No, I know Citrus is low key trash, I just think (in my opinion) that LL is straight up high key trash, and worse, it's really boring. I think you're in denial because you honestly think LL's "plot" is good. There's no real plot tbh. They get together early on, and everything that happens after is legit "Donut, are you sure tho"

THIS. I actually like "Citrus", and enjoy it immensely, but it has some rather glaring flaws, that have been brought up so many times already, there is no point in listing them yet again. My personal favourite is the constant barrage of new characters.
"Lily Love", on the other hand, was simply 'meh'. Could not hold my interest. (I would rather read FF, and that shit absolutely enrages me.)

last edited at Sep 28, 2016 8:24PM

Damn, how can people dare to compare this shit with GF. I can agree that yeah, GF is overrrated, but that doesn't mean it's bad. It's a good story. LL and Citrus are the same trash though. Both have terribly forced drama. Citrus doesn't have characters, just antagonists that are used to break Yuzu and Mei apart and at the end of the day make them closer. The teacher, the gramps, the dad, the girl with the huge eyebrows, Matsuri, the sisters, Harumi's sister , the student council election and now Yuzu's homophobic friends. It repeats the same formula "introduce a character, make them cause some shit, resolve the problem , forget about the character". It was tolerable maybe until chapter 8, then Matsuri and the sisters made me realise that crappy formula. I dropped it many chapters ago, I still find reviews in facebook though.
LL has Ploy, Ploy's ex boyfriend , the father , the trip to another country... anyways, I find both series poorly written and boring for other reasons as well. Objectively speaking, they really lack quality.
However, people are free to like whatever they want. If they love this series or LL, let them be. Yuri series are so limited people sometimes stick to what they have or know. I still remember when I liked Strawberry Panic years ago lol. The only thing that enrages me is the fact that Citrus has a big fandom, while other amazing yuri mangas are totally unknown by most people.

last edited at Oct 2, 2016 3:03AM

Well, that's why I buy the volumes; in the hope that it will encourage publishers to import less well known but better yuri series.

What is this Ghost chapter?

Well, that "ghost chapter" was hilarious anyway. Mei: "I'll cherish it"... yeah right...

Yuri is all the same you guys... literally every story is similiar.

Edit: That's why I'm getting tired of it.

last edited at Oct 2, 2016 2:03PM

melevas posted:

Yuri is all the same you guys... literally every story is similiar.

Edit: That's why I'm getting tired of it.

The biggest issue with yuri is that they recycle the same settings. School girls have been done to death, and while there are occasionally some nice twists within the school girl genre.. it's not enough to make up for the fact that school girl still reigns supreme in yuri. Especially when you consider that a lot of the yuri we get is one-shots.. doing a story in a school setting is quick and easy. It takes more work to make something unique and interesting like sci-fi, or fantasy..

The last few yuri anime released have been school girl as well, but some had good appeals. Yuri Kuma took a fantasy setting about bears, and Akuma No Riddle was about girls trying to kill each other. If people wanna do more school girl yuri, we need more interesting stuff like that. (I'm also not counting valkyrie drive mermaid. i didn't watch it because it looked like a male-gaze fanservice nightmare)

We need more adult yuri, college yuri, fantasy yuri.. anything that isn't just school girls. It's heart-breaking looking at amazing yuri series like Flower Flower, which had gorgeous art and enjoyable characters with an interesting story that was slowly building up.. only for it to never get finished. But we get an endless supply of school girl yuri. School girl series are the mcdonalds of yuri... cheap and easy.. we need more quality food.

School settings are a staple of manga and anime in general, but since yuri is such a small niche we notice it a lot more, I think. Of course for yuri, once you get out of a school environment it becomes really hard to figleaf it as Class S any more.

Not disagreeing on the need for a lot more variety and taking the gay girl characters more seriously though.

The biggest issue with yuri is that they recycle the same settings. School girls have been done to death, and while there are occasionally some nice twists within the school girl genre.. it's not enough to make up for the fact that school girl still reigns supreme in yuri. Especially when you consider that a lot of the yuri we get is one-shots.. doing a story in a school setting is quick and easy. It takes more work to make something unique and interesting like sci-fi, or fantasy..

The last few yuri anime released have been school girl as well, but some had good appeals. Yuri Kuma took a fantasy setting about bears, and Akuma No Riddle was about girls trying to kill each other. If people wanna do more school girl yuri, we need more interesting stuff like that. (I'm also not counting valkyrie drive mermaid. i didn't watch it because it looked like a male-gaze fanservice nightmare)

We need more adult yuri, college yuri, fantasy yuri.. anything that isn't just school girls. It's heart-breaking looking at amazing yuri series like Flower Flower, which had gorgeous art and enjoyable characters with an interesting story that was slowly building up.. only for it to never get finished. But we get an endless supply of school girl yuri. School girl series are the mcdonalds of yuri... cheap and easy.. we need more quality food.

I think the biggest problem with the genre, what makes it rather weak, Is the recycling of the plotlines, and not its settings. Yuri is kinda of a subgenre of romance, BUT yuri sticks to even less of the typical pitholes of romance you can find in the usual Het stuff.

Making them college/adult settings really doesn't change much other than the context, general plotlines remain the same every single time.

Its always tension/drama with a third wheel/love triangle/or someone trying to stop them, and other than that there is the gay drama we've seen over and over and over. Read one yuri, and you've basically read every yuri ever.

that aside, I also don't see a lot of the writing to be any good... but well, thats kinda the case with every manga/anime and not just yuri tho...

last edited at Oct 2, 2016 4:09PM

The biggest issue with yuri is that they recycle the same settings. School girls have been done to death, and while there are occasionally some nice twists within the school girl genre.. it's not enough to make up for the fact that school girl still reigns supreme in yuri. Especially when you consider that a lot of the yuri we get is one-shots.. doing a story in a school setting is quick and easy. It takes more work to make something unique and interesting like sci-fi, or fantasy..

The last few yuri anime released have been school girl as well, but some had good appeals. Yuri Kuma took a fantasy setting about bears, and Akuma No Riddle was about girls trying to kill each other. If people wanna do more school girl yuri, we need more interesting stuff like that. (I'm also not counting valkyrie drive mermaid. i didn't watch it because it looked like a male-gaze fanservice nightmare)

We need more adult yuri, college yuri, fantasy yuri.. anything that isn't just school girls. It's heart-breaking looking at amazing yuri series like Flower Flower, which had gorgeous art and enjoyable characters with an interesting story that was slowly building up.. only for it to never get finished. But we get an endless supply of school girl yuri. School girl series are the mcdonalds of yuri... cheap and easy.. we need more quality food.

I think the biggest problem with the genre, what makes it rather weak, Is the recycling of the plotlines, and not its settings. Yuri is kinda of a subgenre of romance, BUT yuri sticks to even less of the typical pitholes of romance you can find in the usual Het stuff.

Making them college/adult settings really doesn't change much other than the context, general plotlines remain the same every single time.

Its always tension/drama with a third wheel/love triangle/or someone trying to stop them, and other than that there is the gay drama we've seen over and over and over. Read one yuri, and you've basically read every yuri ever.

that aside, I also don't see a lot of the writing to be any good... but well, thats kinda the case with every manga/anime and not just yuri tho...

True but lately the writing has felt even less genuine for yuri stories, that's why Hibike Euphonium blew up so much even though it's bait. If we had more stories like that with fleshed out characters that feel real and relatable narrative, we'd have things to actually look forward to.

that's why Hibike Euphonium blew up so much even though it's bait. If we had more stories like that with fleshed out characters that feel real and relatable narrative, we'd have things to actually look forward to.

Hibike Euphonium is just shitty bait that dicks us over. It doesn't even work as subtext because it leads us to believe that they might get together, but they don't. Subtext is stuff like "Love live" and "A room for two". Subtext is when the characters are very close friends.

last edited at Oct 2, 2016 4:40PM

that's why Hibike Euphonium blew up so much even though it's bait. If we had more stories like that with fleshed out characters that feel real and relatable narrative, we'd have things to actually look forward to.

Hibike Euphonium is just shitty bait that dicks us over. It doesn't even work as subtext because it leads us to believe that they might get together, but they don't. Subtext is stuff like "Love live" and "A room for two". Subtext is when the characters are very close friends.

I never said it's subtext. It's their relationship in general that I'm talking about.

Recycling settings and/or stories is something that is present on every form of media regardless the genre. For me, what makes a story standout is the sum of its parts: the characterization, the dynamics, the setting, the plot, the art/acting/voice acting, animation and more.

Of course it would be nice to have authors willing to take risks and try new things but at the same time I won't hold up against them if they're trying to find a place in an increasingly difficult market, making a manga is a job after all.

That said, I don't know why people continues to rag on Citrus as if Saburota would've lied to them about the nature of this series. From page one it was clear what kind of story was this meant to be and if you don't like it then, why continue to waste effort and getting upset about it now?

I'm also not counting valkyrie drive mermaid. i didn't watch it because it looked like a male-gaze fanservice nightmare

I honestly find pretty contradictory the way you claim to want more yuri that goes beyond the regular norms of the genre when you're so quick to dismiss something that did exactly that simply because it didn't fit your preconceptions about what an innovative yuri had to be.

VDM is not perfect by any means but is pretty earnest on what it is and what it wants to do and does't shy away from the yuri elements, making it a pretty memorable experience whether your liked it or not.

Anyways, the ghost chapter was a great read. I will never get tired of Mei deadpanning all of Yuzu's antics.

is this series still ongoing? Haven't seen any update for ages.

I will never get tired of Mei deadpanning all of Yuzu's antics.

Huh, were completely different people. Mei deadpanning all of Yuzu's antics got old. VERY QUICKLY. But eh, Thats just my Opinion.

last edited at Oct 2, 2016 5:27PM

Well, I'm the kind of people that finds boring to be in company of like minded people all the time. There's need to be disagreement to help me and the people around me to grow and become better. Thus, I can't say no to couples where their members are so different.

Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

From page one it was clear what kind of story was this meant to be

I really liked first chapters and it had a lot potential for good story. Sadly author decided to go with standard drama cliches and series become unreadable to me.

I really liked first chapters and it had a lot potential for good story. Sadly author decided to go with standard drama cliches and series become unreadable to me.

THANK YOU ! THATS WHAT IM SAYING !

Recycling settings and/or stories is something that is present on every form of media regardless the genre. For me, what makes a story standout is the sum of its parts: the characterization, the dynamics, the setting, the plot, the art/acting/voice acting, animation and more.

Of course it would be nice to have authors willing to take risks and try new things but at the same time I won't hold up against them if they're trying to find a place in an increasingly difficult market, making a manga is a job after all.

That said, I don't know why people continues to rag on Citrus as if Saburota would've lied to them about the nature of this series. From page one it was clear what kind of story was this meant to be and if you don't like it then, why continue to waste effort and getting upset about it now?

I'm also not counting valkyrie drive mermaid. i didn't watch it because it looked like a male-gaze fanservice nightmare

I honestly find pretty contradictory the way you claim to want more yuri that goes beyond the regular norms of the genre when you're so quick to dismiss something that did exactly that simply because it didn't fit your preconceptions about what an innovative yuri had to be.

VDM is not perfect by any means but is pretty earnest on what it is and what it wants to do and does't shy away from the yuri elements, making it a pretty memorable experience whether your liked it or not.

Anyways, the ghost chapter was a great read. I will never get tired of Mei deadpanning all of Yuzu's antics.

The only clear thing about Citrus is that it's a yuri manga about pseudo sisters falling in love. The development of their relationship and the story could have taken many ways, but instead fell in cliches and forced drama that repeats the same formula. You can't blame people who had some expectations about Citrus and ended up disappointed. That said, people shouldn't have high expectations when it comes to yuri. Anyways, this is a free space, if people want to complain it's fine.
btw, what kind of yuri mangas do the people who criticise Citrus and LL read? I'm curious about it for some reason.

last edited at Oct 2, 2016 5:41PM

what kind of yuri mangas do the people who criticise Citrus and LL read? I'm curious about it for some reason.

I like
Akuma no riddle, Sakura trick, Octave, LL, Girl friends, Meghan&dani, Husky & Medley and Strawberry Panic.

Scarlet128 posted:

btw, what kind of yuri mangas do the people who criticise Citrus and LL read? I'm curious about it for some reason.

Mangas by Takemiya Jin, Otsu Hiyori and Morishima Akiko.
Also I liked:
I'll Bring You Mille-Feuille!
Amai Nisemono
As Yet I Have No Name
Pure Water Adolescence
Laika, Pavlov, Pochihachikou
Sleeping Beauty's Dream
Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter
Kisses, Sighs, and Cherry-Blossom Pink
Girl Friends
Dandelion Among Lilies
Roommates
Bright and Cheery Amnesia
Octave
The Real Her
First Love
Kase-san
Under One Roof
Pops
Yuri Yuri (ELEGY SYNDROME)
Yuri Yuri
The Flower And The Star
Prism
Free Soul
Love My Life (By same author)
Love Vibes
Even When a Stray Lamb is Weary
I Want to be Your Kind of Girl
The Princess and the Slave
Himitsu, Hitotsu
Morishita and Arai's Romance
First Lend
That Onee-sama Feeling
Cloth Eating Girl
Spring, a Minuet
My Daughter's Girlfriend
She loves me so much it bothers me
I'm A Fool
Girlfriends
My Daughter Has Been Hiding Mother Daughter Incest Porn Books...
(Almost all by) Minase Ruruu
Liar and the Ferris Wheel
Tender Night
My Steady
Nana Yuri
Playing House
Love Strategy
Cigarette Liar
Everyday★Lingerie
Cocytus (At least Cocytus part, didn't read Moratorium yet)
Our Future
Roche Limit
The Female Body
Honey Inferno
Instinct and a Chromosome
Her First Love
Present
Female x Female = Love
And probably forgot a bunch of stuff.

last edited at Oct 2, 2016 6:32PM

Recycling settings and/or stories is something that is present on every form of media regardless the genre. For me, what makes a story standout is the sum of its parts: the characterization, the dynamics, the setting, the plot, the art/acting/voice acting, animation and more.

Of course it would be nice to have authors willing to take risks and try new things but at the same time I won't hold up against them if they're trying to find a place in an increasingly difficult market, making a manga is a job after all.

That said, I don't know why people continues to rag on Citrus as if Saburota would've lied to them about the nature of this series. From page one it was clear what kind of story was this meant to be and if you don't like it then, why continue to waste effort and getting upset about it now?

I'm also not counting valkyrie drive mermaid. i didn't watch it because it looked like a male-gaze fanservice nightmare

I honestly find pretty contradictory the way you claim to want more yuri that goes beyond the regular norms of the genre when you're so quick to dismiss something that did exactly that simply because it didn't fit your preconceptions about what an innovative yuri had to be.

VDM is not perfect by any means but is pretty earnest on what it is and what it wants to do and does't shy away from the yuri elements, making it a pretty memorable experience whether your liked it or not.

Anyways, the ghost chapter was a great read. I will never get tired of Mei deadpanning all of Yuzu's antics.

The only clear thing about Citrus is that it's a yuri manga about pseudo sisters falling in love. The development of their relationship and the story could have taken many ways, but instead fell in cliches and forced drama that repeats the same formula.

It's obvious that recycling will happen, but in other genres theres usually MORE to recycle.

Look at other genres, look at anything tagged as romance anywhere else... You will not only find variety in settings, but most importantly: plot

Try with other genres, a lot of em can be broad enough to have a sense of variety.

Its sad that yuri itself really is a subgenre of romance that really just sticks to a tight by-the-numbers formulas. There is almost no breathing space. We even get the same arcs regurgitated within the same manga as an entire "new arc"... That... is quite telling.

Saying that stuff gets recycled everywhere is simply not much of an argument as a defense.

last edited at Oct 2, 2016 7:02PM

why continue to waste effort and getting upset about it now?

Because people love to hate it? :þ Like the Fairy Tail of Yuri.

Subtext is when the characters are very close friends.

Isn't that what Kumiko and Reina are though? And tbh until season 1 there was no het ending at all and Kumiko seemed to be a bit grossed by Shuichi as a romantic potential too. Plus they literally changed a very important het scene from the manga to make it yuri. The one where Kumiko and Reina were interlocking hands in the end, was originally Kumiko and Shuichi doing this in the manga.
So I think H!E doesn't deserve the hate it gets. And I'm talking about season 1, not sure what will happen in S2 though.

Yuri fandom sometimes can be a bit too much tbh. I agree there are a lot of boring and poorly written yuri out there, but on the other hand if we get a decent or semi-decent one, even in subtext, some people will still find the smallest details to complain about. And give the opportunity for trolls to make fan of it as well. If yuri fans can't be supportive of the yuri, then who will be?
Because some readers just won't be satisfied until they see the girls doing it or blantly saying they are gay. Or even if there a few male characters in the manga/anime besides an all girls setting.

I'm not blaming Japanese for making shows like that, since they have to sell their show and make a living out of it. So they have to adapt it accordingly to be targeted in a bigger audience. Maybe this is a reason why moe "yuri" is more popular than mature ones. Because there is always that thing where the girls are still too young and their love is not "perverted". If you put more mature women doing the things some moe shows do, they would be very clearly gay. But with moe it is more safe and available for a broader audience besides the yuri fandom. (maybe one of the reasons why Yuru Yuri is popular)

So what some fans maybe don't realise is, if shows like H!E made them canon, the audience would probably be limited, and maybe there wouldn't be a seccond season. So we should keep that in mind, and appreciate what we get even if there is not a canon confession or confirmation, instead of wanting everything to be "perfect".