I think in this context it means to think about the consequences of your actions. That is important to emphasize as you start getting into less conventional activities. Being thoughtless would eventually get results that are not good, to say the least.

For instance, most people will try to avoid drawing blood since it's a disease vector. If they do draw blood, they will probably not use blades because blades can leave permanent scarring or even accidentally get someone sent to the hospital or killed. If they decide to use blades anyway, ones hopes it is with a lot of caution and an understanding of what to do and what to avoid.

'Normal' BDSM activities like tying someone up may still be seen as not sane by mainstream cultural standards. However, if someone is attending workshops, monitoring the other person closely, and taking the necessary steps to avoid danger then they are still exercising sound judgement. They came to a conclusion at odds with the wider culture, but they weren't thoughtless or unaware of the consequences.

The vagueness comes from each activity needing to be judged on its own merits. A statement of values is a sufficient lead in to a more specific discussion. Debates and disagreements can still be had and, in fact, making space for that is valuable.

This is how I understand it, anyway.

last edited at Aug 26, 2024 7:25PM

I was surprised by this reception to this series on here, as I thought of this as more realistic, stressing communication, and doing a very good job communicating how the dynamic actually feels. The last one more so than any other media I've seen, with this one evoking a visceral reaction in me. The most toxic behavior is from the mom who failed in her past relationships, failed to recreate the old dynamic, and is going to have to learn how to take things slow and foster more sustainable relationships if she wants to have a chance.

However, when I stop to think about the high schooler being a BDSM master, incestuous BDSM in conjunction with the main pairing, highly dramatized interactions emphasizing public play, etc, I realize maybe I've read too many manga. I still find this realistic and relatable by manga standards, but the exaggerated character dynamics and dramatic stories are part of what draws me to manga. "Adult high schoolers" is also something I stopped questioning a while back, due to how common it is.

Edit:

First, I don't think it's the case (it has happened, but not commonly). But also, there is some hope that the moms' relationship isn't doomed. As long as one is alive after the time of LGBT oppression is over (as is the case of those characters), they can go back to what was taken from them.

(previous post)

I think it will work because it seems like they both have no one they're interested in more than the other. The only reason they aren't proceeding is that one of them wants to prioritize her kid until she graduates high school.

The way I see it is that the series tries to depict pitfalls of BDSM. One is that the dom cannot be always on and needs to have space to be vulnerable, like after the bathroom pee scene where Sarasa needed reassurance. We also get "cute hanging out scenes" that don't add a lot to the plot. They seem to exist to drive home the message of needing to have separation between when you are doing BDSM activities and when you aren't, with more typical friendship dynamic being the other part.

With Sarasa's mom (can't remember her name), they seemed to have a lot of prejudice they were dealing with and were unsure about their futures. Sarasa's mom responded by trying to push boundaries as much as possible as often as possible, with the goal of taking ownership. We also see her fantasizing about hurting Mio's mom enough to leave a permanent mark on her. This makes emotional sense to her, as she feels like she get what she wants if she leaves enough of an impact.

One of the themes of the story, as another user put it, is "BDSM as an expression of love". I think this is showing us that you do still have to put in the work and communication to have a sustainable relationship. You cannot just rely on the BDSM dynamics. This is an extension of how sex is often used to sub in for communication in relationships. It gives a feeling of closeness without needing words or understanding, yet always to bad ends. Many people have to learn this from the experience of imploding relationships. Sarasa's mom, who is one of those people, is only now starting to understand the nature of her mistakes.

last edited at Aug 18, 2024 6:46PM

y’all’re great, I should read/post here more. I like mangadex as a website more, but you have an inspired community here. I read all the posts in this thread.

Kanelel - https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/topics/21278-how-i-lose-bets-with-my-sadistic-gifted-childhood-friend-and-she-steals-all-of-my-firsts-discussion?page=2#forum_post_895336

I think you're approaching this all wrong. It's normal to think “oh this is unrealistic, it would be impractical or immoral or unhealthy or toxic to do this in real life” when you see something like this, but if you want to enjoy this kind of media you have to be able to turn that part of your brain off. You have to enjoy this kind of thing on a completely libidinal, illogical level. You have to ignore your logical brain and go with your gut: “do i find this kind of interaction enjoyable or intriguing?” For a lot of people the answer will be no. That's fine. Different strokes for different folks. That's why we have tags on this website. This one's for the freaks (and frankly it's pretty light so far).

Speaking as someone who feels the same way as you, I do think it’s also valid to have consistent moral standards in all aspects of life, as well as to want media to have a clear pro-social message in a world filled with irl toxic relationships and bad communication. I would say that’s true as long they don’t desire to impose their ethos on the rest of us, but, realistically, they couldn’t do that even if they wanted. Still, you are right that someone continuing to read with the mindset is going to have a bad time.

Something I think that forum residents might not understand is that, in a healthy relationship, you can still have the pretense of more ‘questionable’ dynamics, but within clearly defined limits established by communication both before and after you do anything. You could, for instance, embarrass someone by having them be naked around you while you’re fully dressed, but not do anything truly psychologically damaging because you’ve already established limits beforehand.*

The establishment of limits isn’t normally shown in media in the same way there are not conversations about when it’s okay to kiss the protagonist; the main love interest just knows. While some reading this might think it would be weird to talk in advance about something as innocuous as kissing, that in reality is worth doing. You don’t know what associations or past experiences someone has with kissing (eg past trauma history that involved an aggressor kissing them). Having a single conversation about this at some point also will not ruin the romance factor like many fear.

In fiction, that conversation can nonetheless be safely skipped. The love interest will never make any mistakes the author doesn’t want them to make, instead kissing at the perfect time without ever triggering anyone’s PTSD. Likewise, Komaki seems to know Wakaba well enough to avoid crossing the line where she would be actually traumatized. Instead, Komaki brings out Wakaba’s subconscious desires that even Wakaba wouldn’t know to ask for. Komaki does this without any risk of making mistakes the author doesn’t want her to make.

In real life, to achieve this you would need to have had some kind of green light / yellow light / red light conversation, as well as a disengagement plan ready for if either party asks for it. Contrary to the expectations of some, the conversation could be romantic, sexy, or whatever associations people want to have, but skipping the conversation is just not going to end well. I think it would be nice if more media did depict those kinds of conversations. Even in the most vanilla of relationships, many are unfamiliar with a the specifics of communicating boundaries. With less vanilla practices, there is the importance having clear separation between daily life and when you are taking on those kinds of roles.

“Yuri SM de Futari no Kimochi wa Tsunagarimasu ka?” actually does depict both aspects, where major plot points involve how they communicate and stay receptive to each other’s changing needs in the moment. While I would highly recommend it to anyone interested, it’s naturally a very different type of story. It will not fulfill the same emotional desire as a fictional context where the pretense can be reality. That’s why we have stories like this one where it would be a train wreck if someone tried to imitate it irl.

At least some of us who like this type of story do understand not to reenact it as is, meaning our reading is not out of a desire to ignore consent or communication in real life relationships. I would like to think authors are primarily writing for that audience.

*Media where in universe boundaries are being crossed in a way that leaves people emotionally damaged also has its audience, but that’s another topic. This is clearly a “The MC mostly secretly wants it” story, which is a much more popular type of story.

flowsthead - https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/topics/21278-how-i-lose-bets-with-my-sadistic-gifted-childhood-friend-and-she-steals-all-of-my-firsts-discussion?page=12#forum_post_913831

All three series mentioned play around with consent in different ways, but I think the issue we might be coming up against is in the moment consent versus pre-activity consent. Both Bets and Arioto involve very clear pre-activity consent, and then dubious in the moment consent. In real life, that wouldn't be okay, and the in the moment consent is the most important thing. It's like doing BDSM without a safe word, and it's natural to be bothered by it. But part of the premise of these series is that dynamic, otherwise there is no conflict.

5000 yen, on the other hand, is constantly reconfirming in the moment consent. It has to, because they constantly say no to each other, push each other over their limits, and then step back. They break consent with each other all the time as well, hence the novel mentioning when they kick each other or when they say they'll get angry. It works better than the other two though because they're still communicating about the consent (terribly, but they're trying) and they still have hard lines they try not to cross. In contrast to the other two series, their biggest problem is the pre-activity consent. Basing their relationship on the 5000 yen confuses the issue for them, which is why they mess with their limits all the time.

I haven’t read Arioto, but 5000 yen is interesting because them repeatedly misjudging is part of the story. Neither want to do anything that actually damages the other person, so they're constantly trying to figure that aspect out, as well as how to communicate it (eg, by mentioning one of the rules even if it's a stretch). It's like how, in a standard het romantic comedy, the main love interest could misjudge the right time to kiss the MC as part of plot point, albeit only before finally arriving at the appropriate time for the climatic kissing scene. However, a lot of the plot in 5000 yen revolves around the mistakes, rather than it being some singular event that's the exception to the rule.

Compared to “Yuri SM de Futari no Kimochi wa Tsunagarimasu ka?”, where they even have a safe word (related to melons, ironically), 5000 yen kind of feels realistic in a different way. In 5000 yen, they are doing their best learning a skill no one taught them in a context that they have no experience in, naturally making mistakes in the process.

last edited at Aug 4, 2024 7:50PM