Kyouko doesn't deserve Kurumi

Like, her whole life Kurumi has been putting her heart on her sleeve and putting herself out there while all Kyouko did was watch and help her sweep up the shattered pieces of Kurumi's heart

Sure, Kurumi has gotten hurt by that a whole lot but she still races towards the front lines, meanwhile, Kyouko just sits and watches the battle from the rear.
You'd think seeing your friend go through that time and again but still managing to stand back up would be motivating, but I guess not.

last edited at Jan 7, 2020 7:16PM

karp posted:

The point isn't it doesn't count if Nika is bi;

I never said it doesn't though.

the point is that Nika's answer is vague and does not really address the question. "Oh huh, I mean I want to get to know you better so let's date?" If she'd said, "Yeah, I guess I don't mind dating girls, but I've never really met a girl I liked before" that'd be different (but that might be an issue of the translation, though).

She can't say "I don't mind dating girls", because she don't know that. She never dated or liked one, so how can she say that? She said "I never dated girl before, but I want to try". She didn't know if she can like girls that way or not, so that's why she decided to try dating Kurumi and getting to know her better, before assuming it's impossible. If anything I think it's way more progressive approach than usual immediate rejection. And from what we could see she actually do start to develop feelings for her. The thing is, while she does, she still has some lingering feelings for Jun and Kurumi wants her to solve that first, because that's more pressing issue at hand. She can't really focus on just dating Kurumi and figuring her own feelings toward her, while actively ignoring her past with Jun. Once she sorts her feelings for Jun for good, she can focus 100% on Kurumi and what she really feels about her.

Also my point was that Kurumi already asked her about it and she got a "I don't know, I want to give it a shot" answer and she agreed to that. What else she's supposed to do? Ask Nika every week or something on her thoughts and if she's gay yet? They're dating. It will either work out or not. Constantly asking Nika for feedback and pressuring her to figure out if she is bi or not already would be counterproductive and just straight rude. Kurumi is giving her time she needs. They can always break up. There's no like contract or time limit to it. There's no obligation or requirement to fulfil.

It reads to me like this manga is addressing Nika's sexuality in a CODED way,

Sorry, but I'm really not sure what you mean by that.

by making the central conflict about this one particular guy rather than about whether or not she's actually into girls.

From the start it was about Nika's feeling for Jun though. The fact she started to develop feelings for Kurumi and tries to figured out if it's friendship or love is important, but her feelings for Jun is what kick-started entire series, so they need to be addressed. Just because series is called "Between Philia and Eros" it doesn't mean it has to be all that it's about.

It makes the whole thematic meaning confusing, because it's a huge difference if a bi girl is philia towards another girl she's trying to date, or if a straight girl is trying to turn the philia she's capable of into eros.

It really sounds more like you're focusing on it so much, because you're afraid Nika might not be capable of developing love for Kurumi, and that would mean sad ending so you want to be prepared for that. And again, whatever she's capable of dating another girl, as in, being straight or bi, is the entire premise of the story. I was implying in my previous post that you're supposed to wait and see how Nika is going to solve those questions and what answer she'll come up with. Also again, one way to figure out if you can date other girl is, you know, trying to date other girl?

You'd think seeing your friend go through that time and again but still managing to stand back up would be motivating, but I guess not.

I'm sorry but I just don't understand this mindset. Everyone deserves love, no matter what (unless you're a serial killer or Hitler) but just because she hasn't even told Kurumi her feelings doesn't mean she hasn't been trying to deal with it internally. I think to say she doesn't deserve happiness is just unfair.

This is literally just Nice Guy™ bullshit but gay. "Oh woe is me she just keeps dating chads why doesn't she realize how wonderful I am as I passively exist in her orbit making no effort to actually court her"

Yes, that is a mistake on her part, she's a highschooler who's ever only had a crush on her childhood friend, after all. She judged Nika too early, it's an easy thing to do with all the (true) rumors about Nika floating around.

Anyways, if she doesn't get Kurumi, I really hope she at least ends up with someone else or ends up finding someone else to love, bonus points if she acquires more courage from this also. It would be a dick move if the author focused a whole chapter on this side character and not give her proper closure. That's just what I think though.

last edited at Jan 7, 2020 9:58PM

It would be a dick move if the author focused a whole chapter on this side character and not give her proper closure.

There is still Jun thought

I think to say she doesn't deserve happiness is just unfair.

Maybe but not with Kurumi at least.

It would be a dick move if the author focused a whole chapter on this side character and not give her proper closure.

There is still Jun thought

Was there a whole chapter focusing on what he felt like? I don't remember there was, remind me if there was one

I think to say she doesn't deserve happiness is just unfair.

Maybe but not with Kurumi at least.

Should Nika even deserve Kurumi herself? She used her, as a rebound. I guess Kurumi went into it knowing what was happening, but still. She's also done it to multiple guys, nonetheless. Where were her morals?

Also, Kurumi had enough morals to give her away, Nika didn't want to give up Jun. Like comparing Kurumi and her friend, it's like Nika doesn't even deserve Kurumi either.

last edited at Jan 7, 2020 10:12PM

Also my point was that Kurumi already asked her about it and she got a "I don't know, I want to give it a shot" answer and she agreed to that. What else she's supposed to do? Ask Nika every week or something on her thoughts and if she's gay yet? They're dating. It will either work out or not. Constantly asking Nika for feedback and pressuring her to
It really sounds more like you're focusing on it so much, because you're afraid Nika might not be capable of developing love for Kurumi, and that would mean sad ending so you want to be prepared for that. And again, whatever she's capable of dating another girl, as in, being straight or bi, is the entire premise of the story. I was implying in my previous post that you're supposed to wait and see how Nika is going to solve those questions and what answer she'll come up with. Also again, one way to figure out if you can date other girl is, you know, trying to date other girl?

No (I don't super think the relationship as set up now would be healthy). I'm saying the themes of the story confuse me. Is this about a girl who can't get over someone, or is about a girl who isn't actually that gay? Those aren't remotely the same thing.

It would be a dick move if the author focused a whole chapter on this side character and not give her proper closure.

There is still Jun thought

Was there a whole chapter focusing on what he felt like? I don't remember there was, remind me if there was one

I think she means pairing Kyouko with Jun. Which is a really weird idea and that's probably the reason for the strike through lol

Should Nika even deserve Kurumi herself? She used her, as a rebound. I guess Kurumi went into it knowing what was happening, but still. She's also done it to multiple guys, nonetheless. Where were her morals?

That's kind of a loaded question. The only way to answer whether someone "deserves" someone else is by resorting to value judgements, and people have different value systems, as well as different points of view on a specific situation.

No (I don't super think the relationship as set up now would be healthy). I'm saying the themes of the story confuse me. Is this about a girl who can't get over someone, or is about a girl who isn't actually that gay? Those aren't remotely the same thing.

I'm pretty sure Nikaidou's sexuality isn't the main issue in the story. Even if she does pick Jun in the end (unlikely), that still wouldn't prove that she's actually straight or anything. So yeah, it's probably about "a girl who can't get over someone".

last edited at Jan 7, 2020 11:57PM

I'm pretty sure Nikaidou's sexuality isn't the main issue in the story. Even if she does pick Jun in the end (unlikely), that still wouldn't prove that she's actually straight or anything. So yeah, it's probably about "a girl who can't get over someone".

Agreed. I don't think the question of Nika's sexuality is really an issue in this story at all. Neither she nor Kurumi has brought it up or worried about it since basically the first chapter. Other people have brought that up, but the only question that's relevant to them is whether Nika's feelings for Kurumi are romantic.

Also, I know this isn't determinant, but they did have sex. I guess you can have sex with a woman even if you're not into women, but I think that's at least indicative that Nika can go both ways.

last edited at Jan 8, 2020 12:22AM

I think she means pairing Kyouko with Jun. Which is a really weird idea and that's probably the reason for the strike through lol

Yeah it's that.

Kyouko may be a nosy girl who jumps to conclusions and has a quick temper, but damn she be dressing

Also, I know this isn't determinant, but they did have sex. I guess you can have sex with a woman even if you're not into women, but I think that's at least indicative that Nika can go both ways.

Wait, when did they have sex? They slept together in c6, but pretty sure they didn't have sex.

Also, I know this isn't determinant, but they did have sex. I guess you can have sex with a woman even if you're not into women, but I think that's at least indicative that Nika can go both ways.

Wait, when did they have sex? They slept together in c6, but pretty sure they didn't have sex.

I mean, it's not explicitly stated, but reread Chapter 8. What do you think happens immediately after this?

Maybe they just make out and then take a bath together. I'm assuming that's supposed to be a cue that sex follows.

I mean, it's not explicitly stated, but reread Chapter 8. What do you think happens immediately after this?

Maybe they just make out and then take a bath together. I'm assuming that's supposed to be a cue that sex follows.

Oh, good point, I had actually forgotten about that since the latest chapters have filled me with anxiety. I guess as almost everything in this series it can be interpreted to have gone as far as reader wants it to have gone. I think you're right tho, since they didn't implicitly stop at any point they probably went all the way.

Also, I know this isn't determinant, but they did have sex. I guess you can have sex with a woman even if you're not into women, but I think that's at least indicative that Nika can go both ways.

Wait, when did they have sex? They slept together in c6, but pretty sure they didn't have sex.

I mean, it's not explicitly stated, but reread Chapter 8. What do you think happens immediately after this?

Maybe they just make out and then take a bath together. I'm assuming that's supposed to be a cue that sex follows.

Knowing yuri manga, I kind of assumed we were just supposed to think they innocently smooched and that was it, but you're right, it is ambiguous.

Also, I know this isn't determinant, but they did have sex. I guess you can have sex with a woman even if you're not into women, but I think that's at least indicative that Nika can go both ways.

Wait, when did they have sex? They slept together in c6, but pretty sure they didn't have sex.

I mean, it's not explicitly stated, but reread Chapter 8. What do you think happens immediately after this?

Frindship, lots and lots of friendship, gals being pals all over each other, friendship overflowing

The ribbon on the floor is nice touch to indicate that their friendship is deepening

Jesus, slut shaming on Dynasty? What's wrong with you guys? All is fair in love, there's a reason that's a saying... As far as I'm concerned, this manga doesn't have any real villains, just characters with really common flaws. It's pretty believable.

If these people were people I knew, I don't think I'd have much to say. Nobody has done anything terrible. They're doing what they know best, I can't blame Kyou because hell if Kurumi ever saw her as anything so it's no surprise she's not confessed and is bitter, I can't blame Kurumi because from the beginning she knew she was the rebound, I can't blame Nika who is struggling with old feelings and new feelings as a teenager, I can't blame Jun who is thinking about college and the future and also worried about his childhood friend.

And that's why I like this, I have my own favorite (Kurumi) but I can't see any character as being a real villain.

I can't blame Kyou because hell if Kurumi ever saw her as anything so it's no surprise she's not confessed and is bitter

But i can. She push the fault on Nikaidou and Kurumi when she is the only one at fault. She blame Kurumi to not notice her feelings but never done anything to make her notice. She blame Nikaidou for "toying" with Kurumi's feelings when she don't anything about them. Not to mention the break-up wish and the fact she look relieved when she thought they have break up. You shouldn't be happy that the one you like is sad because they broke up from someone they love. At least she have realised herself how much of a coward she is.

I can't blame Kyou because hell if Kurumi ever saw her as anything so it's no surprise she's not confessed and is bitter

But i can. She push the fault on Nikaidou and Kurumi when she is the only one at fault. She blame Kurumi to not notice her feelings but never done anything to make her notice. She blame Nikaidou for "toying" with Kurumi's feelings when she don't anything about them. Not to mention the break-up wish and the fact she look relieved when she thought they have break up. You shouldn't be happy that the one you like is sad because they broke up from someone they love. At least she have realised herself how much of a coward she is.

That is really unfairly harsh judgement. If we were all damned for our thoughts then we'd all rot in hell.

I relate to her position since I was once in a similar situation, and honestly there are no easy answers.

I don't know, if Kyouko really love and care about Kurumi like she said, she wouldn't have wish for her to break up. I never been someone who wish bad things on people, even more on close one if i were angry. So sorry to not understand why someone would wish bad things to happen to someone they love because they're jealous someone had the courage to do something they never do because of their own cowardice.. To me Kyouko is despitable and i will really prefer it's not the endgame. Not like i think it will happen anyway because she realise herself how bad her wish at the shrine was.

I don't know, if Kyouko really love and care about Kurumi like she said, she wouldn't have wish for her to break up.

She's wishing for them to break up because she loves and cares about Kurumi. She thinks Nika is a negative influence on Kurumi's life and mental well being. Is she correct? I wouldn't say so, but she's well intentioned.

I don't know, if Kyouko really love and care about Kurumi like she said, she wouldn't have wish for her to break up.

She's wishing for them to break up because she loves and cares about Kurumi. She thinks Nika is a negative influence on Kurumi's life and mental well being. Is she correct? I wouldn't say so, but she's well intentioned.

One could argue that it's the reverse: she thinks so little of Nika partly (or mainly) because she wants them to break up. She basically had a single negative encounter with Nika and has refused to change her opinion of her since then despite all the evidence that she's very serious about her relationship with Kurumi. Kurumi has only positive things to say about her, and she even showed Kyouko the scarf Nika knitted for her. If that isn't proof that she's not some slut/cad just playing with Kurumi's feelings, I don't know what is.

So I think there's some evidence that at this point, Kyouko hates Nika simply out of jealousy. She says she wants them to break up out of concern for Kurumi, but there has to be an element of selfishness to that as well, whether she admits it or not.

One could argue that it's the reverse: she thinks so little of Nika partly (or mainly) because she wants them to break up. She basically had a single negative encounter with Nika and has refused to change her opinion of her since then despite all the evidence that she's very serious about her relationship with Kurumi. Kurumi has only positive things to say about her, and she even showed Kyouko the scarf Nika knitted for her. If that isn't proof that she's not some slut/cad just playing with Kurumi's feelings, I don't know what is.

So I think there's some evidence that at this point, Kyouko hates Nika simply out of jealousy. She says she wants them to break up out of concern for Kurumi, but there has to be an element of selfishness to that as well, whether she admits it or not.

I can definitely see where you're coming from here and I think it's a fair interpretation, but I don't see it that way personally. Her negative experiences with Nika (seeing her at the club, fighting with her at school) certainly give her fair reason to be doubtful of Nika's intentions, and Kurumi's positivity regarding Nika probably doesn't resonate with Kyouko, as she's watched Kurumi fall in love time and time again. She also knows about the love triangle business, which is just another reason (in her eyes) why Kurumi should get away and keep away. Also, she didn't learn about the scarf until after praying.

I think jealousy absolutely plays a role here, and a major one - but I don't think it's accurate to simplify her emotions to just that. Thus far, she hasn't struck me as someone willing to walk all over everyone's feelings as long as it ends well for her. I genuinely believe that she believes her prayer was the right thing to do for Kurumi.

I don't know, if Kyouko really love and care about Kurumi like she said, she wouldn't have wish for her to break up.

She's wishing for them to break up because she loves and cares about Kurumi. She thinks Nika is a negative influence on Kurumi's life and mental well being. Is she correct? I wouldn't say so, but she's well intentioned.

One could argue that it's the reverse: she thinks so little of Nika partly (or mainly) because she wants them to break up. She basically had a single negative encounter with Nika and has refused to change her opinion of her since then despite all the evidence that she's very serious about her relationship with Kurumi. Kurumi has only positive things to say about her, and she even showed Kyouko the scarf Nika knitted for her. If that isn't proof that she's not some slut/cad just playing with Kurumi's feelings, I don't know what is.

So I think there's some evidence that at this point, Kyouko hates Nika simply out of jealousy. She says she wants them to break up out of concern for Kurumi, but there has to be an element of selfishness to that as well, whether she admits it or not.

To be fair, everyone in this story has acted selfish at some point. I agree with you that Kyouko has refused to change her opinion of Nikaidou, but we also need to consider that Kyouko hasn't seen the more caring side of Nika like we have (and even among us readers, there's been a good deal of debate about how serious Nika's love for Kurumi is).

What Kyouko knows about Nikaidou is: 1) the things she's seen: the Karaoke night, and also Nika not going home with Kurumi because she was meeting Jun; 2) the rumors, which are mostly true anyway; and 3) the things Kurumi says about her, but love is blind and Kurumi's a bit of a dolt, so that doesn't sound much credible. Also, she seems to know that Nikaidou was dating Kurumi while being in love with someone else, and that does paint her in a bad light.

I think it's plausible that, in Kyouko's eyes, Nikaidou still looks like a bad person, someone who's going to hurt her dear friend someday.

I genuinely believe that she believes her prayer was the right thing to do for Kurumi.

To add to that, Kyou's prayer was for their break up, not for Kurumi to be hers. She even says that she doesn't want to see her in tears again.

She even says that she doesn't want to see her in tears again.

That's a bit condractory, want them to break up but don't want her to be in tears ? Pick one because you can't have both.

not for Kurumi to be hers.

It's the same goal for Kyouko in the end. She can't have Kurumi if she don't break up.

last edited at Jan 8, 2020 6:18PM