My God! Somebody thinks very highly of their self.

Doesn't everyone?

I keep my expectation myself quite low lol

last edited at Aug 5, 2025 9:14PM

My God! Somebody thinks very highly of their self.

Doesn't everyone?

I keep my expectation myself quite low lol

My ego is sky high, my self-worth is in a crater.

There's a very common sentiment among the more amateurish parts of the yuri fandom that Class S is an outdated genre driven by historical compromises and editorial restrictions, rendering it unable to express a 'true' lesbianism because of its focus on symbolism and subtlety.

I agree 100% that westerns have a very closed way of perceiving queerness and are quick to catalog what is and what isn’t queer, unables to accept others perspectives.

When I read lesbian comics from the west that are realistic, they do not look very different from the high school american movies I have seen. Basically, their stories for me are also "unrealistic" but I understand that they work in a context different from mine and with that understanding, I navigate them or at least don’t judge them.

Class-S and sisterhood are probably my favorite tropes in yuri. They are unique, I like the stablished dynamics and aesthetics.
Although I differ a little, even if class-s did not have subtly queerness, it would still be good. I don’t think yuri needs to be queer or realistic to be signifcative or valid.
I understand the value She loves to cook She loves to eat has, but its not my cup of tea as I am not searching for that in yuri.

For example, platonic lesbian relationships in japan were expected-normal in adolescense and outside of yuri, even nowadays lesbians are seen as sexless. So for me yuri having sex scenes, women masturbating, etc. is more subversive than the use of labels.

Otherside Picnic had a “intimate” scene and some reviews in amazon jp were complaining. I saw something similar with a Thai GL fanpage when the protagonists had a bed scene (it was tame lol). Obviously this is not Class-S fault but a example of how this has shaped readers in accepting a specific type of yuri and how fans reacts to more “straight forward” lesbian interaction. Korean yuri suffers from this treatment of not being “real” yuri.
So, as you said. It is a bit fascinating because a lot of what people like about (japanese) yuri derives from Class-S, simultaneously don't liking it but at the same time when a manga completely deviates from the vestiges of class-S the scrutiny of What constitutes a Yuri begins.

But I also believe that this is a topic with multiple angles. A few years ago, Hanamonogatari was re-edited in Japan and the sleeve used the word "Yuri" and the phrase in it was something like "when lilies were still a secret" and japanese lesbians were angry because the media and everyone avoids using the word lesbian. When I Favor the Villainess was aired in japan, some were angry at the LGBT talk. So what is and isn’t subversive also varies depending on your context.

This discussion can go back to what is “queer”. and that also varies from person to person. Even what many non-western people consider queer is based on western queerness. I also think the idea that yuri=lesbians is what generates this discussion.

But I must also contradict myself and say that it stresses me that one can never criticize yuri because suddenly you are a man, you are lesbophobic, have never read yuri and likes shojo/bl, are ignorant about the history of the genre, I am reading in bad faith, I didn’t understand the plot, want to restrict lesbian expression,etc. sometimes it borders anti-intellectualism.

I see a lot happened while I wasn't looking at the comments during the last day or two...

Anyways, this series continues to be great. Thanks for the translation and I'm looking forward to future chapters!

@appstore I find the idea that “because you’re a man, you can’t criticize yuri” both dumb and interesting. To generalize it: yuri, like any other form of literature, should be open to interpretation. You consume it, reflect on it, and then share your thoughts, whether those are critical or full of praise.
If you're a man or a woman, part of the LGBTQ+ community or not, as long as you engage with yuri thoughtfully and don’t hold a narrow-minded belief that it exists solely for one audience, then your perspective is valid. When you treat yuri as a piece of art of any form wethers its deep emotions, beautiful art stlye in-depth characters etc, gender or sexuality shouldn't disqualify you from having an opinion. From what I’ve seen, the people on this site are generally open-minded and understanding. I hope that mindset continues to grow. :)

Class-S and sisterhood are probably my favorite tropes in yuri. They are unique, I like the stablished dynamics and aesthetics.
Although I differ a little, even if class-s did not have subtly queerness, it would still be good. I don’t think yuri needs to be queer or realistic to be signifcative or valid.

Honestly, I think Class S is inherently queer. It is, by definition, two girls establishing an intimate relationship beyond the bounds of traditional heteropatriarchy. (Patriarchy allowed it because it was assumed they would "grow out" of it, but the very existence of Class S demonstrates the possibility of alternate forms of living.) So I can't really imagine a Class S dynamic that's not queer.

This chapter was awesome and I'm relieved to learn I was not the only one who found the ribbon tying kind of erotic.

Also, I'm happy to report I managed to resist the temptation to read what Temp said or to reply to anybody with a Take about Class S. Is this what being normal feels like?

But I must also contradict myself and say that it stresses me that one can never criticize yuri because suddenly you are a man, you are lesbophobic, have never read yuri and likes shojo/bl, are ignorant about the history of the genre, I am reading in bad faith, I didn’t understand the plot, want to restrict lesbian expression,etc. sometimes it borders anti-intellectualism.

Yeah, I think anti-intellectualism is a pretty big issue on a lot of online discussion forums. It's hardly a new issue, or one that's likely to vanish in the years to come, but it's still quite off-putting to see just how hostile people are to engaging with unfamiliar or challenging ideas. It's one thing to say, "I don't have the energy to fully address this point, I can't quite understand what you're trying to convey, or I'm just here for the jokes and vibes". But people often go on the offensive and try to argue how not engaging with someone's opinions is actually a very progressive or heroic thing to do. They achieve this by trying to create a caricature of the kind of person who isn't worth arguing with, accuse another poster of embodying this archetype, and thus get to both make nasty accusations and absolve themselves of justifying them. A common variant of this is accusing anyone who's penned a long post of having used A.I., which carries the assumption that "No real person would spend this much time thinking and writing about art. Rather than trying to acknowledge that you've put the effort in to make a point, I believe that the volume or density of your views are symptomatic of your inauthenticity". Therefore, the most honest way to say something becomes to say almost nothing at all! What does this convey about our attitude toward discussion? Anti-intellectualism is precisely how I'd describe it.

If it's not annoying enough when directed at a commenter, this practice becomes even worse when directed at the interpretation of an artistic work. It's not enough to say, "I dislike this piece, I think it was badly executed, I don't quite agree with the author's treatment of this idea" etc. People feel the need to dismiss entire genres and ideas out of pocket, asking not, "How has the author approached this?", but "Should this have been approached at all?". They come up with this notion of what yuri ought to be, which necessarily implies dynamics of inclusion and exclusion, and rather than trying to engage with a particular yuri work, they demand that the work should engage with them, cater to them, fulfil their preconceived notions of what yuri ought to be, claiming that some yuri works are more yuri than others- as if this was all quantifiable. And this obsession with essence and proof necessarily leads people to make some pretty sweeping statements- "This work has too much sex for me, so it must have been written by a man", "This work didn't end with the couple kissing, so can we really call it yuri?", "This work deals with incest/lolicon/noncon themes, so the author is a porn-brained pervert creating masturbatory material with no meaningful message", "This work doesn't fit the direction I thought the author would take, so it must have been axed/censored/edited"- these are just some of the statements I've seen made on forums. The Death of the Author has been succeeded by the Necromancy of the Author, as people consistently try to conjure up hypothetical figures, whether authors or commenters, who are evil or stupid or helpless enough to make the act of dismissing them not a matter of personal taste, but one of moral imperative.

When you treat yuri as a piece of art of any form wethers its deep emotions, beautiful art stlye in-depth characters etc, gender or sexuality shouldn't disqualify you from having an opinion. From what I’ve seen, the people on this site are generally open-minded and understanding. I hope that mindset continues to grow. :)

Also agree with this point. When discussions are had, they should focus upon opinions and not upon identities. I think it should be possible to critique a way of thinking and speaking without making assumptions about a person's character or background or education or nationality, which is something that is all too often done as a way of discrediting arguments. Wherever you come from, it's possible to learn and appreciate different cultures if you have the right attitude and put in the effort to see culture as a fluid, complex and mutifaceted thing rather than a monolith. But in order to do this, people must be willing to productively face difference rather than trying to homogenize the world. They must both be open to new ideas and understanding of older ones in their unique contexts.

To tie all this back to the manga, I think that is what Class S offers to authors and readers as a genre- a fascinating blend of tradition and expression, a complex of roles that can certainly turn into restrictive and suffocating labels, but also be reinterpreted as structures that offer women directions and purpose in life. The most open of social situations can still become suffocating and grueling thanks to unspoken assumptions and unexpressed feelings, as demonstrated by Kasumi's struggles and guilt. And conversely the most binding and strict of roles can contain the potential for creativity and artistry, as we see in Haruyo's approach to playing the onee-sama. These paradoxes defy simple binaries and demonstrate the multiplicity of ways there exist to portray queerness itself- nostalgia, family, secrecy and intrigue, all of which are not merely relics of the queer past rendered obsolete in the modern age, but endlessly fertile fields of gender/sexuality expression that function almost as a sophisticated system unto themselves- not always the system of a curriculum, but often the system of a game, which derives its enjoyment precisely from the space around the rules.

I, for one, think Hanayo looks better with short hair. It's very cute and has a 30s style air to it.

As for the discussion, while I agree that dismissing Class S feels ignorant, it's equally, if not more ignorant to underplay the importance of "realistic" yuri. It comes off as you viewing the experience of those real Japanese lesbians as inauthentic and the "Western" LGBT+ values they hold as a foregin inveding force. Many lesbian and sapphic mangaka talk about LGBT+ issues and rights and the treatment of lesbianism by Japanese society. Don't throw them under the bus.

Oh, My God. No one dismissed anything. No one said all these supposedly judgemental things. Y'all are arguing with ghosts. This manga was getting pretty much nothing but praise. Nothing wrong with heady discussions. But when it's drench in this many baseless accusations to nobody and dripping in self importance it quickly becomes tedious.
Edit: I totally agree with you ninryu, including about the short hair.

last edited at Aug 6, 2025 3:55AM

Clearly the solution to everything is more yuri. The more different types of stories are told, they more people can find things they prefer.

Clearly the solution to everything is more yuri. The more different types of stories are told, they more people can find things they prefer.

Amen to that.

I, for one, think Hanayo looks better with short hair. It's very cute and has a 30s style air to it.

I completely agree.

Oh, My God. No one dismissed anything. No one said all these supposedly judgemental things. Y'all are arguing with ghosts. This manga was getting pretty much nothing but praise. Nothing wrong with heady discussions. But when it's drench in this many baseless accusations to nobody and dripping in self importance it quickly becomes tedious.
Edit: I totally agree with you ninryu, including about the short hair.

I know this might sound random and possibly out of place, but I feel that Temp simply wanted to express their thoughts openly about the whole concept of S-class yuri, along with some related topics, in their essay. They probably feel content with what they said now, especially since it seems like they've asked to have their account deleted. I noticed this when I tried to click on their username to read their essay on this forum, and I also came across a comment from them on another forum requesting to delete their account. :)

I know this might sound random and possibly out of place, but I feel that Temp simply wanted to express their thoughts openly about the whole concept of S-class yuri, along with some related topics, in their essay. They probably feel content with what they said now, especially since it seems like they've asked to have their account deleted. I noticed this when I tried to click on their username to read their essay on this forum, and I also came across a comment from them on another forum requesting to delete their account. :)

Well, they chose to do it in a weird accusatory way. I hope my comments had nothing to do with them deleting because I don't want that. But you can't just show up, start acting all superior and arrogant. Aggressively push back against anyone who dares disagree, including a ton of straw men and insults. Then get surprised when people start getting frustrated.

I know this might sound random and possibly out of place, but I feel that Temp simply wanted to express their thoughts openly about the whole concept of S-class yuri, along with some related topics, in their essay. They probably feel content with what they said now, especially since it seems like they've asked to have their account deleted. I noticed this when I tried to click on their username to read their essay on this forum, and I also came across a comment from them on another forum requesting to delete their account. :)

Well, they chose to do it in a weird accusatory way. I hope my comments had nothing to do with them deleting because I don't want that. But you can't just show up, start acting all superior and arrogant. Aggressively push back against anyone who dares disagree, including a ton of straw men and insults. Then get surprised when people start getting frustrated.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, the way they approached it definitely came off as confrontational. I doubt your comments were the reason they deleted, though.

I know this might sound random and possibly out of place, but I feel that Temp simply wanted to express their thoughts openly about the whole concept of S-class yuri, along with some related topics, in their essay. They probably feel content with what they said now, especially since it seems like they've asked to have their account deleted. I noticed this when I tried to click on their username to read their essay on this forum, and I also came across a comment from them on another forum requesting to delete their account. :)

Well, they chose to do it in a weird accusatory way. I hope my comments had nothing to do with them deleting because I don't want that. But you can't just show up, start acting all superior and arrogant. Aggressively push back against anyone who dares disagree, including a ton of straw men and insults. Then get surprised when people start getting frustrated.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, the way they approached it definitely came off as confrontational. I doubt your comments were the reason they deleted, though.

As I mentioned earlier, I think pitching the whole original wall-o-text as primarily an intervention against an amorphous group of “wrong” (Western, aggressively LGBTQ, amateur) critics rather than focusing on the OP’s analytical take on the history of the Class-S genre and its contemporary manifestations, including Dear Flowers, was a rhetorical mistake, which led to a predictable series of pushbacks by commenters and then counterproductive counter-pushback by the OP.

In academia (the discourse of which the OP’s post at least emulated), if you’re going to take on a school of critics, the default strategy is to name names and quote or paraphrase the opponents’ specific arguments rather than making sweeping characterizations about past and present readers, bloggers, forum commenters, etc.

Ultimately the core of that analytical take made me think about the Class-S genre in new and, to me, interesting ways, and I’m sorry that the OP won’t be around to follow up on their ideas about that genre. (For instance, I would have welcomed hearing Temp’s take on my favorite hot-mess Class-S yuri series, Strawberry Panic! lol)

If they only wanted to talk about the importance of Class S they shouldn't have to attack "realistic yuri", that was a weird take, and them getting defensive and doubling down certainly doesn't make them look good. If you make a hot take you should be ready to a push back and criticism, otherwise it's better to mention it at all.

I am a nuanced and sophisticated academic.

Flees at minor criticism.

As I mentioned earlier, I think pitching the whole original wall-o-text as primarily an intervention against an amorphous group of “wrong” (Western, aggressively LGBTQ, amateur) critics rather than focusing on the OP’s analytical take on the history of the Class-S genre and its contemporary manifestations, including Dear Flowers, was a rhetorical mistake, which led to a predictable series of pushbacks by commenters and then counterproductive counter-pushback by the OP.

Basically. Like I agree with a lot of their points but opening their essay by framing the 'vulgar realist' as a mostly western chauvinism phenomenon and then writing

I think it should be possible to critique a way of thinking and speaking without making assumptions about a person's character or background or education or nationality, which is something that is all too often done as a way of discrediting arguments.

is just a little bit rich.

I'd pick a fight over it but they're not here anymore, so I guess I'll spare everyone the wall of text.

I liked their touching session c: Do it again.

This is my drug

The author is cooking something crazy. Thank you Noighd for having incredible taste in yuri and translating them with such care!!

They're so cute and fluffy, I hope this has a happy ending. I get a bit of an ominous vibe of a storm approaching but I might be imagining it.

God they are so fucking gay, jesus

Also did you fucks seriously bully temp off here? They were my favourite poster on this site, I loved reading their long winded lit theory posts, seriously. One of the only of people I've ever seen comment around here who actually had something valuable to say. I'm sad now.

last edited at Aug 12, 2025 7:53AM