Forum › Kanojo ni Naritai Kimi to Boku discussion

45b4e36d555ca184502130f8249354c2--flcl-furi-kuri2
joined Jul 19, 2018

As a trans woman, this ending feels unsatisfying.
They didn't need to make her so much bigger than the cis girls, Japanese people are not that disportional....
Welp, another one to not recommend.
Go read Wondering Son if you want a good transgender story, hell Girl meets Girl is leaps and bounds better.....

After reading all that your primary complaint is that Akira, who is physically male, happens to be taller than her biologically female counterparts?

Although perhaps being a westerner has skewed your perspective, just because Asians tend to be smaller in stature than Caucasians doesn't mean that there is no physical sexual dimorphism in Asian people when it comes to height. In fact if you look at the stature ratio between males and females in Japan vs the United States they are either exactly the same or there is a slightly greater difference in height between men and women in Japan depending on which study you look at.

Not that this was some great work of literature or anything, but I think people are just completely missing the point with this story. For starters Akira is not the main character. Secondly, this was not a romance manga so much as it was a preachy coming of age story for various lgbt minorities.

Akira's story arc was learning to be comfortable with who she is. In the end we see she is happily single and no longer defining herself by what others think. She has made piece with her inner femininity and has a job that reflects that. She has outgrown her codependent tendencies and the need to have others reaffirm her self image. She is simply a happy single girl doing what she loves.

Not surprised. It was terrible up until the very end. Dunno why I kept reading.

As the old saying goes, you are what you eat.

Trans women aren't male

And your point is? At what point did I ever suggest Akira's gender was not female? Notice the pronouns I used were "her" and "she" not "him" and "he." Are you referring to my statement about Akira being biologically male? Are you perhaps confusing the difference between "gender" and "sex?" The terms are similar but not the same. Gender is a psychological state of being, sex is a physical and biological state of being. Akira is physically male, but her gender is female.

last edited at Aug 18, 2020 8:11PM

けやき坂46
Ektos9hxgae-ztl
joined Jan 30, 2019

As a trans woman, this ending feels unsatisfying.
They didn't need to make her so much bigger than the cis girls, Japanese people are not that disportional....
Welp, another one to not recommend.
Go read Wondering Son if you want a good transgender story, hell Girl meets Girl is leaps and bounds better.....

After reading all that your primary complaint is that Akira, who is physically male, happens to be taller than her biologically female counterparts?

Although perhaps being a westerner has skewed your perspective, just because Asians tend to be smaller in stature than Caucasians doesn't mean that there is no physical sexual dimorphism in Asian people when it comes to height. In fact if you look at the stature ratio between males and females in Japan vs the United States they are either exactly the same or there is a slightly greater difference in height between men and women in Japan depending on which study you look at.

Not that this was some great work of literature or anything, but I think people are just completely missing the point with this story. For starters Akira is not the main character. Secondly, this was not a romance manga so much as it was a preachy coming of age story for various lgbt minorities.

Akira's story arc was learning to be comfortable with who she is. In the end we see she is happily single and no longer defining herself by what others think. She has made piece with her inner femininity and has a job that reflects that. She has outgrown her codependent tendencies and the need to have others reaffirm her self image. She is simply a happy single girl doing what she loves.

Not surprised. It was terrible up until the very end. Dunno why I kept reading.

As the old saying goes, you are what you eat.

Trans women aren't male

And your point is? At what point did I ever suggest Akira's gender was not female? Notice the pronouns I used were "her" and "she" not "him" and "he." Are you referring to my statement about Akira being biologically male? Are you perhaps confusing the difference between "gender" and "sex?" The terms are similar but not the same. Gender is a psychological state of being, sex is a physical and biological state of being. Akira is physically male, but her gender is female.

As a trans man, I agree. Thinking I'm perfectly, biologically male would be dangerous for my health even. I am trans precisely because my sex is female.

Anyway, this manga felt like a waste of time.

joined Feb 23, 2020

Look. Akira DID went through male puberty, so she would be taller than your average cis woman(HRT does make you shorter, but not alot. Also, we don't know if Akira did do HRT.). And as a trans woman, that is a reality, I'm taller than most cis women, it happens, so I don't see a issue with that.

joined Oct 27, 2018

Look. Akira DID went through male puberty, so she would be taller than your average cis woman(HRT does make you shorter, but not alot. Also, we don't know if Akira did do HRT.). And as a trans woman, that is a reality, I'm taller than most cis women, it happens, so I don't see a issue with that.

I actually had no issue with her height either, although I should probably point out I'm pretty short myself.

joined Oct 27, 2018

I decided to delete some of my previous comments. In no way am I ceding to essentialist notions, but I think it's best to try and tone down that kind of drama.

Nyuh
joined Mar 26, 2018

that het ending was awful. what the heck

joined Sep 13, 2018

I mean yeah, from the get go I think expecting more focus on Akira when Hime is clearly the main character in this is setting yourself up for disappointment, even if I wish there was a greater focus on her.

Also: Don't call a trans women 'physically male', you're still calling them male. Taking issue with trans women feeling uncomfortable with how a cishet mangaka depicts a trans woman is not a good position to take lmao, even if you're trans yourself. That's all I'm saying on the matter because I agree with KawaiiSuika on it being best to avoid drama even I think 'physically male/female' is pretty useless for a variety of reasons.

Ultimately I'm just kinda disappointed that the whole plot of 'Girl who doesn't know about her identity, meets a lot of LGBTQ characters (who get basically sidelined for Her growth) and her growth consists of having issues with being a woman and maybe being gay but ultimately just being a cishet feminine woman with a typical job and a husband and kid'. (For clarity: I also acknowledge the notion that she could be a bi woman in a relationship with a man but it 100% does not seem like that's the conclusion the mangaka took and I feel its useless to pretend we got that if anything)

Like... I dunno, it just feels like very disappointing bait, especially for what it could've been..

Logocion
joined Jan 30, 2013

Welp. I guess I'm going to just from now on not read Mangas with trans folk until someone says actual good stuff happens in the ending. I'll just be reading lgbt comics lol

joined Oct 27, 2018

I mean yeah, from the get go I think expecting more focus on Akira when Hime is clearly the main character in this is setting yourself up for disappointment, even if I wish there was a greater focus on her.

I still think the way Akira was handled is perfectly open for criticism. It's true she's not the main character, but she shares space with Hime on the cover, when it wasn't focused on Hime it was usually focused on her. She was clearly supposed to be important and unfortunately that wasn't really reflected in the ending.

Like... I dunno, it just feels like very disappointing bait, especially for what it could've been..

Agreed

1461894977557
joined Jun 12, 2015

Nice realistic ending. Why the hate?

joined Sep 13, 2018

I still think the way Akira was handled is perfectly open for criticism. It's true she's not the main character, but she shares space with Hime on the cover, when it wasn't focused on Hime it was usually focused on her. She was clearly supposed to be important and unfortunately that wasn't really reflected in the ending.

Oh yeah, I definitely wouldn't say its not without criticism and like every other lgbtq character show she gets sidelined to hell (especially given the more prominent focus on her), I guess I just feel like it was clear the heavier focus was on Hime and given how it ended, the mangaka not bothering at all on Akira only makes sense to me lmao.

Nice realistic ending. Why the hate?

Cause it's a story that set itself out as 'girl with confusion on her identity has a crush on her trans best friend' and it ends with basically every lgbtq character shown being sidelined and the ending being the main girl ending up in a really heterosexual and heternormative relationship with a kinda boring guy that I don't think many of us cared about.

Honestly it doesn't even feel realistic, the last we saw of Hime's future husband, she said their date was nice and appreciated that he had a nice day with her too, and then he moved out of the prefecture and she mostly hung out with his sister with no mention of like, continuing to date him. Meanwhile there was 40+ chapters of her not really sure where she felt with her crush on Akira, confusion on her own sexuality and gender stuff only for it to just end up with her being a gender-conforming cishet woman. Like, I guess that's realistic, not everyone who questions their identity ends up LGBTQ, but so is 'And she figures out she's gay and dates Akira' (Which, honestly I feel is way more realistic than their 'eh yeah I'm just gonna deal with this weird crush I have and never bother to explore what it could mean further')..

runrin Uploader
Runrin-icon-wrd-2
joined Feb 9, 2019

this and Run Away With Me, Girl which also just ended with a time skip both have 2030+ japan still not having legal gay marriage. wtf?

joined Apr 26, 2016

So Hime someone who has shown revulsion to men is married to one (maybe she's bi but they didn't say that so no way to know) and Akira not only is single but really a blank slate. Like she is a stylist (real stereotype breaking there) anything else?

20201012_162131~2
joined Jul 15, 2020

Let's look at the silver lining, guys.

Almost all of us can bond over our disappointment towards this train wreck.

American_virgin
joined May 25, 2014

It's been a while. I just re-read it again so I could give a thorough critique.

I think that this story could've been so much better. I think there was a lot of wasted potential to discuss various queer issues. I felt that a lot of the queer plot points seemed to primarily served to be fodder to spur speeches full of platitudes, especially by the straight characters. It felt like a "very special" episode in parts. Basically is was too simple and generic of a story (a girl falls for a endlessly selfless and understanding boy who is helpful to her when she's going through a difficult point in her life) for the (queer) themes it seemed like it wanted to explore.

It's not horrible, but it didn't live up to its promise.

DR2 Hajime Hinata
Phoenix%20picture
joined Jul 20, 2016

I liked the ending, I'm a bit disappointed other people didn't like it as well :(

For starters, if you're unhappy that Hime didn't end up with Akira (basically what would've been the yuri ending) it was quite obvious they wouldn't get together from the start. She fell in love with her before she revealed to her she was trans, Hime fell in love with her because she thought she was a boy. We shouldn't try to shame Hime for having a sexual preference (even if it is straight, since we all know how that goes). She clearly struggled with accepting the fact that Akira is trans. Possibly because she knew her before she decided to change the way she dressed and that Akira didn't look like a cis girl (not that that's a bad thing, just saying it probably made it harder for Hime to accept her, weird brain things). Also Akira is straight. Hime and Akira would never work out. Even if Hime became trans it wouldn't be a good ending because she would've changed herself for Akira and not for herself.

Basically, this story was all about everyone else's happiness and how it can differ from one another. Don't get me wrong I love my yuri manga and normally shun away manga that isn't yuri, but this one was just different. If you're unhappy with the ending well too bad because that's their happiness and not yours.

I also thought Hime's child with Hiro was cute to be honest, we must protect Makoto at all costs.

EDIT: I also forgot, Sasaki sensei is the best sensei and you can't tell me otherwise. If you didn't like the manga at least like Sasaki sensei.

last edited at Aug 29, 2020 1:59AM

2SpiritCherokeePrincess
Nakoruru
joined Jun 20, 2020

^ I mostly agree, but I think Hime is Bisexual. She may have liked Akira before, but her feelings developed into love years later, after she knew Akira was a girl. Hime seemed to quickly accept her as a girl. Later, her conscious reason for cross-dressing was to support Akira, but subconsciously she was trying to become a possible romantic partner by acting like a boy. It's just a shame that so many people here hate bisexuals--and asexuals too judging by some posts. (They called him an alien!?)

last edited at Aug 29, 2020 3:03AM

DR2 Hajime Hinata
Phoenix%20picture
joined Jul 20, 2016

Later, her conscious reason for cross-dressing was to support Akira, but subconsciously she was trying to become a possible romantic partner by acting like a boy.

Exactly this. I forgot to write this in my original post but yes, part of the reason Hime was trying to dress up as a boy was to get Akira to maybe have feelings for her as well. Which is why even if Hime became trans and got with Akira it wouldn't be the "true" happy ending. Might even be a bit melancholic if you think of it as changing yourself just for someone to like you back and realizing you are not who you want to be.

So Akira is straight and Hime becoming trans wouldn't be "true", the Hime x Akira ship was doomed from the start. But that is the beauty of reality, I suppose. I'm just happy they all got their happy ending.

67351033_10220293459155029_8283322322757091328_n
joined Jul 22, 2015

Welp, I just read it. It seemed to be going well until literally the last few chapters where the author seemed to throw out everything they had developed between characters for the whole fucking series. While it was written to look like a happy end, it was a very bad end indeed which featured next to no romantic resolution for anything. All it did was give us a lesbian marriage to a side character and someone we know nothing about and fucking shoehorning fucking het marriage between two characters who were fake dating and had no chemistry between each other whatsoever. All in all, I'm very disappointing with this manga.

As a trans woman, I also want to say that I'm glad we had the inclusion of a diverse cast of characters - a cisgender lesbian, a trans woman, a periodically-crossdressing cis pansexual woman, a periodically-crossdressing cis man, and an asexual man. However I feel like the ending completely threw away our co-main character, Akira the trans woman, as soon as she transcended the awkward start of transition.

W
joined Jun 5, 2015

gwennie-chan posted:

co-main character

I'm sorry, but Akira was never main character. She was always only supporting character to Hime.

67351033_10220293459155029_8283322322757091328_n
joined Jul 22, 2015

gwennie-chan posted:

co-main character

I'm sorry, but Akira was never main character. She was always only supporting character to Hime.

It's rather clear Akira was the deuteragonist, that's why she's on the cover and most of the story follows the interaction between Hime and Akira. How the mangaka brutally just throws her out is hideous and I can't stand it.

Tumblr_pcncujlobx1vjy21go6_250
joined Apr 13, 2014

gwennie-chan posted:

co-main character

I'm sorry, but Akira was never main character. She was always only supporting character to Hime.

It's rather clear Akira was the deuteragonist, that's why she's on the cover and most of the story follows the interaction between Hime and Akira. How the mangaka brutally just throws her out is hideous and I can't stand it.

I think the characters were treated pretty similar in that regard. The manga is more of an aangst-based "this happens, then this happens" coming of age rather than a slice of life. Once the characters have fulfilled their purpose (either it be coming to terms with who they are, their feelings, or their views), they're all usually sidelined. Take the lesbian character for instance. Once she explains her standpoint and her "interesting-thing-about-her-that-stands-out"(from a manga/writer standpoint) she becomes irrelevant. Once Akira's sense of self was worked out and then her relationship turmoil was sorted (I use the term relationship for all types in this scenario [romantic, friendship, self, etc.]) she was backburner-ed. Same with momo and cute-girl. It's pretty common in manga that doesn't have a direct main character (or a large cast) for them to be put on the backburner after their "use" is complete. This being because side characters are usually meant for the main character's growth in writing and when you try and make too many stories around characters at once or keep them all equal in plot-importance, the story can easily get messy or boring. It can be done right obviously, it's just incredibly hard and something that takes a lot of writing to master (I still suck at it and end up having characters mysteriously disappear for a bit after they've used up their "interesting points").

Now I wouldn't say that it's a good thing, but it is a consistent thing in manga and writing in general; despite how easy it may LOOK, it's not easy to keep an equal focus on multiple characters in writing without continuously adding drama or added plot points/individual struggles. If you took out the LGBT aspect and made their individual plot points something random, it would seem like most other multi-focal manga, right? It's a common thing, especially in media with a short-run time.
I 100% understand that we're grasping onto any positive representation we can get (especially with manga in general being pretty bad at repping actual LGBT+ stuff [I love yuri don't get me wrong, but it's sooooo not representative of lesbian stuff as most know and acknowledge] and trans rep in general is horrible especially with other genres/tags like "trap" polluting the system [and the misuse of the term "crossdressing"]) but I don't think it's right to pin this as a horrible manga just because it made mistakes.

In my opinion; it was honestly one of the best representations I've read in manga (which isn't saying much, but still) despite it's storyboarding issues. The consistency with pronouns, the intrapersonal turmoil, and the insightful and open-minded look on things (even outside the LGBT+ theme) was refreshing. It felt less like they were using LGBT+ stuff as a plot point (even though it obviously was) and more that they were actually trying to educate as best they could, which I can appreciate.

@Other people
Also, I'm a very gay woman and het stuff usually isn't my thing but I was kind of hoping she would get with the guy in the end. Not sure why everyone is mad about this. Bisexuals exist. It's not like the plot was super het, half the story was a girl having feelings for another girl. You don't need to get mad when something is not 100% pure yuri. He seemed like a very cool and well-fleshed out character (for how short the manga was) and the fact that people are getting mad that she ended up in a "het" relationship is indicative of their character. Honestly if you're that mad that the character is male then you're no better than the people who get mad when a "straight-seeming" character on a show ends up with a member of the same sex. If you're using lack of rep as an excuse to hate a het relationship then you're just a sad person. If you're using the excuse that it was "out of nowhere" when it obviously wasn't you sound exactly like straight people when they say a gay couple was forced and "came out of nowhere". Chill the fuck out.

Yeaaaaa sorry this is so long, i'm pretty high haha. Also I'm not @ing you directly for the later points Gwennie. Just didn't want to double post. Also I say all of this with no malice or desire to start drama and I respect your opinion and agree with some of what you say. This is all just my opinion and observations.

last edited at Oct 2, 2020 3:53AM

joined Oct 27, 2018

@Other people
Also, I'm a very gay woman and het stuff usually isn't my thing but I was kind of hoping she would get with the guy in the end. Not sure why everyone is mad about this. Bisexuals exist. It's not like the plot was super het, half the story was a girl having feelings for another girl. You don't need to get mad when something is not 100% pure yuri. He seemed like a very cool and well-fleshed out character (for how short the manga was) and the fact that people are getting mad that she ended up in a "het" relationship is indicative of their character. Honestly if you're that mad that the character is male then you're no better than the people who get mad when a "straight-seeming" character on a show ends up with a member of the same sex. If you're using lack of rep as an excuse to hate a het relationship then you're just a sad person. If you're using the excuse that it was "out of nowhere" when it obviously wasn't you sound exactly like straight people when they say a gay couple was forced and "came out of nowhere". Chill the fuck out.

Yeaaaaa sorry this is so long, i'm pretty high haha. Also I'm not @ing you directly for the later points Gwennie. Just didn't want to double post. Also I say all of this with no malice or desire to start drama and I respect your opinion and agree with some of what you say. This is all just my opinion and observations.

Oh, god, can you not with the, "if you didn't like this you are biphobic", stuff? I'm bi as hell and I despised this ending.

2SpiritCherokeePrincess
Nakoruru
joined Jun 20, 2020

@cowyouto: I don't think it's too long. You actually talked about the manga, rather than throwing it under the bus for being less than perfect. How sad that the discussion on Mangadex was more enlightened.

Tragedian%202
joined Oct 1, 2020

This was one of the first manga about trans people that I encountered, so I didn't really see a lot the issues on my first read. The segments that everyone described as preachy, for instance, came off as fairly informative to me, because I wasn't well-educated about the issues at hand. With that being said, I kinda noticed that the actual events and plot weren't anywhere near as elaborate as the poetic musings about gender issues, and I definitely felt like the ending was nuclear-level trash.
Now that I've read it a second time, after having explored various other trans narratives, I can say for sure that this series is a massive disappointment. The one thing it has going for it is that it's very clear in what it wants to express, but the ending pretty much dunks all the buildup into a bin, making it one of the worst works about trans people I've ever read (heck, you could argue that it isn't even about a trans person so much as her cis best friend and her saviour complex). Almost feels like the author is one of those people who go 'The A in LGBTQIA+ actually stands for ally, because look how hard we work to give our oppressed little buddies the spotlight!'

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