It's not cheating if all parties are aware and consent. End of story.

Don't bother arguing with the "monogamy bad" people, they're being disingenuous. Romantic attachment to intimacy is normal (it's called making love for a reason), not some grand societal conspiracy to repress the people who want to fuck around, and not something even most people that argue those positions REALLY fail to understand. Finding the idea of selling intimacy repulsive or degrading is not evil. The people that would choose that line of work if it wasn't extremely profitable (because it's criminal) / if they weren't desperate are in the minority of the people in that profession.

It's a touchy subject because people like you have such wild misconceptions about it.

Love and sex being intertwined is a common perception pushed by a media that's largely engrossed with things like the purity of virginity, monogamy, and the treatment of sex as a somehow dirty thing you should only ever share with your partner. You can love someone without wanting to have sex with them, you can have sex with someone without loving them.

The thing about selling oneself is the fact that it should be your choice. It is your body to do with as you wish, and if you want to commodify your talents between the sheets that's your choice. It's not the trading of a body, but of a service that, like any physical labor job, just happens to use your body.

The harms and exploitations of sex work are perpetuated by the negative misconceptions and persecution of sex work and sex workers. Education and legalization lay the groundwork for protections and safety in the job. A sex workers who is in trouble would be more likely to go for help if she did not believe that she would be considered a criminal for her work, don't you think?

Thank you for clarifying my point, especially this "You can love someone without wanting to have sex with them, you can have sex with someone without loving them", but there's a fine line between them. Many people tend to think LOVE only means ROMANTIC FEELINGS, when it's not exactly true, as much as they believe that LOVE and SEX are intertwined. Sexuality and romanticism aren't synonyms.

Don't bother arguing with the "monogamy bad" people, they're being disingenuous. Romantic attachment to intimacy is normal (it's called making love for a reason), not some grand societal conspiracy to repress the people who want to fuck around, and not something even most people that argue those positions REALLY fail to understand. Finding the idea of selling intimacy repulsive or degrading is not evil. The people that would choose that line of work if it wasn't extremely profitable (because it's criminal) / if they weren't desperate are in the minority of the people in that profession.

I never said monogamy was bad, my statement was more in line with the fact that it's by and large the most dominant kind of relationship you'll see in media. There isn't much that deviates from it, much less in a positive manner. I also never said it was wrong to feel romantic attachment to your sexual partner, just that it is entirely possible to not have a romantic attraction to them.

As far as thinking of the people who find it "repulsive or degrading" my most positive opinion of them is that they're misguided, misinformed, or a puritan who thinks their opinion on how another person uses their body and sexuality is worth something.

I would like some recent numbers on these people you claim are only there in desperation though. Could you provide a source? I could use a good read or a good laugh.

last edited at Sep 2, 2020 4:40PM

While I'm not against prostitution per se, pretending it should be considered a normal job is naive at best, disingenuous at worst. You're denying the suffering of millions of people around the world.

Just answer about this sincerely: would you want your sister or your mother work that kind of job? Just think about it carefully. If you answer yes, you're a liar.

And blah blah blah, "sexuality and romanticism aren't synonyms"... everyone here knows that. It's not as if anyone is denying that there can be sex without love and love without sex. It's an obvious strawman.

It's just that usually (not always), one leads to the other, not necessarily in that order. Pretending they are unrelated because there are some exceptions is dishonest.

No, prostitution is not a "normal job", because it involves a lot of psychological and physical factors that touch intimacy, social image and self-representation. I don't doubt there are well adjusted prostitutes, but I think they are the minority among the millions of exploited others.

Yes, any adult can choose to sell sexual services if they want to (emphasis on "they want to").

And no, this manga is just a fantasy and probably doesn't depict any reality about lesbian prostitution and it leaves the questions about that occupation unanswered, because it's not the focus of the story.

last edited at Sep 2, 2020 5:16PM

Just answer about this sincerely: would you want your sister or your mother work that kind of job? Just think about it carefully. If you answer yes, you're a liar.

Given how I'm for the destigmatization and the legalization of prostitution so that it can become a safer profession, I'm not sure how me saying yes would make me a liar. It'd have been their choice, and as such it'd be none of my business to say they couldn't or shouldn't. I'd support them as I would any sex worker.

It's a poorly worded question though. It'd be better asked if I'd support them if they wanted to work that kind of job.

Finding the idea of selling intimacy repulsive or degrading is not evil.

OTOH trying to ban it because you find it repulsive is evil.

The people that would choose that line of work if it wasn't extremely profitable (because it's criminal) / if they weren't desperate are in the minority of the people in that profession.

Do you have any sources other than "pulled out of your ass?"

Sex work is legal in lots of countries -- in fact, most developed countries. Escort prices are maybe slightly lower than in the US, but still like US$150/hour or more. If you've ever had a job you should be able to see some appeal in $150/hour while having a lot of control over your hours.

Legality makes it easier to find sex workers and talk to them, and both New Zealand and Australia have had surveys; the main reason for being one is economic, and not "I have to pay for drugs" economic.

Sadly my primary source for NZ has gone the way of website bitrot, but these blog posts have some summaries: https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/numerology/ and https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/by-the-numbers/

I also have my own notes recorded:

• 51% of street workers said enjoying the sex was a reason.
• 45% of street workers were supporting drug or alcohol use, vs. 10-14% of other workers.
• street workers were 2.5% of the total
• 62% of street workers said it was easier to refuse a client after full decriminalization.
• Most workers were 18 or older when they started
• only 4.3% reported some level of coercion, though 8% of street workers, and 18% of workers who had started underage. [ETA: could be interesting to compare to how many non-sex work women feel coerced into having sex]
• 82% were paying for household expenses.

https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2011/04/29/a-narrow-view/
The John Jay study of underaged NYC sex workers found 16% were coerced.

This Queensland study is still online: http://www.pla.qld.gov.au/Resources/PLA/reportsPublications/documents/Select%20Sex%20Industry%20Statistics.pdf

• More sex workers had college degrees than the average Australian.
• They had lower rates of STDs than others

• Street workers tended to be paying for drugs (75%) but few of others (2% brothel, 8.5% escorts) [ETA: street workers accounted for only 2% of all sex workers in Queensland.]

• "half of the prostitute sample earned on average as much as the highest earning two per cent of the Australian population, or as much as the highest earning 0.4 per cent of females in Australia. Over three-quarters of the prostitutes earned as much as the highest earning 9 per cent of Australians"

• "Many prostitutes will leave the sex industry if they cannot earn at least twice the salary they would earn in "straight" employment because they have a value on what it is worth to work as a prostitute"...

And again, it's legal in Australia.

last edited at Feb 4, 2021 2:11PM

If you answer yes, you're a liar.

Wow, such telepathy.

I don't doubt there are well adjusted prostitutes, but I think they are the minority among the millions of exploited others.

Millions are exploited because prostitution isn't legalized in many countries, simple as that. And it isn't legal because people tend to stigmatize prostitutionーand sex, especially when women take the initiative, is still taboo in our society.

While I'm not against prostitution per se, pretending it should be considered a normal job is naive at best, disingenuous at worst. You're denying the suffering of millions of people around the world.

Just answer about this sincerely: would you want your sister or your mother work that kind of job? Just think about it carefully. If you answer yes, you're a liar.

And blah blah blah, "sexuality and romanticism aren't synonyms"... everyone here knows that. It's not as if anyone is denying that there can be sex without love and love without sex. It's an obvious strawman.

It's just that usually (not always), one leads to the other, not necessarily in that order. Pretending they are unrelated because there are some exceptions is dishonest.

No, prostitution is not a "normal job", because it involves a lot of psychological and physical factors that touch intimacy, social image and self-representation. I don't doubt there are well adjusted prostitutes, but I think they are the minority among the millions of exploited others.

Yes, any adult can choose to sell sexual services if they want to (emphasis on "they want to").

And no, this manga is just a fantasy and probably doesn't depict any reality about lesbian prostitution and it leaves the questions about that occupation unanswered, because it's not the focus of the story.

Part of the reason sex work is so unsafe in most of the world is because is because of it's illegality. When you decriminalize and regulate, as with any illegal industry e.g. marijuana, the criminal elements can be weeded out and it can be made as safe as any other industry. It's fine if you don't like it, but let's not pretend that this isn't just your personal preferences. Also, lets not ignore the tens of millions of people all over the world who are so uneducated about how to find a partner that prostitution is pretty much the only sexual intimacy they will receive in their entire lives. This is one of the biggest reasons that the sex industry will never go away. The vast majority of human beings, like all animals, need some kind of sexual relief that isn't just a hand.

What the fuck is up with all this prostitution lately. Is this yuri's NTR or something? I know, next should be prostitution + NTR. I bet Kodama Naoko is working on it already.

Do please explain how sex work has anything to do with NTR.

You mean to tell me you can't see how "your partner has sex with other people for money" has anything to do with "your partner has sex with other people"?

Sex work on its own doesn't, sure, but we're talking about an influx of romance stories about it, and romance + sex work is pretty much NTR territory.

Bullshit. Every one of these stories is about either single women or women with no shown or even mentioned partners. You basically pulled NTR right out of your ass.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/teary_eyed_prince#16

"Umm... we're already going out right?"
"Then why are you still using the service to reserve me!?"

What the fuck is up with all this prostitution lately. Is this yuri's NTR or something? I know, next should be prostitution + NTR. I bet Kodama Naoko is working on it already.

Do please explain how sex work has anything to do with NTR.

You mean to tell me you can't see how "your partner has sex with other people for money" has anything to do with "your partner has sex with other people"?

Sex work on its own doesn't, sure, but we're talking about an influx of romance stories about it, and romance + sex work is pretty much NTR territory.

Bullshit. Every one of these stories is about either single women or women with no shown or even mentioned partners. You basically pulled NTR right out of your ass.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/teary_eyed_prince#16

"Umm... we're already going out right?"
"Then why are you still using the service to reserve me!?"

Yes, they are both aware of her job and consent to it. That's not NTR

Homura Subaru's Smexy scenes are still hot af hands down man even tho I'm not much of a fan of lactation but I love me some jugs and there's no denying that.

With the recent anthology with prostitute stories and all has been really good cuz compare to the NTR that went on a few weeks ago... I really didn't have much of a choice to read em considering there's not much of an update for the nsfw tags.

I'm more of a plot type of person. As long as they got some good story and pretty decent art then I don't mind. I'm just glad they made more updates that's not angsty and not NTR.

How tf is this NTR some of y'all really do love pulling shit out of your ass, anyways this was nice I always love seeing childhood friends reuniting and confessing their love for one another, I hope this is the road "Asumi-chan Is Interested In Lesbian Brothels" goes down or well at least it has me excited to see this happen for them.

last edited at Sep 2, 2020 11:35PM by

Enters
Sees walls of text and most notably people mentioning NTR
quickly leaves

last edited at Sep 3, 2020 12:40AM

I just like the random comment here about Homura Subaru.

I don't doubt there are well adjusted prostitutes, but I think they are the minority among the millions of exploited others.

Millions are exploited because prostitution isn't legalized in many countries, simple as that. And it isn't legal because people tend to stigmatize prostitutionーand sex, especially when women take the initiative, is still taboo in our society.

Legalizing prostitution doesn't make them any less exploited, especially those stuck in sex trafficking. It just makes the market blow up. You don't need to look much further than parts of the world where prostitution is all but legal. You wind up with children openly soliciting their services for pennies on the dollar. Even if prostitution was legalized, checks and balances in place to keep them safe and healthy and paying their taxes, there would always be a black market for it offering the service that much cheaper at a cost that undercuts the "legit" business, at the expense of the workers themselves, of course.

I don't even necessarily think it shouldn't be legalized, but I have no disillusion that it's going to somehow create a safer world for workers. Maybe on the brightest surface we're able to easily scrutinize. But those on the lower rungs are always going to be exploited. Mary Joe who wants to get into the world of prostitution like she wanted to be a topless dancer might be fine in a decriminalized market, but those forced to be a prostitute behind closed doors won't see any of that safety.

last edited at Sep 3, 2020 7:45AM

I don't doubt there are well adjusted prostitutes, but I think they are the minority among the millions of exploited others.

Millions are exploited because prostitution isn't legalized in many countries, simple as that. And it isn't legal because people tend to stigmatize prostitutionーand sex, especially when women take the initiative, is still taboo in our society.

Legalizing prostitution doesn't make them any less exploited, especially those stuck in sex trafficking. It just makes the market blow up. You don't need to look much further than parts of the world where prostitution is all but legal. You wind up with children openly soliciting their services for pennies on the dollar. Even if prostitution was legalized, checks and balances in place to keep them safe and healthy and paying their taxes, there would always be a black market for it offering the service that much cheaper at a cost that undercuts the "legit" business, at the expense of the workers themselves, of course.

I don't even necessarily think it shouldn't be legalized, but I have no disillusion that it's going to somehow create a safer world for workers. Maybe on the brightest surface we're able to easily scrutinize. But those on the lower rungs are always going to be exploited. Mary Joe who wants to get into the world of prostitution like she wanted to be a topless dancer might be fine in a decriminalized market, but those forced to be a prostitute behind closed doors won't see any of that safety.

Did you miss rainbow8's post with documentation or are you just too stupid to read.

You wind up with children openly soliciting their services for pennies on the dollar.

Bullshit.

I have been in legal-prostitution countries, been through red light districts deliberately and not, and never seen such a thing. Not that I was looking for such, but if they exist they're certainly not nearly as open as the adult streetwalkers outside a Madrid police station in the tourist district (or the non-legal ones in Waikiki, years ago), or 'window girls' in Amsterdam and Osaka, or Australian brothels, all of which I stumbled across without looking for them, just walking around.

Now, I've never been to a country poorer than upper middle income (GDP/capita of $15,000), nor to Thailand with its own particular reputation, but as far as developed countries go, no, you will not find children openly soliciting their services.

Nice boobs

rainbow8 posted:
Now, I've never been to a country poorer than upper middle income (GDP/capita of $15,000), nor to Thailand with its own particular reputation, but as far as developed countries go, no, you will not find children openly soliciting their services.

Sure, you won't see children in the streets in developed countries. Except... maybe that girl in the street who says she's 18 is actually 15. And maybe even the client knows, but pretends he doesn't. And maybe she's actually an illegal alien.

You'll have nice and clean brothels, with documented people in the front. And undocumented illegals in the back, forced to do sex-work to pay for their passage and whose passport has been taken away. You can pretend it doesn't exist, or that since it's illegal, it should be prosecuted all the way. But where there's is demand, there's offer, because money makes the world go round. It won't go away because you legalize a way to sell sexual services.

Legal prostitution isn't a solution. It's a cop-out. Education is. Especially of men who think they are entitled to have sex and see women as objects.

rainbow8 posted:
Now, I've never been to a country poorer than upper middle income (GDP/capita of $15,000), nor to Thailand with its own particular reputation, but as far as developed countries go, no, you will not find children openly soliciting their services.

Sure, you won't see children in the streets in developed countries. Except... maybe that girl in the street who says she's 18 is actually 15. And maybe even the client knows, but pretends he doesn't. And maybe she's actually an illegal alien.

You'll have nice and clean brothels, with documented people in the front. And undocumented illegals in the back, forced to do sex-work to pay for their passage and whose passport has been taken away. You can pretend it doesn't exist, or that since it's illegal, it should be prosecuted all the way. But where there's is demand, there's offer, because money makes the world go round. It won't go away because you legalize a way to sell sexual services.

Legal prostitution isn't a solution. It's a cop-out. Education is. Especially of men who think they are entitled to have sex and see women as objects.

Such illegal things happen even in legal industries. Just because making something better doesn't make the bad thing go away 100% doesn't mean we should just give up on trying.

Legal prostitution isn't a solution. It's a cop-out. Education is. Especially of men who think they are entitled to have sex and see women as objects.

Every documented legalization of illegal substances or activities would disagree with you. Legalization and regulation would allow those being exploited to actually report it to the authorities without fear of being arrested. Prohibition does not work, and it never has.

Throbelisk posted:

Legal prostitution isn't a solution. It's a cop-out. Education is. Especially of men who think they are entitled to have sex and see women as objects.

Every documented legalization of illegal substances or activities would disagree with you. Legalization and regulation would allow those being exploited to actually report it to the authorities without fear of being arrested. Prohibition does not work, and it never has.

Actually, developed countries where prostitution is illegal never jail prostitutes themselves, but only those who profit from it and coerce others into it. The fear of being arrested is rarely there. But the fear to get deported back to their country is there, whether prostitution is legal or not.

In a state where prostitution is legal, like Nevada, an exploited illegal who would come to report to the authorities would get a thank you, then would be deported in the same beat.

Legalization is hypocritical. It never stopped the illegal parts. It just allows the "authorities" to have their share of the cake.

Actually, developed countries where prostitution is illegal never jail prostitutes themselves, but only those who profit from it and coerce others into it. The fear of being arrested is rarely there. But the fear to get deported back to their country is there, whether prostitution is legal or not.

In a state where prostitution is legal, like Nevada, an exploited illegal who would come to report to the authorities would get a thank you, then would be deported in the same beat.

Legalization is hypocritical. It never stopped the illegal parts. It just allows the "authorities" to have their share of the cake.

I wasn't talking about illegals. That's an entirely separate problem. If they weren't being exploited sexually, they'd be exploited another way. That's a problem with human beings and greed. Legalization is in no way hypocritical. It allows people to do what they would do anyway without wasting law enforcement resources on problems that shouldn't even exist. Regulation allows taxation, which funds public services, as I'm sure you know. You think pimps are paying taxes on illegal prostitution? Gimme a fucking break. Will legalization stop illegal prostitution? Of course not. But it will give a better option to people.