles“ are ingrained in the trope, it doesn’t matter the sex of the parties. Obviously some works more than others.

last edited at Sep 1, 2026 11:51PM

In design, women are never ugly or gross or plain (in the same way the “beta” male designs are) Basically you can’t compare female and male anime archetypes by appearance and only by personality and-or actitudes. We know Otagiri is “lame” because it’s explained to us that she is a loner and a otaku, but aside from her baggy eyes, her appearance is not different from the other girls. Her same design with a shorter skirt and without the baggy eyes could easily be the sleepy beauty archetype in another story for example.

While you're right that male characters are generally allowed to be uglier than female characters, I think you universalize this point too much. In my view, Otagiri is pretty clearly drawn as "plainer" than the other girls, especially Shishido. And her being a loner nerd isn't just "explained" to us, it's explicitly shown by her actions. I honestly think it's just really obvious that she's much closer to a female "lame loser nerd" NTR protag than she is to a female "alpha male badass" NTR cuckolder. And of course, perhaps even more to the point, Ruru in this chapter is extremely different from typical NTR protags. So it's much more than just the genders that makes this chapter different from usual NTR fare.

About NTR, my point was that the “incel particles“ are ingrained in the trope, it doesn’t matter the sex of the parties. Obviously some works more than others.

I disagree with this. NTR, in the abstract, is just about fetishized cheating; in itself it doesn't necessarily embody incel ideology. It just frequently does for the reasons I explained in my previous post. Now, this series does have a little bit of that with Shishido being a hyper-masochist who's forced into sexual situations while (not-so-)secretly loving it, but it's still a lot less than typical het NTR.

While you're right that male characters are generally allowed to be uglier than female characters, I think you universalize this point too much. In my view, Otagiri is pretty clearly drawn as "plainer" than the other girls, especially Shishido. And her being a loner nerd isn't just "explained" to us, it's explicitly shown by her actions.

I used explained my bad again eng is not a language I manage so my point was exactly that is explicitly show to us by her actions. Her design is more plain yes, but she is not especially plain either (the baggy eyes and long skirt are there to show she is Plain Girl, but without the baggy eyes she could just be a Girl) the other girls are gyaru so the comparision imo doesn’t work, Ruru is also the gyaru type. I agree she is obviously draw to look “plain” but my point is exactly that, even her “plain” design make her pleasant visually, she doesn’t deviate from moe/bishojo (because its the author artstyle, not problem with that, just to clarify I am not complaining about the author or fem chara designs in general) I am sure if she looked like Konishi Chiharu the reaction from this chapter or the whole manga would have been different.

I honestly think it's just really obvious that she's much closer to a female "lame loser nerd" NTR protag than she is to a female "alpha male badass" NTR cuckolder. And of course, perhaps even more to the point, Ruru in this chapter is extremely different from typical NTR protags. So it's much more than just the genders that makes this chapter different from usual NTR fare.

My point is that using their apareance doesn’t work not only because female and male design are not equivalent in apareance as women are hardly draw with the same variety of facial features, body shape, etc. but because a lot of times in NTR the women do not cheat with a more “badass” looking guy, in fact it’s with a more ugly/plain or useless/good for nothing guy that is simply better at sex than her capable bf/husband/guy she likes. Trope that ironically this chapter fit.
I think the problem is also that I understand beta and alpla male but these doesn’t work for the conversation either because NTR doesn’t have those rules to follow, apareance is not something related to NTR as a rule or anything, it depends on the author and I only used them to quote the other person.

I think you universalize this point too much.

I am generalizing, but I think is fair and mostly true. I am not saying there are not plain, ugly, etc. or that there isn’t a variety of how female characters look but that even those female characters try to be beautiful or pleasant visually (eg. plain male chara have the ugly route, pleasant route and the actually a hottie route, fem chara only have the beauty/pleasant one) even Tomoko from Watamote is “gross” but that has more to do with how she thinks or what she does than with her apareance (the joke of her brother being beautiful is that if she taked care of her sleep and hair she would also be, but that’s simply not her)

but it's still a lot less than typical het NTR.

That is what I said! Some have it more than others. I used incel to quote the other person but I myself don’t like to use that word, it encompass everything and nothing but I get what it means. My point about “incel particles” being part of NTR is that the idea that is inevitable for someone succumb to good sex as if it was part of our system fit what I would count as “incel”.

last edited at Sep 2, 2026 7:47PM

Yeah I can't think of a young female manga/anime character that's neither good looking nor cute in design without being a joke or parody character. Regardless of how "plain" a female character in manga/anime is, they're always at least "cute". (Though isn't that kinda true in reality as well?)

Sal Jiang has some designs that fall into what I'd consider "probably only visually appealing to a select audience", but then again, they're all emphatically adult characters.

last edited at Sep 2, 2026 11:14AM

Yeah I can't think of a young female manga/anime character that's neither good looking nor cute in design without being a joke or parody character. Regardless of how "plain" a female character in manga/anime is, they're always at least "cute". (Though isn't that kinda true in reality as well?)

Sal Jiang has some designs that fall into what I'd consider "probably only visually appealing to a select audience", but then again, they're all emphatically adult characters.

I can only think of adult characters who are meant to look tough or senior citizens who are sometimes literally grandmas.

Part of this is because what's used to differentiate female and male characters are cutesty stuff like big eyelashes, whereas male characters usually have no eyelashes. At some point red cheeks like wearing blush became very common, often lips are red like wearing lipstick even if it's implausible for them to wear lipstick (eg Balsa in Moribito)*, eg. People usually take these "fashionable" cues as a sign that they're meant to seem attractive, even though, without them, they would not seem like female characters to people at all.

Likewise, with male cross dressers who are drawn femininely, they will lack the lipstick (unless they actually wear lipstick) and big eyelashes. I kind of hate this. It's like a lower level of anthropomorphic animals where the male characters look animals and the female characters are cat girls, lizards that implausibly have breasts, etc. I wish female characters could have a "default" appearance too where appropriate.

In the past, they would sometimes put giant swirly glasses on the female characters to hide their face if they were meant to be ugly, because they had no idea how to actually make them ugly. I think manga artists have gotten a little better at this since then, as they've come up with cues like what people are talking about in the thread.

*Incidentally, she has opportunities to buy lipstick. If we saw her doing it then I wouldn't really have an issue here, as it would be some characterization that she cares about more than fighting where this is a hobby for her. We're however given no indication she has this type of priority when it comes lipstick where she'd seek it out even while living roughly.

last edited at Sep 3, 2026 8:41PM

I was about to comment that this is so goofy but holy paragraph discussion
That’s dynasty for you i guess ToT

oh hell yeah i love seeing girls beat into sexual submission and then forced into falling in love with their abuser

Plus I don't think this carries the same level of intense incel energy that hetero NTR works typically have.

It’s the same tho, the idea of “owning” someone, that person being made the “property” of other person through sex as a humiliating act (“break” the spirit of that person because they start to enjoy the sex) and the cuck feeling sad/humilliated for “losing” but still getting horny lol

It's not the same here, different contexts carry different weights and vibes. Yes the whole "treating her like property" aspect here is gross, though it really doesn't carry the same weight as men doing it. There's a difference between an ecchi lesbian dark comedy having what you're describing, and an often serious hetero work trying to appeal to men that want to steal the partner of another man, while making themselves out to be the superior "Alpha Male" that deserves the woman, while treating her like property. Self victimizing men that usually feel like they have been wronged by women, where for them the usual hetero NTR work is their way of expressing their hate towards women, and desire to sexually dominate and control women. Along with all of the societal and historical weight with how women are treated by men.

I mean, you keep trying to tie this back into "hetero NTR" when there's plenty of actual yuri NTR stories (both hentai and non-hentai) to compare to. If it really requires that idea of inceldom or misogyny, then there should be zero examples of NTR stories that don't involve men whatsoever, and that's just not the case.It just reads like you're trying to find reasons to excuse this particular story so you don't have to feel discomfort in justifying your enjoyment of it.
Maybe that's a harsh interpretation, but that's the tone I'm seeing in everything you're saying, since you keep referring to "it's different from when men are doing it".

It's also not "NTR" in the strict sense. Ruru and Shishido don't have an established romantic relationship; it's a one-way crush that Otagiri is interfering with, which makes it an example of the BSS sub-genre. Otagiri is still physically and sexually dominating Shishido and corrupting her, and Ruru is catching strays as she's forced to witness it happen, while falling into her own depravity in the process. That in itself might be why it feels "different", because it's being erroneously labeled (which, "BSS" has been around since 2015, but somehow still doesn't get classified tag-wise in most places for whatever reason, so).
You can say "oh but it's an ecchi dark comedy, not a serious work", but that's just splitting hairs and doesn't really matter in the context that this is an aspect of the greater NTR genre, by definition. You don't need some "alpha male" stealing a woman from an emasculated man that readers self-insert into to satisfy the conditions of the genre tag, and trying to frame it that way repeatedly in an effort to marginalize the content of this series is disingenuous.

Plus I don't think this carries the same level of intense incel energy that hetero NTR works typically have.

It’s the same tho, the idea of “owning” someone, that person being made the “property” of other person through sex as a humiliating act (“break” the spirit of that person because they start to enjoy the sex) and the cuck feeling sad/humilliated for “losing” but still getting horny lol

It's not the same here, different contexts carry different weights and vibes. Yes the whole "treating her like property" aspect here is gross, though it really doesn't carry the same weight as men doing it. There's a difference between an ecchi lesbian dark comedy having what you're describing, and an often serious hetero work trying to appeal to men that want to steal the partner of another man, while making themselves out to be the superior "Alpha Male" that deserves the woman, while treating her like property. Self victimizing men that usually feel like they have been wronged by women, where for them the usual hetero NTR work is their way of expressing their hate towards women, and desire to sexually dominate and control women. Along with all of the societal and historical weight with how women are treated by men.

I mean, you keep trying to tie this back into "hetero NTR" when there's plenty of actual yuri NTR stories (both hentai and non-hentai) to compare to. If it really requires that idea of inceldom or misogyny, then there should be zero examples of NTR stories that don't involve men whatsoever, and that's just not the case.It just reads like you're trying to find reasons to excuse this particular story so you don't have to feel discomfort in justifying your enjoyment of it.
Maybe that's a harsh interpretation, but that's the tone I'm seeing in everything you're saying, since you keep referring to "it's different from when men are doing it".

It's also not "NTR" in the strict sense. Ruru and Shishido don't have an established romantic relationship; it's a one-way crush that Otagiri is interfering with, which makes it an example of the BSS sub-genre. Otagiri is still physically and sexually dominating Shishido and corrupting her, and Ruru is catching strays as she's forced to witness it happen, while falling into her own depravity in the process. That in itself might be why it feels "different", because it's being erroneously labeled (which, "BSS" has been around since 2015, but somehow still doesn't get classified tag-wise in most places for whatever reason, so).
You can say "oh but it's an ecchi dark comedy, not a serious work", but that's just splitting hairs and doesn't really matter in the context that this is an aspect of the greater NTR genre, by definition. You don't need some "alpha male" stealing a woman from an emasculated man that readers self-insert into to satisfy the conditions of the genre tag, and trying to frame it that way repeatedly in an effort to marginalize the content of this series is disingenuous.

This is a really long personal attack just to end it with calling me disingenuous, ultimately revolving around the fact that I simply don't find this work as uncomfortable as hetero NTR for varied personal reasons from my own perspective. I digress through as I already moved on from this topic almost 2 weeks ago, and yet here you are now necro'ing the topic by responding to an earlier comment I made in a discussion with someone else, where we already progressed and resolved the conversation past the point you're specifically targeting me for by quoting. I'm not getting into this more, and I wish you a pleasant rest of your day/night. As I ended my thoughts in my last comment:

"I imagine there will be people that don't agree with me, some that don't see where I'm coming from, and possibly some misunderstanding of what I'm saying here. However if possible I'd like to leave my thoughts here and move on from this uncomfortable subject."

I like these two but this line here

"I can force you any time"

is very fucking gross and it kinda makes me hate her a bit.

I also hate the annoying midget friend of her that seems to get off on NTR you know that chick will go into the bathroom and masturbated again.

Also I find that very gross, I can't use a public bathroom in general I don't think I could have ever masturbated one when I was in high school or any time after that.

I like these two but this line here

"I can force you any time"

is very fucking gross and it kinda makes me hate her a bit.

I also hate the annoying midget friend of her that seems to get off on NTR you know that chick will go into the bathroom and masturbated again.

Also I find that very gross, I can't use a public bathroom in general I don't think I could have ever masturbated one when I was in high school or any time after that.

This is from an author that made a rape het harem story so stuff like that is in the norm for them.

This is a fun smut yuri manga. I'm a sucker for these lol.

I like these two but this line here

"I can force you any time"

is very fucking gross and it kinda makes me hate her a bit.

I also hate the annoying midget friend of her that seems to get off on NTR you know that chick will go into the bathroom and masturbated again.

Also I find that very gross, I can't use a public bathroom in general I don't think I could have ever masturbated one when I was in high school or any time after that.

Agreed on the line being gross. Though calling the friend a midget because she's short is rude...

This is from an author that made a rape het harem story so stuff like that is in the norm for them.

The more I learn about the creator the less I want to know x_x

"Litature" on page 3 bottom left

oh hell yeah i love seeing girls beat into sexual submission and then forced into falling in love with their abuser

me too, asking for recs, i think i have read a lot like this but they end not sticking with the dynamic or turning it into some Social Commentary. i just want senseless sexual stuff, only manga because manhwa excels in this and i have read almost everything hehe

the hell is going on here?

is very fucking gross and it kinda makes me hate her a bit.

As opposed to everything else that's been happening up until then?

The gist of this manga is Odagiri being actually in love/lust with Himeri and expresses it as bullying, which Himeri actually enjoys, even though she doesn't want to admit it. Side characters each have their own kinks. The art is very nice and sexy, the story is fun for a lot of readers, and whatever the author drew before is irrelevant in my opinion.

To go out of your way to get on a soapbox on behalf of fictional characters is a waste of time. Blacklist the "bullying tag" and just read something else.

It's like this manga was made for me, and I see I'm not on this freakship alone lmao
Violence, perversion, thirsty lesbians around every corner... Just need to sprinkle a tiny bit of fluff on it somewhere and it will be literally perfect lol

Jesus these comments. As if the very essence of this manga is not already dubcon.

I'll say, Shishido being confused by Ruru's reaction made me laugh. Lol, even without the viewer context of the NTR chapter... girl YOU were being felt up by your boo thang in front of her... in public...

Jesus these comments. As if the very essence of this manga is not already dubcon.

Right?
It’s been here from the very beginning (again asking for similar recs)
But also even people who like the manga likes to negate the dubcon, obviously girl is in denial that she likes it, the point is that she is being forced either way xd the arguments “she is in denial of being a masochist” “she is a repressed lesbian” doesn’t change that she was forced, is still being forced AND she likes it lol

Oh we're reaching chapter 7. Can't wait for that one to be English translated and come here.

last edited at Sep 29, 2026 4:01PM

Because male characters have a lot of variety, meanwhile female characters doesn’t deviate too much from the bishojo/moe design, this is true for all demographics and genre

That's a matter of opinion. Personally, I find male designs are way more generic as fuck with boring samey haircuts and boring samey fashion choices.

There is a reason we don’t have female Ugly Bastards

Yeah, the reason is women on average aren't as interested in drawing it. You're not going to find many women into the idea of a woman version of the fat ugly bastard preying on a little boy half her age but the reverse is a pretty common ero manga plotline for male oriented works. (no judgment on this btw I read loli stuff so I'd be a hypocrite if I was)

You are looking at this through an entirely male perspective. Men wouldn't be the ones drawing female fat ugly bastards just as women generally aren't the ones drawing male fat ugly bastards. We can already know what kind of porn women like to draw and it's not that.

So idk what you guys were actually talking about but shishido is cute af

last edited at Sep 30, 2026 11:39PM