I was actually calling you out on the fact that you were basically defaming Itou Hachi. But since you edited your posts since then, I guess that's that.

Yeah, I realized that I was attacking the author for no reason as her life is not relevant to me disliking her work. My second post in particular I got caught up trying to defend myself and accidentally made it even worse. I'm sorry and definitely would have lost points in debate club for it.

Wait, wait—a reasonable outcome in an Itou Hachi thread?

Is that even legal?

Well done, folks.

last edited at May 18, 2020 8:09AM

ah yas, the belly button makes an excellent pseudovagina

Legally- I don’t give a shit about arbitrary laws
Morally- It’s fine to me
Personally- lolis aren’t my thing, but I like reading oneeloli manga

last edited at May 18, 2020 9:06AM

Itou Hachi's stuff is really sweet and makes it easy to see things from the perspective of the little girl as well. Taking what would be a hopeless childhood love in the real world, crushing on the pretty older lady in your neighborhood, and making a story where that love bears fruit. That appeal exists as well.

There are people who are able to enjoy a fantasy about grooming like this explicitly because it's not real, because the girl and the adult are characters rather than people. These sorts of fantasies can appeal to people who fantasize about the grooming but would have no interest in doing it in real life, and people who fantasize about being groomed (even if they might have trauma from this sort of abuse in the real world).

I'm really glad Itou Hachi's stories exist for this reason. I hope we get more of these two but we probably won't. Itou is currently considering making an Animal Crossing Whitney x Kiki oneeloli doujin. I hope they do and that it gets translated online.

Lolien Vs Predator

Whoever wins, I end up feeling bad about my judgment.

Itou Hachi is evil for leaving us on that cliffhnager.

Calthesa posted:

created for pedophiles such as those involving these realistic grooming scenarios and if you defend such works, you will often end up defending inherently problematic elements like grooming whether you mean to or not. Which is not a good look.

It's funny to hear someone unironically saying "making something too realistically is wrong", when half of discussions around works focus around how believable work is. Anyway, my question is "Why?". You do realize there's a difference between saying "There's nothing wrong with portraying action X in media" and "There's nothing wrong with action X"? Just because someone says that action X is allowed in media, doesn't mean they are fine with it happening in real life. We keep talking about how ability to distinguishing between real life from fiction is really important for a reason. There's room for nuanced discussion how portraying certain things in certain ways in all of the media, when people are not properly educated or familiar with those things, can lead to them subconsciously or not, absorbing those elements and spreading misunderstanding or misconceptions about them, but to simply say "X thing has no right to exist in media, because it's bad" is just too narrow-minded. In fact if anything, portraying something correctly and realistically in media can help in spreading bigger awareness of the issue. You can say, it teaches people how to groom. I say, it teaches people (and maybe even possibly children) how to recognize you're being groomed.

When we get angry about those kind of discussion, it's because we're talking about things that everyone knows are bad in real life and it was talked to death why those things are wrong. Every time a loli or rape story is uploaded we got first 5 pages of people commenting how wrong and unjustified it is and why it has no right to exist. We got it. The issue is because of people who do that, any actual in-depth discussion about work is pretty much death, because any discussion that could happen about actual work or how it presents those things in the narrative, not how it affects real life, is pretty much lost, because of all people commenting how this work should be deleted and author and people enjoying it send to prison and people who could actually discuss the work seriously either give up on thread or spend their entire energy defending work's right to exist. That's why people are so defensive about those kinds of works. It has nothing to do with them being secretly pedophiles and worrying their favorite outlet might be taken away. We're just tired from going through the same bs every time and have no more patience for it, so instead of calmly listening to other side and looking for nuance in discussion, we simply go hard from the get go with "media has no effect on people, if you can't tell reality from fiction you're insane".

last edited at May 19, 2020 5:04PM

Man whomever wrote the last page of chapter 4 is my spirit animal

You'd think after seeing that it's Otone who keeps advancing the relationship on her own initiative (she brought up the subject of romance, cutely needled Onee-san for whom she was in love with, asked Onee-san for them to be lovers, asked to touch Onee-san's breasts, and offered to let Onee-san touch her body in return when Onee-san didn't even give a hint that she was expecting/wanting anything) that people would seriously question whether "grooming" is applicable here. If anyone is doing any "grooming", it's Otone that is "grooming" herself on her own, with Onee-san having little to no input in the matter (she's not even responsible for the "grooming" being started to begin with!).

In fact, what we should be questioning is the following facts about this world that we've learned from Chapter 4:
* Exhibit A: It's quite normal for a periodical magazine to discuss "love among elementary school students" and do a survey on whether said children are "going out with someone right now", 20% of elementary school-age children answered said quesiton with "Yes", Otone merely commented that she finds the magazine's material too complicated for her to bother with, while Onee-san merely commented that "today's kids are quite precocious".
* Exhibit B: Otone, a third-grade elementary school student, already knows about homosexuality due to having been taught that in "ethics class". Keep in mind that the story is set in Japan, which is not known for being progressive on the subject of LGBTQ+ matters.
* Exhibit C: Otone is not at all weirded out by Onee-san confessing that the former is whom she's in love with; in fact, she seemed more confused by Onee-san apologizing for being in love with the girl (which is a very good point; she can't decide who she falls in love with, so why feel bad about it?). Apparently, she doesn't seem to even pay much thought to the age gap between the two of them, which implies that there's something quite unusual in her upbringing.

And of course, there's the weirdness that, barring Chapter 0 (which, in hindsight, appears to be more of an independent pilot that was made merely to test the waters, and isn't actually connected to the subsequent chapters continuity-wise), is Otone unilaterally keeping her newfound relationship with Onee-san (which, I must repeat, is Otone's idea) a secret from her parents without any clear in-story reasoning behind it. She clearly thinks little if anything of the age gap, and we've yet to see either her or Onee-san discuss or even allude to the secrecy in any way; the only sign that Otone is even hiding the relationship is when she decided to bathe alone for the first time in her life to avoid having her mother see the hickey on her stomach, and even then, her past behavior makes it quite plausible that she did it merely out of embarrassment over having a hickey than fear of her mother flipping her lid over discovering that someone was physically intimate with her elementary school-aged daughter.

I mean, I love my lolicon manga and doujinshi, but this is the first time I've seen such a story where the couple's secretiveness about their relationship appears to be conspicuously inexplicable by way of lacking an actual motive. Even the Master and Mel manga brought up the illegality of the couple's relationship on account of Mel being both underage and a beastkin (though I'm not sure whether they're separate factors, or inherently interlinked in the "beastkin are permanently stuck in childhood" sense), and how the two's relocation to a remote and smaller country house was entirely for the sake of being able to pursue their relationship in the safety of social isolation from the rest of the world that (at least for the time being) rejects said romance without room for negotiation.

You wouldn't think creepy-cute slice of life would have continuity problems, but it's kinda hard to reconcile chapter 4 with the rest of it?

What continuity problem? And before you answer, you should read Chapter 1, since what was originally listed under that number is actually Chapter 2.

Man whomever wrote the last page of chapter 4 is my spirit animal

Incidentally, it's also the last page of Chapter 1 (the actual Chapter 1, which was uploaded alongside Ch00 and Ch04).

Its fiction lol

Thank you based Itou

11): It's quite normal for a periodical magazine to discuss "love among elementary school students" and do a survey on whether said children are "going out with someone right now", 20% of elementary school-age children answered said quesiton with "Yes", Otone merely commented that she finds the magazine's material too complicated for her to bother with, while Onee-san merely commented that "today's kids are quite precocious".

I definitely would believe it if 20% of elementary schoolers were dating. There would sometimes be some couples back when I was a kid, in-fact, when I was in 5th grade one of my friends was dating a girl, and that was quite a while ago, I can imagine modern day children being more precocious about dating. Of course the majority are likely just innocent crushes with “dating” being just playing together and stuff.

MarqFJA87 posted:

You'd think after seeing that it's Otone who keeps advancing the relationship on her own initiative that people would seriously question whether "grooming" is applicable here.

Sadly they can easily dismiss everything you just said on the simple basic of "children can't consent therefore no matter how willing child is or how much they push it, unless it's 18 years old it's not mature enough to make informed decisions about dating, it's always statutory rape and always adult's fault by default", because we're talking about real life and not fiction, am I right? Simply according to those people, any argument you can give is invalid by default, because we're talking about children. You just can't win against them.

last edited at May 20, 2020 7:27AM

This thread is debating the entirely wrong things. What we really need to ask is whether Otone was thirsty because she jogged, or did she jog because she was thirsty.

Fbi agent is watching me from the window

last edited at May 20, 2020 7:51AM

luinthoron posted:

This thread is debating the entirely wrong things. What we really need to ask is whether Otone was thirsty because she jogged, or did she jog because she was thirsty.

Hahaha xD It's so obviously the latter xP

This thread is debating the entirely wrong things. What we really need to ask is whether Otone was thirsty because she jogged, or did she jog because she was thirsty.

It's cute of you to assume that the answers are mutually exclusive.

This thread is debating the entirely wrong things. What we really need to ask is whether Otone was thirsty because she jogged, or did she jog because she was thirsty.

It's cute of you to assume that the answers are mutually exclusive.

Nah, after thinking a bit, I actually expected the answer to be the usual "Yes."

I love itou's works but this is way too disturbing for me

Imagine arguing about morals in a fucking pirated manga website.

pedophilia apologists

KawaiiSuika posted:

pedophilia apologists

And that's exactly why we can't have any productive conversations about works with lolis.

And... so what if Itou's a real life pedophile? Can you prove that she's diddling kids just because she released works about characters doing so? You might claim that that's not what you're saying, but that's what you're implying. That's quite a judgmental attitude you have there, don't you think? Does the creator of Saw construct elaborate death games in real life too? And before you try to reject the connection between these two, I'm gonna stop you, because the connection is valid and a good case to dismiss your nonsense claims that just because "some," as you say, works of fiction are "problematic," that they somehow hold less value intrinsically than those that you find no problems with, and thus not worth "defending," as you say. You're free to like what you like, and yes, do feel free to take your money elsewhere, but calling stuff problematic just because you personally don't like it is a disservice to productive discussion and makes you come off as a moralistic jerk. What you're saying is NOT criticism, it's insult, and I won't stand for it, regardless of whether I like a work of fiction or not.

PS: I also prefaced the projection thing with a "If I didn't know any better," so that's on you if you somehow felt offended by the offhand remark. Besides, I'm not even talking about projection of pedophilia, but projection of general character flaws. What was the saying again in English? "If the shoe fits..." was it? Your use of words like "problematic" and "not a good look" is a hallmark of people who think too highly of themselves, so I sure do hope you're not one of them.

You know what, you're right that without proof Itou's doing something illegal like actually touching kids or consuming real child pornography that it doesn't matter and I shouldn't have said I thought she was a pedophile based solely on her fictional work. I shouldn't have brought the author's personal life into this and I will edit my posts to remove it. That's my bad.

Also, I do think horror movies can contain problematic elements and that the issue is more complex than showing murder=real life murder and did not mean to imply showing grooming translates directly to raping children. I try not to be hypocritical in my moralistic jerk-ness.

I stand by my point that certain problematic tropes that appear in works like this are bad, potentially normalize behavior like grooming if they become mainstream, and that I personally will continue to not consume works containing them because I don't like them. I think that's fair enough for an internet opinion.

IMO Itou Hachi is a pedophile, but pedophilia is a state, not an action. People are pedophiles or they are not, regardless of their actions. Further pedophilia is not a crime in any country that I'm aware of. It's actions commonly associated with pedophilia that is the crime.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, is there a single corner of the internet that isn't infested with antis? It's not real, the characters aren't real, the happenings aren't real. And don't just accuse the author of being a pedophile, that's a big ass accusation that you should not throw at people lightly. If anything, it's that "everything is pedophilia" mindset that trivialize real pedophilia and child abuse.

does anyone know if they'll be any new chapters of this?

I WANT TO SEE THE LOVEY DOVEY STUFF