Also, real surprised by all the people on her defending the creepy man. Ugh.

Could be the nicest one guy on earth and people here will still manage to found something to say anyway if it's a W/W/M triangle. Honestly, it's not as creepy as people make it sound and if it was a girl, nobody would have bat an eye.

Also, real surprised by all the people on her defending the creepy man. Ugh.

Could be the nicest one guy on earth and people here will still manage to found something to say anyway if it's a W/W/M triangle. Honestly, it's not as creepy as people make it sound and if it was a girl, nobody would have bat an eye.

^This.

I don't care about harem stories but I would too sign up if Saho was the MC.

After two years, you would expect some kind of reciprocation from the other person. But from all we can gather, Saho never treated him differently than any other customer. Two years and he never got across to her that he was serious about his flirting. After two years he had to keep saying “no, no, I’m being serious” when she would laugh it off, and he never picked up on the hint that she wasn’t interested. I’m not saying that he can’t confess to someone he likes, but he really needs to learn that waitresses that look and smile at him don’t also want to date him. He made this assumption with Tamaki as well.

Yeah it’s unfortunate she didn’t really seem the type to give a hard no, but she did treat him differently. She literally saw him come in and went, “it’s been a week! I haven’t seen you!” And “geez there you go again” with a blush when he flirted with her. Saho is literally giving POSITIVE vibes to Kenji. She clearly likes him as a person. Of course he’s not gonna give up after she reacts that way to seeing him and hearing his comments. Again like a previous commenter put it, it’s two uncorroperative mindsets colliding.

I’d even say it’s also an unfortunate framework as worker and customer mixed with unfortunate mindsets that perpetuated this soft flirting from his side and an “oh you” from her side for two whole years. They both use the boundaries as worker and customer to never do the necessary things to move their relationship forward, like for example having a proper conversation (which Saho and Tamaki do immediately). I think he was too afraid to solidly make a move, and also from her side she’s just vibing to a person being genuinely nice to her and complimenting her without taking it too seriously. I don’t want to condemn either of them. As far as I see it, there’s nothing wrong or harmful with their pre-confession relationship because it’s so low pressure and stakes and literally zero strings attached on either side. (Also someone brought up that it’s bad to persistently hit on service industry workers, and I absolutely agree. But I think in this case the author side stepped this by making it clear there was no problem on that end with the endlessly happy and positive coworkers and boss).

I wouldn’t say he’s creepy for the two years (I do think when he confesses he’s WAY too physical and the way he holds Saho is as if he owns her). The most it’s implies he does is talk with Saho and say “since I get to see Saho, I’d never get tired come coming here” and ordering stuff and sitting down for a while.

“I’m not saying that he can’t confess to someone he likes, but he really needs to learn that waitresses that look and smile at him don’t also want to date him.” I don’t get the impression he assumed Saho would’ve said yes. The way the conversation played out on his part is “I know you’re keeping your distance to not hurt the coworker who likes me, since you’re kind. But I actually genuinely like you.” None of that is him assuming a yes. Again I just have a problem with how physical he is once Tamaki entered the picture. That does give off entitlement vibes. Of course, he’s also being super heteronormative, but that’s also the case for Saho. Since they were both operating through a romantic lens during this manga and pair it with heteronormativity, it makes sense they both thought Tamaki liked Kenji.

No one here is a bad person. Everyone acted reasonably and as well as they could in this social context. Saho genuinely liked Kenji as a person. Kenji was courteous except when he got too physical. Good for Tamaki. Get it girl!

last edited at May 20, 2022 2:53PM

Kenji did nothing wrong. Tamaki immediately rubs salt in the wound and people act like he should be stood there congratulating them.

In my opinion he should have confessed earlier.
Seriously, TWO FUCKING YEARS?
If you like a girl you can't waste 2 years in visits to her workplace to half-ass flirt with her. There's no way she will take you at face value if you do that. Maybe at first, like for a few weeks, she will think that maybe you're for real; but after TWO YEARS of nothing but teasing she will be certain that you're just a joking clown.

That part at the end where he finally gets serious and confesses convincingly? Way too late, dude. Next time don't wait 2 years.

In my opinion he should have confessed earlier.
Seriously, TWO FUCKING YEARS?
If you like a girl you can't waste 2 years in visits to her workplace to half-ass flirt with her. There's no way she will take you at face value if you do that. Maybe at first, like for a few weeks, she will think that maybe you're for real; but after TWO YEARS of nothing but teasing she will be certain that you're just a joking clown.

That part at the end where he finally gets serious and confesses convincingly? Way too late, dude. Next time don't wait 2 years.

100% agreed

As a chubby woman, this makes me happy and hopeful.

(Also someone brought up that it’s bad to persistently hit on service industry workers, and I absolutely agree. But I think in this case the author side stepped this by making it clear there was no problem on that end with the endlessly happy and positive coworkers and boss).

I feel like the attitude of the rest of the stuff is part of the problem though. It really makes it seem as though Saho is just a mascot of sorts, with no one really listening (or asking to hear) her own feelings and acting as though it's inevitable that she will accept him in the end. They certainly mean well, but I do think that they're encouraging the situation and may have played a part in this whole thing dragging on for two whole years.

(I do think when he confesses he’s WAY too physical and the way he holds Saho is as if he owns her).

THIS.
Even overlooking the fact that he's constant flirting is a problem for workers in the industry, the confession was a step way too far.

People are defending him saying that the criticism stems simply from the fact that he's a man, when the reality is that he's acting as if he can decide for Saho, as if she owes him something for his two years of one-sided flirting. Plus, taking into account the cultural context (as a commenter described perfectly earlier), the fact that he is a man probably does play a role in this, and it's possible the situation would have played out differently if he were a woman. (Of course, given Saho's personality, it could very well have gone exactly the same, but at least there wouldn't be all this —unintentional— pressure from her environment).

(Edit: I don't know how I ended up quoting only the stuff you put in parentheses lol)

last edited at May 20, 2022 5:42PM

People are defending him saying that the criticism stems simply from the fact that he's a man, when the reality is that he's acting as if he can decide for Saho, as if she owes him something for his two years of one-sided flirting. Plus, taking into account the cultural context (as a commenter described perfectly earlier), the fact that he is a man probably does play a role in this, and it's possible the situation would have played out differently if he were a woman. (Of course, given Saho's personality, it could very well have gone exactly the same, but at least there wouldn't be all this —unintentional— pressure from her environment).

I feel like you're reading the narrative backwards.
No one's saying he should get a pass on his pushiness "just because he's a man", we're saying that the cultural context explains his behaviour without intrinsically making him a bad person.

He doesn't "act like he can decide for Saho" at all, he just thinks his feelings are reciprocated because she's never been anything but positive towards him even after he's literally said outright that he wants to be her boyfriend. The fact that he's been allowed to flirt with her so explicitly for two years without getting rejected even once has simply convinced him that she is interested just hesitant about his sincerity, and consequently that what he needs to do is be as frank and direct as humanly possible. (Which is why he's so direct during the confession, he thinks that's what she wants him to do.)

Though yes, he's too touchy with her during the confession, but it's not because he's an asshole. He just misread her signals and thought they were closer than they really were.

Furthermore, no one was saying that his behaviour would've been more accepted if he was a woman in-universe, we were referring to the discussion section here on the forums. That if a woman had behaved like that to another woman, a lot of the people who are calling this man creepy would've been much more accepting of the exact same behaviour simply because it was yuri. (Which isn't a strange bias, this is a place to look for yuri after all.)

I feel that comparing the situation in this manga to the real-life situation of "pressure in the workplace for waitresses" is somewhat misguided. Everyone involved seems like good friends and I don't get the impression that the author intended for the possible pressure of being in their workplace environment to be relevant to the story or the characters' decisions.

As in, I don't think her indecisiveness in rejecting him had much really to do with feeling pressured by her workplace to not be rude to a customer. I think she was just really dense and truly didn't think he was serious with it despite the very obvious and direct approach.

last edited at May 20, 2022 6:44PM

People are defending him saying that the criticism stems simply from the fact that he's a man, when the reality is that he's acting as if he can decide for Saho, as if she owes him something for his two years of one-sided flirting. Plus, taking into account the cultural context (as a commenter described perfectly earlier), the fact that he is a man probably does play a role in this, and it's possible the situation would have played out differently if he were a woman. (Of course, given Saho's personality, it could very well have gone exactly the same, but at least there wouldn't be all this —unintentional— pressure from her environment).

I feel like you're reading the narrative backwards.
No one's saying he should get a pass on his pushiness "just because he's a man", we're saying that the cultural context explains his behaviour without intrinsically making him a bad person.

He doesn't "act like he can decide for Saho" at all, he just thinks his feelings are reciprocated because she's never been anything but positive towards him even after he's literally said outright that he wants to be her boyfriend. The fact that he's been allowed to flirt with her so explicitly for two years without getting rejected even once has simply convinced him that she is interested just hesitant about his sincerity, and consequently that what he needs to do is be as frank and direct as humanly possible. (Which is why he's so direct during the confession, he thinks that's what she wants him to do.)

Though yes, he's too touchy with her during the confession, but it's not because he's an asshole. He just misread her signals and thought they were closer than they really were.

Furthermore, no one was saying that his behaviour would've been more accepted if he was a woman in-universe, we were referring to the discussion section here on the forums. That if a woman had behaved like that to another woman, a lot of the people who are calling this man creepy would've been much more accepting of the exact same behaviour simply because it was yuri. (Which isn't a strange bias, this is a place to look for yuri after all.)

I feel that comparing the situation in this manga to the real-life situation of "pressure in the workplace for waitresses" is somewhat misguided. Everyone involved seems like good friends and I don't get the impression that the author intended for the possible pressure of being in their workplace environment to be relevant to the story or the characters' decisions.

As in, I don't think her indecisiveness in rejecting him had much really to do with feeling pressured by her workplace to not be rude to a customer. I think she was just really dense and truly didn't think he was serious with it despite the very obvious and direct approach.

I feel like this is a good summary of the arguments being made. No outright bad people in this manga.

People are defending him saying that the criticism stems simply from the fact that he's a man, when the reality is that he's acting as if he can decide for Saho, as if she owes him something for his two years of one-sided flirting. Plus, taking into account the cultural context (as a commenter described perfectly earlier), the fact that he is a man probably does play a role in this, and it's possible the situation would have played out differently if he were a woman. (Of course, given Saho's personality, it could very well have gone exactly the same, but at least there wouldn't be all this —unintentional— pressure from her environment).

I feel like you're reading the narrative backwards.
No one's saying he should get a pass on his pushiness "just because he's a man", we're saying that the cultural context explains his behaviour without intrinsically making him a bad person.

I never claimed that people said that he should get a pass because he's a man, though. I don't really think he's necessarily a bad person, but their environment seems to be is giving him a pass to act as one.

Furthermore, no one was saying that his behaviour would've been more accepted if he was a woman in-universe, we were referring to the discussion section here on the forums. That if a woman had behaved like that to another woman, a lot of the people who are calling this man creepy would've been much more accepting of the exact same behaviour simply because it was yuri. (Which isn't a strange bias, this is a place to look for yuri after all.)

Honestly, this whole discussion has little to do with how the characters themselves see the situation, since no one ever seemed to find his behaviour out-of-line, as many here do. (That is not to say that the author didn't intend to portray him as out-of-line though). I guess what I'm trying to say is, just because this is a site with yuri fans who would likely overlook a lot from a female character if they got their yuri ending, it should not make the arguments against this guy any less valid. If anything, the problem is that this hypothetical woman in his place wouldn't be criticised, not that he is.

He doesn't "act like he can decide for Saho" at all, he just thinks his feelings are reciprocated because she's never been anything but positive towards him even after he's literally said outright that he wants to be her boyfriend. The fact that he's been allowed to flirt with her so explicitly for two years without getting rejected even once has simply convinced him that she is interested just hesitant about his sincerity, and consequently that what he needs to do is be as frank and direct as humanly possible. (Which is why he's so direct during the confession, he thinks that's what she wants him to do.)

Though yes, he's too touchy with her during the confession, but it's not because he's an asshole. He just misread her signals and thought they were closer than they really were.

I've already commented on how I find his misreading both Saho's and Tamaki's signals as a sign of arrogance. He only sees what he wants to see.
And to me that reads as criticism towards gender norms by the author themselves. The guy here isn't supposed to be excused or sympathised with, he's supposed to be an example to avoid.

I feel that comparing the situation in this manga to the real-life situation of "pressure in the workplace for waitresses" is somewhat misguided. Everyone involved seems like good friends and I don't get the impression that the author intended for the possible pressure of being in their workplace environment to be relevant to the story or the characters' decisions.

As in, I don't think her indecisiveness in rejecting him had much really to do with feeling pressured by her workplace to not be rude to a customer. I think she was just really dense and truly didn't think he was serious with it despite the very obvious and direct approach.

I think dense isn't the right word to use here. Insecure maybe.
I stand by what I've said about the workplace though. He is a regular and she's just being friendly with him as she is with everyone. And the fact that everyone seems ready to stand witness to their marriage is definitely adding to that insecurity, making it even harder for her to really express how she feels.

People are defending him saying that the criticism stems simply from the fact that he's a man, when the reality is that he's acting as if he can decide for Saho, as if she owes him something for his two years of one-sided flirting. Plus, taking into account the cultural context (as a commenter described perfectly earlier), the fact that he is a man probably does play a role in this, and it's possible the situation would have played out differently if he were a woman. (Of course, given Saho's personality, it could very well have gone exactly the same, but at least there wouldn't be all this —unintentional— pressure from her environment).

I feel like you're reading the narrative backwards.
No one's saying he should get a pass on his pushiness "just because he's a man", we're saying that the cultural context explains his behaviour without intrinsically making him a bad person.

He doesn't "act like he can decide for Saho" at all, he just thinks his feelings are reciprocated because she's never been anything but positive towards him even after he's literally said outright that he wants to be her boyfriend. The fact that he's been allowed to flirt with her so explicitly for two years without getting rejected even once has simply convinced him that she is interested just hesitant about his sincerity, and consequently that what he needs to do is be as frank and direct as humanly possible. (Which is why he's so direct during the confession, he thinks that's what she wants him to do.)

Though yes, he's too touchy with her during the confession, but it's not because he's an asshole. He just misread her signals and thought they were closer than they really were.

Furthermore, no one was saying that his behaviour would've been more accepted if he was a woman in-universe, we were referring to the discussion section here on the forums. That if a woman had behaved like that to another woman, a lot of the people who are calling this man creepy would've been much more accepting of the exact same behaviour simply because it was yuri. (Which isn't a strange bias, this is a place to look for yuri after all.)

I feel that comparing the situation in this manga to the real-life situation of "pressure in the workplace for waitresses" is somewhat misguided. Everyone involved seems like good friends and I don't get the impression that the author intended for the possible pressure of being in their workplace environment to be relevant to the story or the characters' decisions.

As in, I don't think her indecisiveness in rejecting him had much really to do with feeling pressured by her workplace to not be rude to a customer. I think she was just really dense and truly didn't think he was serious with it despite the very obvious and direct approach.

I feel like this is a good summary of the arguments being made. No outright bad people in this manga.

And Saho is a saint.

This was adorable, Saho is so cute when she accepts to go out.

Very cute story and cute couple, glad this got translated. I saw this work a while ago and was hoping it would happen one day!

Hah get fucked my guy

Wait so kenji and tamaki were friends? According to the last page. I can't read Japanese but I can read Chinese characters and the arrow between them states friends. Can someone who can read Japanese confirm what was written below the cycle?

last edited at May 22, 2022 5:51PM

2 years…? 2 years?

i would've felt a little bad for kenji if he didn't go for the "if she doesn't want to date me that doesn't mean a woman's fine" line, coupled with that expression. Talk about an immediate bad taste in my mouth, how rude.

I think he was in jealous mode (upset about rejection).

i would've felt a little bad for kenji if he didn't go for the "if she doesn't want to date me that doesn't mean a woman's fine" line, coupled with that expression. Talk about an immediate bad taste in my mouth, how rude.

I think he was in jealous mode (upset about rejection).

And to be fair, there is more logic behind it.

that was so adorable... i love saho so much...

Me101 posted:

Wait so kenji and tamaki were friends? According to the last page. I can't read Japanese but I can read Chinese characters and the arrow between them states friends. Can someone who can read Japanese confirm what was written below the cycle?

The last page is a memo for a story idea about a love triangle between friends.

It's not about this particular story, but about a vague idea of story the author had, but they went for something else in the end, with about the same character designs.

last edited at May 23, 2022 1:19PM

Me101 posted:

Wait so kenji and tamaki were friends? According to the last page. I can't read Japanese but I can read Chinese characters and the arrow between them states friends. Can someone who can read Japanese confirm what was written below the cycle?

The last page is a memo for a story idea about a love triangle between friends.

It's not about this particular story, but about a vague idea of story the author had, but they went for something else in the end, with about the same character designs.

Ah got it thanks

i would've felt a little bad for kenji if he didn't go for the "if she doesn't want to date me that doesn't mean a woman's fine" line, coupled with that expression. Talk about an immediate bad taste in my mouth, how rude.

I think he was in jealous mode (upset about rejection).

Sucks. Shit conclusion to jump to. And the fact that he's shown as still grumpy later means that the little shit can't get over it either. Double sucks.

This was precious as hell