Forum › Going Off Course discussion

Happy%20face
joined Oct 12, 2016

Yeah, nothing I'm saying should be taken as invalidating your personal identity, but I also want to note that your characterization of the "inherent" trans experience matches pretty closely to 1960s-1990s discourse on transsexuality. And the rise of transgender terminology in the mid to late 1990s was primarily a response to and rejection of the medicalizing and "passing" - centric emphasis of that earlier discourse. So for a lot of trans folks, the declaration that pre-op and post-op are still important distinctions comes across as both outdated and a willful erasure of their contemporary transgender experiences.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 5:25AM

[commie]%20go!%20princess%20precure%20-%2013%20[51546f94].mkv_snapshot_09.42_[2016.12.19_12.33.57]
joined Dec 10, 2014

M-Ra couldnt be further from the truth in my opinion. Even as a sapphic trans woman who wants to get rid of my junk, to be honest I do find her take pretty offensive. I think saying a trans woman with a penis having sex with a cis woman is inherently heterosexual undermines and invalidates a lot of identities. I do not see a meaningful distinction between that and terfs calling trans women "males" and insisting that it's simply a fact of science. In fact, that some trans women align themselves with terfs is hardly anything new so I honestly shouldn't be as surprised as I am that a trans woman did decide to take a rather transphobic stance.

And if people don't want to see a penis in their lesbian porn there's a great way to avoid that. Tags. A lot of people seem to be under the wildly mistaken impression that if porn with trans women is able to be labeled yuri they simply won't be able to avoid seeing it or they won't know if thats present without reading the manga. Honestly to claim that is simply dishonest. But like also its not like there's a lot of that to begin with? We're kind of a rarity and even futa getting put on this site is rare in the extreme.

Also if you would classify a trans woman on HRT as futanari like I don't even know what to say it's the most blatantly absurd thing I've heard in a long time.

last edited at Apr 19, 2017 8:13PM

Bleach_589___giselle_gewelle_alux-d7quz%20(1)
joined Dec 2, 2014

Yeah, so gender is a tricky beast, and nothing I'm saying should be taken as invalidating your personal relationship with the bastard, but I also want to note that your characterization of the "inherent" trans experience matches pretty closely to 1960s-1990s discourse on transsexuality. And the rise of transgender terminology in the mid to late 1990s was primarily a response to and rejection of the medicalizing and "passing" - centric emphasis of that earlier discourse. So for a lot of trans folks, the declaration that pre-op and post-op are still important distinctions comes across as both outdated and a willful erasure of their contemporary transgender experiences.

So your pretty much argueing with the arguments of marxists, people who follow an ideology that had its opportunity to shine during the entire 20th century and proved to be an utter failure whenever it was implemented? Or post-modernism, a school of thought that is in itself utterly flawed as it is a simple mean to deny realities and social under the facade of intellectualism without giving giving any proper argumentation for their ideas and that fails in going its way to the consequent end of absolute nihilism, the acceptance of the fact that every morality, ideology and philosophy is in itself nothing but subjective and that an rational person should simply follow the ideas that prove to work best, which would mean the pragmatic synthesis of conservatism and progressivism?

Your argumentation seems to ignore the reality of life of most transgendered people, for whom passing and the medicalization as well as operation to get the typical characteristics of the gender they identify as is the most effective means to fight the psychological damaging symptoms of their gender dysphoria, not because of social pressure but their own quality of life, to live with a better connection between their sense of self and their body? Personally, I would say that the discourse on transsexuality in the past was by far more constructive and connected to the real problem of gender dysphoria than modern discussion, that revolve outside of the hard scientific fields more around ideas like that penises and vaginas don't exist, but are some evil fantasy constructs made up by some evil conspiracy of men.

Bleach_589___giselle_gewelle_alux-d7quz%20(1)
joined Dec 2, 2014

M-Ra couldnt be further from the truth in my opinion.

The terms Opinion and Truth should only be used exclusive from each other. Whenever it comes to opinions, there is no truth.

Even as a sapphic trans woman who wants to get rid of my junk, to be honest I do find her take pretty offensive. I think saying a trans woman with a penis having sex with a cis woman is inherently heterosexual undermines and invalidates a lot of identities. I do not see a meaningful distinction between that and terfs calling trans women "males" and insisting that it's simply a fact of science. In fact, that some trans women align themselves with terfs is hardly anything new so I honestly shouldn't be as surprised as I am that a trans woman did decide to take a rather transphobic stance.

At first, please don't assume my political stance as I would consider myself far away from terms by virtue of being not a feminist but an egalitarian.

Second, in terms of erotic or pornographic art, no there is no way the explicit sexual depiction of a person with a person with a apparent male body with a person with a apparent female body could be considered lesbianism. The emotional part, yeah, where it is about the emotions a woman has for another woman, but when it comes to purely physical depictions? I would say even if it get tagged lesbian or yuri, there should be still a het warning, as, what is visible, is the depiction of a heterosexual intercourse. A visibly male body has sex with a visibly female body, although I don't can't really see a context where a lesbian would do something like that. And I would argue against the defamation of being transphobic, but my identity got so much overtaken by ideologues that I absolutely don't know whats transphobic and what not. Is it transphobic if I say that I consider myself not truly woman until I get the operation and refuse sexual relationships during this times, as these would make me feel uncomfortable as I'm sexually a lesbian? Is it transphobic to want simply to be a girl? Is it transphobic that I don't acknowledge all those Transtrenders from Tumblr? Is my mother who accepted me as who I am transphobic because she refers to me still with male pronouns? Am I transphobic because I am currently okay with this, as I'm grudgingly accept the current reality of my body?

And if people don't want to see a penis in their lesbian porn there's a great way to avoid that. Tags. A lot of people seem to be under the wildly mistaken impression that if porn with trans women is able to be labeled yuri they simply won't be able to avoid seeing it or they won't know if thats present without reading the manga. Honestly to claim that is simply dishonest. But like also its not like there's a lot of that to begin with? We're kind of a rarity and even futa getting put on this site is rare in the extreme.

Also if you would classify a trans woman on HRT as futanari like I don't even know what to say it's the most blatantly absurd thing I've heard in a long time.

Then explain me the actual difference between a Futanari/Hermaphrodit/Shemale and a Transwoman on HRT Pre-OP. Being a Futanari during this time sounds like a small price, at it means at least that everything but the genitalia looks natural.

Tumblr_mpynm4dyml1qjj8e7o1_400
joined May 24, 2013

Rarely comment always lurk signed on to say:

Don't wanna join the dumb rant train because /u/ is complaining about it too.

Futanari the person got tits and most likely has a vagina too. Unless the author has stated this was a transgendered manga. I do not think so.. Futanari not equal to trans-

just because dressing like a (tom)boy like most "yuri" manga means nothing. Enjoy another translation and stop gabbering about ideologies and what you think is politically correct. That's a completely irrelevant to the manga.

EDIT: doujin not manga

last edited at Apr 19, 2017 10:12PM

[commie]%20go!%20princess%20precure%20-%2013%20[51546f94].mkv_snapshot_09.42_[2016.12.19_12.33.57]
joined Dec 10, 2014

The terms Opinion and Truth should only be used exclusive from each other. Whenever it comes to opinions, there is no truth.

the truth is that your opinion is bad

At first, please don't assume my political stance as I would consider myself far away from terms by virtue of being not a feminist but an egalitarian.

i mean terfs arent feminists either so like youd fit right in lol

Second, in terms of erotic or pornographic art, no there is no way the explicit sexual depiction of a person with a person with a apparent male body with a person with a apparent female body could be considered lesbianism. The emotional part, yeah, where it is about the emotions a woman has for another woman, but when it comes to purely physical depictions? I would say even if it get tagged lesbian or yuri, there should be still a het warning, as, what is visible, is the depiction of a heterosexual intercourse. A visibly male body has sex with a visibly female body, although I don't can't really see a context where a lesbian would do something like that.

your insistence that a penis means male is pretty weak and in a thread where people have talked about gender and about biological essentialism you aren't doing any intellectual labor

your argument is lazy

And I would argue against the defamation of being transphobic

the things you said were transphobic and will be called such

but my identity got so much overtaken by ideologues that I absolutely don't know whats transphobic and what not. Is it transphobic if I say that I consider myself not truly woman until I get the operation and refuse sexual relationships during this times, as these would make me feel uncomfortable as I'm sexually a lesbian?

I mean if you don't consider yourself a girl that's fine. it's none of my business how you perceive yourself.

Is it transphobic that I don't acknowledge all those Transtrenders from Tumblr?

this statement by you is actually super fuckin transphobic

insisting other people aren't really trans is policing the identities of others and fucked all to hell

in fact i'd go so far as to say its even worse than the other transphobic shit you said

Is my mother who accepted me as who I am transphobic because she refers to me still with male pronouns?

If you want to be addressed with female pronouns then yes. If you yourself still accept male pronouns then not necessarily. If she refers to other trans women with male pronouns then yes she is transphobic.

Am I transphobic because I am currently okay with this, as I'm grudgingly accept the current reality of my body?

You can be okay with whatever you want /for yourself/. You're dictating that other women's bodies are "male" because of their genitalia and saying the sex they have with other women is heterosexual. That is the fucked up transphobic part.

Then explain me the actual difference between a Futanari/Hermaphrodit/Shemale and a Transwoman on HRT Pre-OP. Being a Futanari during this time sounds like a small price, at it means at least that everything but the genitalia looks natural.

okay so you're just straight up using fucking slurs right now and also don't know anything what you're talking about.

futa porn comes in two types: vagina and dick or balls and dick. The former case would relate to intersex bodies more than trans bodies. The latter case does seem to be a fetishizing of trans women but when you get into the nitty gritty of it a lot of the time the girl has this equipment either cuz she was born with it but developed breasts on her own or she just magically got a dick.

I would say the /idea/ behind both varieties of futa is "well what if a cis girl had a dick." From that angle I'd say futa actually contributes to a real problem of trans women not getting to exist in drawn porn. I'd say /most/ futa doesn't represent trans women either cuz of the whole ambiguous genitalia thing or simply because that runs contrary to the fantasy being crafted. The artists actively don't /want/ to acknowledge the reality of trans women with their art. They want their girls with dicks to be cisgender.

Now, getting a bit personal. I've worked as a camgirl. And what you and most terfs probably wouldn't believe is that the men who came to my camshows to watch? Most of them were straight. In fact I'd wager literally any trans girl who has worked porn or camshows or does photoshoots for a living will confirm for you that our biggest fans are straight men. So, if straight men are interested in us as women. Women with dicks but still women. Then why wouldn't there be lesbian women who feel the same way? And if the men and women who are attracted to us are attracted to us as women, then wouldn't our sex with men be straight and our sex with women be gay? The women who are into us are generally not looking for a guy.

I doubt I can convince you to change your mind and I don't really consider it a big loss. But maybe what I've said will be of benefit to someone else. At least, that's the hope.

007b
joined Jun 12, 2014

WOW! 14 pages of drama about tags and the politics of sexuality. I wanted to compliment on a doujin about a cute trans girl, but I don't know if that's a good idea now...

Edit: Also, did anyone else notice that this forum is called the "Going off Course Discussion." Appropriate!

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 12:09AM

Natsuki
joined Feb 5, 2015

So, if straight men are interested in us as women. Women with dicks but still women. Then why wouldn't there be lesbian women who feel the same way?

Because lesbians ain't looking for dicks, no?

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 12:24AM

[commie]%20go!%20princess%20precure%20-%2013%20[51546f94].mkv_snapshot_09.42_[2016.12.19_12.33.57]
joined Dec 10, 2014

So, if straight men are interested in us as women. Women with dicks but still women. Then why wouldn't there be lesbian women who feel the same way?

Because lesbians ain't looking for dicks, no?

If yer a lesbian whose sexuality is actually only based on genitals, the implication is that you'd be fine with a guy as long as he had a vagina.

I mean if we're policing people's identities... between a woman who loves women regardless of their genitals and a woman who's fine with dating men so long as they have the equipment she likes, I know which one I'd say is the bigger lesbian.

Natsuki
joined Feb 5, 2015

If yer a lesbian whose sexuality is actually only based on genitals, the implication is that you'd be fine with a guy as long as he had a vagina.

uh...no. My sexuality is not based only on the genitals. I want everything and genitals are included. And I don't think any lesbian would want a penis, even if it's a woman who owns the penis, because that is not how lesbian works. A lot already have problem with toys. Maybe you actually mean Pansexuals, not Lesbians.

I mean if we're policing people's identities

Maybe it's you, not we.

Also, personally, I don't get why this is tagged as a trans doujin, it's never presented as such, if anyone look at Pito's futa works it's more than clear that this is just his usual work where some girl having a penis is something normal, not to mention he tagged it himself as a futa doujin.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 12:58AM

[commie]%20go!%20princess%20precure%20-%2013%20[51546f94].mkv_snapshot_09.42_[2016.12.19_12.33.57]
joined Dec 10, 2014

If yer a lesbian whose sexuality is actually only based on genitals, the implication is that you'd be fine with a guy as long as he had a vagina.

uh...no. My sexuality is not based only on the genitals. I want everything and genitals are included. And I don't think any lesbian would want a penis, even if it's a woman who owns the penis, because that is not how lesbian works. A lot already have problem with toys. Maybe you actually mean Pansexuals, not Lesbians.

I'd know some lesbians who'd strongly disagree with you

[commie]%20go!%20princess%20precure%20-%2013%20[51546f94].mkv_snapshot_09.42_[2016.12.19_12.33.57]
joined Dec 10, 2014

I mean if yer a lesbian i'm not gonna say you have to be into dicks but if you say that being a lesbian means you can't be into women who happen to have dicks thats where i take issue

Afterhours37675l
joined Aug 18, 2016

And I don't think any lesbian would want a penis, even if it's a woman who owns the penis, because that is not how lesbian works. A lot already have problem with toys. Maybe you actually mean Pansexuals, not Lesbians.

There's a good post on the Gender Analysis blog that talks about this very issue.

Heather: The purpose of identifying as a lesbian is to give people around me a shorthand introduction to the social aspects of my sexual orientation. When I say I am a lesbian, then my friends won’t try to set me up with guys, men (hopefully) will know that I don’t intend to date them, and people will generally understand that I fit into a demographic of people who are financially and socially marginalized and only recently gained equal marriage rights. These are useful tidbits of information that differentiate me from my heterosexual peers in ways that let them know what to expect and when it might be a good idea to exercise sensitivity. It’s even more useful when I’m looking for romantic and sexual partners. Calling myself bi or pansexual as I’m often expected to do would complicate the usefulness of this shorthand. I am interested in women and only women. An omnisexual identity does not describe me.

About some lesbians dating trans men... there are historical reasons for that, many people we would now call trans men first identified as butch and belonged to the butch community. I might think of it as bi and not lesbian, but it's ultimately their and their partner's business how they identify and not mine.

Otherwise, what Vivian said.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 1:40AM

Nyohohoho
joined Apr 20, 2013

I would close this thread if I could, because once in a while someone will come and say "lol X ain't Y" and we'll have 3 more pages going off course.

Yuu
joined Mar 28, 2015

People full of certainties about the truth are the most dangerous ones.

That's how wars of religions are started.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 2:32AM

Cryssoberyl Uploader
Booklet1-high-pink-experiment
Zefiberyl Translations
joined Apr 11, 2011

Nez, forgive me. Please indulge me this one time. I've held back so many times before.

I am a transwoman - and I was one long before millennials and their labels and inquisitional crusades came along. If there's one thing I hate more than anything else, it's the self-righteous and arrogant attitudes of other transwomen I see shrieking on the internet about "YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT ME OR FACE MY NEVERENDING MORAL SUPERIORITY"! There is no humility or self-awareness about the fact that we ARE inferior to real women - yes, I said it. It's a simple fact. We aspire to be, without any chance at actually achieving, what already exists in born womanhood.

Or at least, some of us aspire to it. It seems to me that these days it is more common to see what I see in this thread, which is people stridently demanding that conceptions of womanhood, femininity, and lesbianism conform to whatever they want it to be to suit their own interests, rather than seeking to emulate and guide themselves by the amazing real women that are all around us. They are, and have always been for me, my heroes and role models. There is no one that should love and respect real women more than a transwoman.

Futanari is disgusting. It is a fetish rooted solely in male artists' erasure of female genitals, female pleasure, and the substitution of their own, which they take for granted is superior to anything women could have or feel. This notion, this act, is shockingly chauvinistic: male artists grafting their own male notions about sexual pleasure, their own sexual experiences and desires, onto the body image of women, and declaring it a complete and obvious improvement, a correction of the vulva's inferiority, the female body's lack. Make no mistake, these are the ideas and motivations in which artists create futanari.

However, even non-futanari ecchi is often guilty of this. Let me ask you, have you ever noticed the extent to which vulvae and vulvate pleasure are dismissed, downplayed, and minimized in anime and manga erotic art? Start looking for it, and you'll definitely notice it. One aspect of this is the censorship of Japan's legal system. Incidentally, said censorship in my view is directly, if only partially, responsible for the outpouring of bizarre fetishes Japan's pornography has gestated over the years; if Japan could just look at women's genitals in peace who knows what we might've been spared from.

But I digress. It is in fact simply a common mindset to glorify the penis and dismiss the vulva. Again, I ask you: when was the last time you read a work that dwelled on vulvae and the pleasure potential of them in the same drawn-out, detailed, and worshipful way that futanari does with its beloved penis? I challenge you to think of some.

Anyone who defends futanari is participating in this erasure and dismissal of female pleasure. As I said, many times I've been tempted to give it the denunciation that it deserves, but I've held my tongue, both because I knew what I would say would be divisive, and because I knew I wouldn't be able to say it well. However, I hope I have managed to convey some of what I have felt for many years, which is that it is a blight.

Futanari is not yuri. Not only is it not yuri, it is the very antithesis of yuri, which is a genre - a small and embattled one - that does try, however at times unrealistically or clumsily, to represent and give primacy to the pleasure of women - real women, who have vulvae. Futanari is not trans. In fact, it is the very antithesis of what transwomanhood means to me, which is the celebration and advancement of the interests of the real women I so admire.

VivianGames, you are a toxic individual, the very caricature that our enemies paint of us. As Martian says, YOU are the one attempting to dictate identities here. Learn some humility and appreciation toward what you claim you are, instead of trying to hammer it into your own shape for your own convenience. I don't recognize you as trans, because you aren't trying to be a woman, you're trying to make women into what you demand they be.

There, enough. I've said it at last.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 3:58AM

Happy%20face
joined Oct 12, 2016

Telling other trans women they're shitty compared to "real" women, particularly telling that to women on this site who have already been super open about their struggles with self-loathing from internalized transphobia, is both vicious and super boring. I wish you could have contented yourself with just critiquing Futa, albeit a terf's critique of futa, and left out the tedious judgment of trans women for not hating themselves enough. Ugh, this was a bad call Cryssoberyl.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 5:13AM

Avatar_87668a69de8b_128
joined Oct 3, 2014

Prefacing by saying I am by and large a cis woman.

Trans women are not "inferior" to "real" women. Doesn't matter if you're talking about pre-op, post-op, hrt, no hrt. A trans woman can feel individually inferior to an ideal of women that she holds, but that doesn't objectively equate to a blanket statement of inferiority of trans women at large. At most you can say at some point many or most people perceived trans women as "inferior" to "real" women, with perhaps varying degrees of "inferiority" based on the status of their genitals and hormones.

And I think that perception is changing. I wouldn't call it moral superiority, at least not from where I stand. I am simply glad for the change. Femininity and womanhood are not static universal inherent objective concepts. You can claim they are and build your argument from there, but many people (myself included) do not see it that way. I would leave it at that and not try to invalidate the lived experiences of any trans women from here and into the future.

Edit: Also I appreciate this thread. Maybe it's just me. I'm sorry people on multiple sides felt or were individually antagonized, but still I want to thank the people who wrote thoughtfully and Nezchan for not shutting that down.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 6:49AM

[commie]%20go!%20princess%20precure%20-%2013%20[51546f94].mkv_snapshot_09.42_[2016.12.19_12.33.57]
joined Dec 10, 2014

I'm not inferior to cis women. Never have been never will be. I truly pity you Cryssoberyl. I hope one day you learn to hate yourself and other trans women even a little bit less than you do right now. And Nevri, you saw someone saying trans women are inherently inferior to cis women and agreed with that person so frankly go fuck yourself.

Yuu
joined Mar 28, 2015

Gender studies is a field in itself that people much smarter than us have have been pondering for decades. And they don't even all agree on everything.

You will not find the truth about femininity in a thread on Dynasty. And I doubt any of you holds that truth.

You hold your truth, built from experience and personal feelings. Trying to frame other people into that truth is akin to religious fanaticism.

Saki.-.the.player.full.1418900
joined Mar 21, 2015

Lain posted:

Also, a faceless woman paying for sex with an anime character, wtf?

Because faceless woman can't have sex with anime character in doujin. We need to gather and protect the rights of faceless women!

We get it, you like faceless trash and think it's "good" just because of that.
It doesn't change the fact that this doujin is garbage as a derivative work and what you like will never be part of the source material.
But I doubt you care, you're probably not even a fan of it and think it's ok to insult things you don't care about.

Oh sorry, i was more surprise a doujin when a female character from a serie had sex with a faceless woman.
We need a tag like ''sex with original character'' for the rares cases

100% Agreed, Dynasty may be ok with faceless shit but at least tag it so that people don't get forced to see it.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 7:53AM

W
joined Jun 5, 2015

nyanya posted:

Lain posted:

Also, a faceless woman paying for sex with an anime character, wtf?

Because faceless woman can't have sex with anime character in doujin. We need to gather and protect the rights of faceless women!

We get it, you like faceless trash and think it's "good" just because of that.
It doesn't change the fact that this doujin is garbage as a derivative work and what you like will never be part of the source material.

  1. I don't like faceless trash
  2. I don't think faceless trash is inherently better.
  3. Nobody argues or wants it to be part of canon. The definition of doujins is making shit up based on the source material.

We should change this thread name to "Assumptions" since it seems what everyone is doing.

Yelena%20avi
joined Dec 15, 2015

I don't think I'd have said that on this forum one day, but if there was a subscribe button, Cryssoberyl, I think I would hit it.

Getting a head start on Nez, I don't think you should keep digressing like that, because this discussion will eventually be moderated.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 8:03AM

Yuu
joined Mar 28, 2015

I don't think I'd have said that on this forum one day, but if there was a subscribe button, Cryssoberyl, I think I would hit it.

Getting a head start on Nez, I don't think you should keep digressing like that, because this discussion will eventually be moderated.

Your avatar eventually reminds me that I put this as my wallpaper on my PC.

AOTS, even if it's not yuri.

last edited at Apr 20, 2017 8:20AM

[commie]%20go!%20princess%20precure%20-%2013%20[51546f94].mkv_snapshot_09.42_[2016.12.19_12.33.57]
joined Dec 10, 2014

You missed the point Cryssoberyl was making, but since you were doing it since your few last posts, I'm not really surprised.

any point that starts with "trans women are inferior to women" is a bad point you stain on humanity

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