Once again, you assume this behavior (or rather, your particular re-interpretation/rephrasing of it) has an innate value separate from any particular manifestation or depiction of it, so of course you can’t come to any other conclusion than you do.

It’s not how I read texts, because I don’t see it as a very useful or enlightening way to do it. So it seems our mileage certainly does vary.

I'm not sure how reading texts through an uncritical lens is particularly enlightening. Then again I'm not sure how much enlightenment you excepted to get from cheesy teen romance regardless of how you read the text.

Once again, you assume this behavior (or rather, your particular re-interpretation/rephrasing of it) has an innate value separate from any particular manifestation or depiction of it, so of course you can’t come to any other conclusion than you do.

It’s not how I read texts, because I don’t see it as a very useful or enlightening way to do it. So it seems our mileage certainly does vary.

I'm not sure how reading texts through an uncritical lens is particularly enlightening. Then again I'm not sure how much enlightenment you excepted to get from cheesy teen romance regardless of how you read the text.

“Uncritical”—the word does not mean what you think it does.

Once again, you assume this behavior (or rather, your particular re-interpretation/rephrasing of it) has an innate value separate from any particular manifestation or depiction of it, so of course you can’t come to any other conclusion than you do.

It’s not how I read texts, because I don’t see it as a very useful or enlightening way to do it. So it seems our mileage certainly does vary.

I'm not sure how reading texts through an uncritical lens is particularly enlightening. Then again I'm not sure how much enlightenment you excepted to get from cheesy teen romance regardless of how you read the text.

“Uncritical”—the word does not mean what you think it does.

Critique of the moral or ethical worldview expressed in a work is still a valid avenue of critical thought whether you appreciate it or not.

“Uncritical”—the word does not mean what you think it does.

Critique of the moral or ethical worldview expressed in a work is still a valid avenue of critical thought whether you appreciate it or not.

"Expressed in" is not the same as "imposed on," which is what I know you do.

Bye.

last edited at Oct 4, 2019 10:43PM

“Uncritical”—the word does not mean what you think it does.

Critique of the moral or ethical worldview expressed in a work is still a valid avenue of critical thought whether you appreciate it or not.

"Expressed in" is not the same as "imposed on," which what I know you do.

Bye.

You are a very strange person.

I mean seriously, we have actually seen people say here in this very exact thread that Kase trying to control what Yamada wears is justified (and actually cute!) because Kase just finds Yamada so sexy and wonderful. That is in so many words precisely something people say to defend abusive partners. I am not saying Kase is abusive, but you should seriously start raising eyebrows about the author if people start using exactly the same language to defend her that's used to defend abusive partners. Having a screwed-up relationship based around fulfilling unhealthy fantasies, and then portraying it as sweet and nice, is worse because it causes people to interpret the screwed-up relationship positively.

This. I feel like the readers here are a bit delusional and maybe likely to not realize if they ever winded up in an abusive relationship themselves. saying stuff like "Kase is only controlling and possessive about Yamada because she cares about her!" is a very slippery slope. I'm not saying Kase IS an abuser, not at all. I'm just saying if people can't recognize red flags early then it can easily turn abusive in real life situations.

it can easily turn abusive in real life situations.

Expect it's not a real life situation. Stop trying to apply real life logic to manga situation.

"Kase is only controlling and possessive about Yamada because she cares about her!" is a very slippery slope.

Well i mean, it's the truth. She wouldn't act like that if she don't care about her.Again, the comment on the yukata is more likely for herself, given how thirsty she look.She is insecure and think all mens see Yamada like she see her. There is no ill intent behing her attitude, she is just an insecure lesbian.

The chapter was sweet and I love how Kase-san made an effort to went home... but telling Yamada what she can or cannot wear is a no no... they’ve been together for how long and she’s still insecure, okay.

last edited at Oct 4, 2019 10:20PM

A discussion I'm glad to have missed tbh.

But yeah, Kase should probably not be telling Yamada what she can or can't wear.

last edited at Oct 4, 2019 10:22PM

I mean... if your point is that yuri as a genre often has lots of tropes that are creepy when you think about them for five seconds, I totally agree with you.

No, my point is that “creepy is as creepy does.” You seem to regard these tropes as having an independent existence and defined significance outside of the context of their specific deployment in a given story.

Sure, it’s possible to paraphrase or to imagine hypothetical changes to almost any story that will change its tone or thematic import. That doesn’t necessarily make for a convincing reading of any particular story, however.

It's MORE creepy if it's portrayed as sweet and good, not less. That's kinda all that's creepy about it! If this story was about questioning or deconstructing all this stuff, it'd be way less of a problem.

Once again, you assume this behavior (or rather, your particular re-interpretation/rephrasing of it) has an innate value separate from any particular manifestation or depiction of it, so of course you can’t come to any other conclusion than you do.

It’s not how I read texts, because I don’t see it as a very useful or enlightening way to do it. So it seems our mileage certainly does vary.

I legit don't know what this means. Can you be more concrete? What behavior do you mean, specifically? I actually can't see how this is a response to what I said at all. I'm talking a LOT about the depiction, and not so much about the behavior itself... my criticisms are of the whole situation the author keeps repeatedly creating, and Kase's actions WITHIN THAT.

Kase saying the thing about the yukata is creepier than it otherwise would be because of how the author keeps making Yamada a helpless baby who needs to get rescued. It seems likely the author actually believes that Yamada NEEDS her clothing choices regulated by Kase: she really WOULD get harassed by dudes (and need to get rescued again). And that's a shitty thing to put in your story just straight out with no commentary or criticism

Could you say what exactly you mean by "the particular manifestation or depiction of it?" In this specific case. Is it that Yamada isn't bothered by Kase's behavior? Because that doesn't help... it's not a dynamic they've worked out together through communication; the author just keeps making it happen through circumstance. If this was some kind of roleplay thing they'd worked out, where Yamada is a giant baby who falls down and Kase swoops in to protect her from the evil corrupting influences of the world and then they go have lots of sex, that'd be fine. (In fact, this is precisely the way to improve this manga; these same characters struggling to perform their elaborate sex roleplay would be hilarious.)

Is it that this manga just has a cheerful, positive tone? Again, the tone makes it worse, because it's presenting these things unquestioningly. I have no idea what point you're actually trying to make.

This is more off on a limb, but am I seriously the only person who strongly suspects this whole dynamic is, like... the entire reason this thing is being written? Kase is very very weirdly preoccupied by her sexual attraction to Yamada (dude: just fuck her), as if such lustful thoughts will sully her pure innocent girlfriend. And meanwhile, Yamada keeps acting like a five year-old: she's so innocent she can't take care of herself and so Kase needs to step in. Yamada's innocence is, like... a THING, here.

Aah... the Japanese nape fetish.

It's not just a Japanese one.

I have no idea what point you're actually trying to make.

This I believe.

Given your premises about “creepiness” and your assumptions about the author’s intentions and what the author “should” be doing, it’s clear that the more I attempt to make the point, the less intelligible it will be.

I’d say “enjoy,” but . . .

@ karp
EVERYTHING you've said is the truth. Just know that some of us understand and implicitly agree with your interpretation; and as much as I love these two dweebs, I can't help but slightly raise my eyebrows every time an instance of Kase's insecurity rears its ugly head, no matter how subtle. The issue that I have personally, is that this constant white knighting, coupled with latent insecurity issues (let's keep it real) is not being used as an effective character development tool. It just happens as a cheap means of driving the action of the story. If this chick has some serious psychological abandonment issues, layered with borderline psychopathic possessive behavior, I'm here for it! Give me the ugly, gritty, dirty flaws, but you also have to give me the development...sadly, of which there is none.

kickap00 made an excellent observation...the fact that some of us are rationalizing Kase's behavior during her possessive "rants". In retrospect, it really does resemble language used to defend abusers, and it's striking how these commentators are subconsciously admitting there IS a problem by justifying what would otherwise be very alarming behavior (in the real world) to those who recognize the signals of potentially toxic/abusive relationships.

This is a scary thought, but If you really want to think about it...Kase does sound like she has abuser potential. The language she uses is coded which is why it's so polarizing in this thread. It sounds familiar or at the very least something many of us have heard or seen before, whether it be personal experience or dramatization of abuse in the media. And the whole superwoman, at the right place/right time, mystical power she has just adds to the ick factor (possible stalking). Again, the reason (for me at least) why this is so frustrating is because these particular situations just happen for the sake of happening, and is supposed to be innocent and benign but really comes across to some of us as anything but.

I have nothing to say about Yamada, she's the same ole' Yamada more or less, which is exactly the problem.

...TLDR at the same time I do realize that this is but a mere manga. And if anyone is looking for a fully conceptualized meandering of love, life and relationships, this ain't it, you will be sorely disappointed. Like the series for what it is, not what you want it to be.

And now, back to our scheduled infighting.

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 4:56AM

The manga did quiite directly set up the conflict with Kase's overprotectiveness, Yamada's desire to be her own person and also showed the conflict that arose from that during their phone call back in the previous chapters.
That issue hasn't actually been resolved yet, but there is absolutely no reason to think it won't.

I think this chapter in particular was not at all a negative example of Kase's behaviour and extrapolating a negative connotation from previous conflicts is just wrong. Nobody is using rethoric that would be equal to defend an abuser. Kase literally didn't do anything bad in this chapter. People defend it, because it wasn't meant to be part of the conflict that was set up previously.

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 4:53AM

Can Kase please stop this "don't wear this" stuff. The observation that it reads as abusive isn't exactly a stretch, and it's always marring these chapters. It's the kind of thing that results in "dump him" relationship advice for a good reason.

It'd be fine if it was intended as drama and something the characters seriously need to work on, but it's clearly meant as a joke. Which is really worse. It's the equivalent of adding a bit of moldy bread to salad. Sure, the rest of the salad tastes great, but that one bite/page sure is not good. :P

Can you stop mistake abuse for overproteciveness ?

Can you stop being unable to identify basic red flags that any normal person immediately sees?

A simple thing to do is to see their relation as a Mom/Daughter one.

You probably don't realize it, but you used a far more damning description of Yamada and Kases relationship than I ever would have. And that's supposed to be a defense? Yikes.
You've just done more to damn the ship than ten paragraphs of me could ever have done. Well done.

I mean, go on describing Yamada/Kase as this deeply unhealthy, broken ship that you just described them as! Me, I'd rather describe it as a normal ship by an author that is clumsy at writing things and sometimes delivers bad pages. Has a nicer result, personally, but to each their own.

I don't know i try to continue talking about that anyway. I don't see how talking about a Mom/Daughter relation is worse than an abuse relation but apparently it is.

Anyway i don't see how everyone is working up on that when it will probably be forgotten in the next chapter and never be discussed anymore by any of them.

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 7:33AM

People: argue about something in the series
Me: half-reads the posts that are part of the argument, eating peanuts in the corner and offering to share said peanuts with everyone

Kase's preoccupation with regulating Yamada's clothing choices needs to stop. It is the most heteronormative aspect of their frequently het-mirroring relationship, and this case directly calls back to Kase actually insulting Yamada's appearance in order to keep her under control. The "don't wear X for your own good!" was not acceptable in Their Story (and called out as such in that work) and it is not acceptable here - even less so here, in fact, manifesting as it did as Kase negging her significant other.

A simple thing to do is to see their relation as a Mom/Daughter one. Kase is just a mom who is afraid that her daughter can't do anything right and had to back her up everytime when said daughter is just doing her best.

Except that is not their relationship and thus should not be their dynamic. It is not Kase's job to manage and mother Yamada, it is her job as her girlfriend to be an equal partner who respects her choices and doesn't seek to control her for her "own good", let alone for Kase's good:

I think I'm finally starting to realize that Kase's whole "could you please not wear that" schpeal is more for her sake than any jealousy over the boys seeing her.

Someone gets it.

Someone gets that it's even worse than it appears? Making insincere appeals to scary boys as bogeymen to frighten Yamada into doing what she, Kase, wants for her own comfort would be blatant and cynical emotional blackmail in exactly the same way women are forced into rigidly "modest" clothing the world over for the peace of mind of their self-appointed owners. Even I don't think Kase is terrible or selfish enough to be doing that, at least not intentionally.

I don't hate Kase or this manga, but she has a problem that continues to manifest, and pretending otherwise is disingenuous.

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 7:49AM

BV i love you but sometimes you really not helping.

Kase's preoccupation with regulating Yamada's clothing choices needs to stop.

It happen like two times, once in each manga. Why make it pretend she said it everytime Kase saw Yamada.

Except that is not their relationship and thus should not be their dynamic.

And i don't say it should be, i said that how you can interpret their relation right now. Of course Kase need to let some space to Yamada.

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 7:38AM

I think I'm finally starting to realize that Kase's whole "could you please not wear that" schpeal is more for her sake than any jealousy over the boys seeing her.

Someone gets it.

Someone gets that it's even worse than it appears? Making insincere appeals to scary boys as bogeymen to frighten Yamada into doing what she, Kase, wants for her own comfort would be blatant and cynical emotional blackmail in exactly the same way women are forced into rigidly "modest" clothing the world over for the "comfort" of their self-appointed watchdogs. Even I don't think Kase is terrible or selfish enough to be doing that, at least not intentionally.

I don't hate Kase or this manga, but she has a problem that continues to manifest, and pretending otherwise is disingenuous.

Sorry, you are the weirdo who just equated a need to control to heteronormativity, I'm not sure I can take you seriously lol

It's not to frighten Yamada at all, it was a simple justification, an excuse. To jump to blackmail or whatever else is insanely dishonest, considering the worst consequence possible in this scenario is that some sleezy guys will leer at her because she is too pretty/sexy.

The most disinegnious thing would be to equate an embarrassed excuse to the issue that was actually set up chapters ago. This was supposed to be a fun and cute little chapter. The possessive stuff and communication issues were not the focus this time around.

I think I'm finally starting to realize that Kase's whole "could you please not wear that" schpeal is more for her sake than any jealousy over the boys seeing her.

Someone gets it.

Someone gets that it's even worse than it appears? Making insincere appeals to scary boys as bogeymen to frighten Yamada into doing what she, Kase, wants for her own comfort would be blatant and cynical emotional blackmail in exactly the same way women are forced into rigidly "modest" clothing the world over for the "comfort" of their self-appointed watchdogs. Even I don't think Kase is terrible or selfish enough to be doing that, at least not intentionally.

I don't hate Kase or this manga, but she has a problem that continues to manifest, and pretending otherwise is disingenuous.

Sorry, you are the weirdo who just equated a need to control to heteronormativity, I'm not sure I can take you seriously lol

It's not to frighten Yamada at all, it was a simple justification, an excuse. To jump to blackmail or whatever else is insanely dishonest, considering the worst consequence possible in this scenario is that some sleezy guys will leer at her because she is too pretty/sexy.

The most disinegnious thing would be to equate an embarrassed excuse to the issue that was actually set up chapters ago. This was supposed to be a fun and cute little chapter. The possessive stuff and communication issues were not the focus this time around.

One of the primary aspects of heteronormativity is the adherence to gender roles and the traditional gender roles within a heterosexual relationship are the man as dominant provider/protector and the woman as a submissive dependant. There are massive religions devoted to propping up this model. Kase's behaviour and how Yamada is portrayed is reflective of this model imposed onto a WLW relationship. Learn about concepts before you lazily dismiss someone elses completely accurate representation of them.

"If you don't dress more conservatively you'll be harassed by men" is like the go to justification men use to shame women into wearing what they want them to. It ain't a good look regardless of motive and certainly if that motive is just your own comfort.

Sorry, you are the weirdo who just equated a need to control to heteronormativity, I'm not sure I can take you seriously lol

Must take some effort to be so thoroughly embarassingly wrong.

It's not just that Cryssoberyl's comment was entirely correct to begin with. It doesn't take a genius to understand the clear link between 'control' and 'heteronormativity', since the most heteronormative relationship, according to creepy dudes, is one where a man controls a woman. Where the woman is innocent and pure and clueless and pretty much a child, while the dude is the adult that holds all the cards, and has to "protect" said woman from herself.

Now, what were the criticisms of this chapter about again? Oh, right, exactly that very topic. Who'd have thought?
Still cracking me up that the Hyperfan-Defensesquad thought "B-but kase is the mom and yamada the wee kid" actually helped matters, lol.

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 8:31AM

Still cracking me up that the Hyperfan-Defensesquad thought "B-but kase is the mom and yamada the wee kid" actually helped matters, lol.

You won't have any more answer from me so you can save yourself some time and don't try to irritate me for that.

Yamada x Mikawacchi is the new OTP.