^ Honestly, all the matsuri_wins posts you quoted really help solidify my hypothesis that how nice Canadians are really varies from person to person and from situation to situation. The only outlier is Talinight, who never was and never will be nice, not even in the very slightest slightest.

matsuri_wins posted:

Wait what? Lol I accept that both options are valid.

And yet you adamantly argue your option is the only one right, valid and respectful one?

Nope. I am giving reasons for my opinion, including why I think cutting people off when you get rejected, until you are over them, is respectful. Because it restores a balance of power and intentions between you and the other person. But it doesn’t mean it’s what’s right for everyone, and I commented that I wish Sayaka did this lol Idk why the outrage.

matsuri_wins posted:

So I'd never stick around to see the girl I'm into being all lovey dovey with someone else... At least for me it's a matter of self-respect lol Which is apparently what Sayaka lacks, since she is going to keep being friends with Touko despite crushing on the girl for what seems like years.

matsuri_wins posted:

If you had a genuine friendship with someone before you ever liked them, I understand sticking around out of fear of losing that precious feeling, though I still wouldn't recommend; because let's face it, there is plenty of people out there to be purely platonic friends with.

Your posts are full of statements like that, clearly panting the "ditch someone you supposedly care about and find someone else to replace them" as the only real solution and anything else is just not caring about your well-being and self-respect. So yea. At no point you agreed other option is valid, but you personally disagree with it. You were constantly saying your option is better and Sayaka is stupid for not choosing it.

I am not saying my option is better: I am giving the reasoning behind my option. BugDevil has her reasoning too for her options, which she usually provides. It’s too bad she also tends to throw personal attacks along with it, but I am used to it so I tend to ignore :P You gotta take the good with the bad I guess lol

matsuri_wins posted:

Of course it doesn’t meant that every time, but is usually associated with being an orbiter and taking longer to get over that person. The person usually values you less also, because they think you are doing stuff because you like them.

Well. Sounds like you either have really poor understanding of how friendship works or all relationships you were in, were really shallow. Either way, no, that's not how it's. Or I guess it doesn't always happen. It's not like once you confess and get rejected, people automatically think everything you do is out of love or value you less because of it.

And I never said anything like it’s black and white. That’s why I use words like “likely”, “usually” etc. I think you could argue that it doesn’t happen MOST of the time. Yet I would still say it does almost every time on some level, both the suspicion from the unrequiting that the unrequited is doing stuff out of romantic feelings and at least small-degree devaluation. It’s just hard to admit, because we are all kind of idealistic about it. Yet acknowledging that we do these things is helpful, so that we don’t do them while pretending we don’t because “I am such a good person”.

In any case, this grew out of proportion to a simple comment about Sayaka being too understanding. Back to on-topic discussions.

last edited at Jun 10, 2019 12:13AM

Hm, the last volume's special is still not uploaded.... You can only deny this site the Midori x Manaka goodness for so long!

I am not saying my option is better: I am giving the reasoning behind my option. BugDevil has her reasoning too for her options, which she usually provides. It’s too bad she also tends to throw personal attacks along with it, but I am used to it so I tend to ignore :P You gotta take the good with the bad I guess lol

If there ever was a case of the pot calling the kettle black... You always insult many people indirectly (or sometimes actually very directly). You don't get to complain about my observations that aren't even personal attacks yet.

If everyone is making the same observations about you, perhaps it is actually you and not me, ever thought about that?

last edited at Jun 10, 2019 2:39AM

^ Honestly, all the matsuri_wins posts you quoted really help solidify my hypothesis that how nice Canadians are really varies from person to person and from situation to situation.

^ Honestly, all the matsuri_wins posts you quoted really help solidify my hypothesis that how nice Canadians are really varies from person to person and from situation to situation.

(http://i.imgur.com/2bckhCL.jpg)

I remember someone making a meme about how that image you put here shows the Canadian equivalent to "Hail Hydra!".

In any case, things are getting a bit too personal (again), so if we could tone things down a bit that'd be great.

I have no idea what it is about Bloom Into You that attracts so much of this sort of thing.

I have no idea what it is about Bloom Into You that attracts so much of this sort of thing.

Didn’t used to. (I have noticed that generalizations about real-life behavior seem to be a flash-point across the forums—categorical pronouncements about what’s right/wrong/acceptable/not-OK seem to have a way of getting personal awfully quickly.)

last edited at Jun 10, 2019 9:08AM

I have no idea what it is about Bloom Into You that attracts so much of this sort of thing.

Didn’t used to. (I have noticed that generalizations about real-life behavior seem to be a flash-point across the forums—categorical pronouncements about what’s right/wrong/acceptable/not-OK seem to have a way of getting personal awfully quickly.)

That's true, I suppose. I'd just rather keep things from getting too confrontational if possible.

In any case, things are getting a bit too personal (again), so if we could tone things down a bit that'd be great.

I have no idea what it is about Bloom Into You that attracts so much of this sort of thing.

My guess is that it’s because there is nothing about the story development itself to talk about, since it’s solid and predictable at the same time.

Hm, the last volume's special is still not uploaded.... You can only deny this site the Midori x Manaka goodness for so long!

I am not saying my option is better: I am giving the reasoning behind my option. BugDevil has her reasoning too for her options, which she usually provides. It’s too bad she also tends to throw personal attacks along with it, but I am used to it so I tend to ignore :P You gotta take the good with the bad I guess lol

If there ever was a case of the pot calling the kettle black... You always insult many people indirectly (or sometimes actually very directly). You don't get to complain about my observations that aren't even personal attacks yet.

If everyone is making the same observations about you, perhaps it is actually you and not me, ever thought about that?

I have thought about that. I am always very careful to not throw ad hominem attacks at people, and instead discuss ideas. Note that saying I think action X is lack of self-respect, for example, is NOT a personal attack on others. I am not pointing to a specific person and saying “and therefore YOU lack self-respect”. There is a boundary between criticism of an idea and criticism of a person. If we start not having that boundary then nothing can be discussed, because everyone will always be offended and take stuff personally.

When someone then goes back to me and says “because you have idea X, you must be a person with a life or personality like Y”, then yes that’s a personal attack. Even then I don’t recall ever throwing a personal attack back, I only point out the person is doing that. Exception being against some very deranged trolls, but not on this thread.

Anyways. Waiting on next chapter, hope Sayaka has a satisfactory ending better than sucking it up till high school is over.

last edited at Jun 10, 2019 9:31AM

I have no idea what it is about Bloom Into You that attracts so much of this sort of thing.

Didn’t used to. (I have noticed that generalizations about real-life behavior seem to be a flash-point across the forums—categorical pronouncements about what’s right/wrong/acceptable/not-OK seem to have a way of getting personal awfully quickly.)

Excuse me, have you read the first 100 pages of this thread? Because it was much, much worse before.

I have thought about that. I am always very careful to not throw ad hominem attacks at people, and instead discuss ideas.

I also don't want to conintue this any further, but just so you don't forget, you actually insulted many people directly before under the guise of "trolling". Don't think everyone just forgets.
And the fact that you don't notice your indirect attacks is also kinda telling... Well, as long as you actually think about it, that's an improvement. I also got a sharp tongue, but I tend to only reflect my conversation partner's attitude.

Anyways. Waiting on next chapter, hope Sayaka has a satisfactory ending better than sucking it up till high school is over.

Not gonna happen. The novels are ahead and there is nada in high-school.

last edited at Jun 10, 2019 9:52AM

I have no idea what it is about Bloom Into You that attracts so much of this sort of thing.

Didn’t used to. (I have noticed that generalizations about real-life behavior seem to be a flash-point across the forums—categorical pronouncements about what’s right/wrong/acceptable/not-OK seem to have a way of getting personal awfully quickly.)

Excuse me, have you read the first 100 pages of this thread? Because it was much, much worse before.

We did used to have more substantive discussions about content, though. We're kind of past the big twists and most of the conflict and suspense, though, so there's not as much to speculate on these days.

Hey, do you guys think Touko might be contemplating suicide after the play?

I have no idea what it is about Bloom Into You that attracts so much of this sort of thing.

Didn’t used to. (I have noticed that generalizations about real-life behavior seem to be a flash-point across the forums—categorical pronouncements about what’s right/wrong/acceptable/not-OK seem to have a way of getting personal awfully quickly.)

That's true, I suppose. I'd just rather keep things from getting too confrontational if possible.

Also, I'm here, and I'm like 60% asshole in my middle age.

Hey, do you guys think Touko might be contemplating suicide after the play?

If she doesn't, I certainly will in her place after remembering those theories.

last edited at Jun 10, 2019 10:48AM

Excuse me, have you read the first 100 pages of this thread? Because it was much, much worse before.

We did used to have more substantive discussions about content, though. We're kind of past the big twists and most of the conflict and suspense, though, so there's not as much to speculate on these days.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I was coming from.

Hey, do you guys think Touko might be contemplating suicide after the play?

She was right on the brink of heading out to her Final Destination, but after an aquarium date with Yuu, she became High on Life.

As who would not?

Hey, do you guys think Touko might be contemplating suicide after the play?

If she doesn't, I certainly will in her place after remembering those theories.

I lol'd.

I just had a thought. Usually, when you love, you are ready to do everything for a loved one (like Yuu), you want to give her everything and even more, you are happy when she is happy, but Touko’s love showed differently: she only took from the person she loves ...

I just had a thought. Usually, when you love, you are ready to do everything for a loved one (like Yuu), you want to give her everything and even more, you are happy when she is happy, but Touko’s love showed differently: she only took from the person she loves ...

Now that isn't entirely true either, is it now?
Touko helped Yuu with her studies, she gave her the mini-planetarium projector as a present from her trip. And although many of her requests start out selfish, she inadvertently helped Yuu grow as well. Joining the student council, becoming a campaign assistant, acting in the play... those are all things Yuu initially opposed, but helped her become more independant and outgoing.

And most importantly, she taught Yuu how to love.

Now you could say most of these aren't intentional, but a give and take relationship is often not direct. Yuu gets what she needs out of Touko, just like Touko does out of Yuu.

Touko helped Yuu with her studies

Rather, she did it because she wanted to be with her, and this was a good excuse. She did it not because it was important for Yuu to pass the exam well.

she gave her the mini-planetarium projector as a present from her trip.

Yes, this is probably the only moment. But it is not indicative, because gifts can be given to friends.

And although many of her requests start out selfish, she inadvertently helped Yuu grow as well. Joining the student council, becoming a campaign assistant, acting in the play... those are all things Yuu initially opposed, but helped her become more independant and outgoing.

And most importantly, she taught Yuu how to love.

In all these moments, she didn’t care what Yuu wanted. Even when Yuu said she didn’t want to do this, Touko insisted.
Remember the moment when she became agitated when Yuu said she was happy. She didn’t care about Yuu’s feelings, and she herself acknowledges this in Chapter 34 when she apologizes. She herself admits that she used Yuu. Is Touko so selfish that she uses a loved one instead of sacrificing her own interests for her sake?
Just for me, the word "love" = "I want all the best for you." Touko loved, but she didn’t care what a loved one feels ...
I can't remember the moment when she did for Yuu that which doesn't coincide with her interests. Whereas Yuu did this for her many times (speech, joining the student council, the play).
I can only explain this by the fact that Touko's unhealthy psyche turned her love into such an attitude.

Now you could say most of these aren't intentional, but a give and take relationship is often not direct. Yuu gets what she needs out of Touko, just like Touko does out of Yuu.

When Yuu confessed. This is the moment when she really needed a concession from Touko, so that she sacrificed her interests and at least gave Yuu a chance to love. But what did Touko do? Nothing. She didn't think she might hurt Yuu. She really didn't care about her feelings.

Now that isn't entirely true either, is it now?

Probably. It must be so. I would like to see that this is so.

last edited at Jun 12, 2019 2:20AM

Touko helped Yuu with her studies

Rather, she did it because she wanted to be with her, and this was a good excuse. She did it not because it was important for Yuu to pass the exam well.

Now you are just putting intentions into Touko's actions that you cannot possibly prove. There is no reason to think she doesn't want to help Yuu have good grades.

she gave her the mini-planetarium projector as a present from her trip.

Yes, this is probably the only moment. But it is not indicative, because gifts can be given to friends.

Which makes pretty much no difference... especially because Touko was already in love with Yuu.

And although many of her requests start out selfish, she inadvertently helped Yuu grow as well. Joining the student council, becoming a campaign assistant, acting in the play... those are all things Yuu initially opposed, but helped her become more independant and outgoing.

And most importantly, she taught Yuu how to love.

In all these moments, she didn’t care what Yuu wanted. Even when Yuu said she didn’t want to do this, Touko insisted.
Remember the moment when she became agitated when Yuu said she was happy. She didn’t care about Yuu’s feelings, and she herself acknowledges this in Chapter 34 when she apologizes. She herself admits that she used Yuu. Is Touko so selfish that she uses a loved one instead of sacrificing her own interests for her sake?
Just for me, the word "love" = "I want all the best for you." Touko loved, but she didn’t care what a loved one feels ...
I can't remember the moment when she did for Yuu that which doesn't coincide with her interests. Whereas Yuu did this for her many times (speech, joining the student council, the play).
I can only explain this by the fact that Touko's unhealthy psyche turned her love into such an attitude.

We already had this discussion ages ago, matter of fact is that Touko did not intentionally overstep any boundaries and tried her hardest to make Yuu not hate her. She definitely cared about Yuu's feelings way more than you are giving her credit for here.
There is nothing wrong with helping someone in your own self-interest. That is just how humans work... even just wanting the other to be happy is a self-interest.

On the flipside, Yuu didn't do these things just out of utalitarianism either. The reason she even agreed to this "fake relationship" with Touko was entirely selfish. She wanted to learn what love is. She used Touko's affection for that purpose. In the process she saw Touko's issues and due to their connection felt it necessary to help her.

Now you could say most of these aren't intentional, but a give and take relationship is often not direct. Yuu gets what she needs out of Touko, just like Touko does out of Yuu.

When Yuu confessed. This is the moment when she really needed a concession from Touko, so that she sacrificed her interests and at least gave Yuu a chance to love. But what did Touko do? Nothing. She didn't think she might hurt Yuu. She really didn't care about her feelings.

That's so incredibly wrong... Did you not see Touko's anguish? How she tried to reach out but couldn't? Why are you acting as if she was just callously denying Yuu's feelings because she didn't care? This was tied to her insecurities and she tried her best to figure out what to do afterwards. You suggest she just cast aside the thing that has defined her life for so long all of a sudden?
I think you're trying a bit too hard to portray Touko as intentionally cruel here.

last edited at Jun 12, 2019 6:39AM

Touko helped Yuu with her studies

Rather, she did it because she wanted to be with her, and this was a good excuse. She did it not because it was important for Yuu to pass the exam well.

she gave her the mini-planetarium projector as a present from her trip.

Yes, this is probably the only moment. But it is not indicative, because gifts can be given to friends.

And although many of her requests start out selfish, she inadvertently helped Yuu grow as well. Joining the student council, becoming a campaign assistant, acting in the play... those are all things Yuu initially opposed, but helped her become more independant and outgoing.

And most importantly, she taught Yuu how to love.

In all these moments, she didn’t care what Yuu wanted. Even when Yuu said she didn’t want to do this, Touko insisted.
Remember the moment when she became agitated when Yuu said she was happy. She didn’t care about Yuu’s feelings, and she herself acknowledges this in Chapter 34 when she apologizes. She herself admits that she used Yuu. Is Touko so selfish that she uses a loved one instead of sacrificing her own interests for her sake?
Just for me, the word "love" = "I want all the best for you." Touko loved, but she didn’t care what a loved one feels ...
I can't remember the moment when she did for Yuu that which doesn't coincide with her interests. Whereas Yuu did this for her many times (speech, joining the student council, the play).
I can only explain this by the fact that Touko's unhealthy psyche turned her love into such an attitude.

Now you could say most of these aren't intentional, but a give and take relationship is often not direct. Yuu gets what she needs out of Touko, just like Touko does out of Yuu.

When Yuu confessed. This is the moment when she really needed a concession from Touko, so that she sacrificed her interests and at least gave Yuu a chance to love. But what did Touko do? Nothing. She didn't think she might hurt Yuu. She really didn't care about her feelings.

Now that isn't entirely true either, is it now?

Probably. It must be so. I would like to see that this is so.

I’ll enter this discussion, although I’ve always read it from afar x) (Very interesting and entertaining by the way)

I don’t think that Touko is that much horrible and selfish… She showed that she cared a few times. I would say that there are different levels concerning her "selfishness".

For the studies, she didn’t have to help Yuu. You can very well study with someone without helping them, especially if you have to review yourself. Well, it does sound awful, but it’s possible. She even offered her help later, so that Yuu doesn’t use her wish for having a good grade. It could be an excuse, but I don’t believe that it’s only that… I mean, she could find an excuse for which she didn’t have to get involved so much.

Then, I think that Touko was maybe more selfish at the beginning, because she insisted with the student council and the campaign. But at that time, she didn’t know Yuu very well, I don’t think her love was the same (it was just the beginning) and she really didn’t think about it (as if it were her only way to have Yuu more around).

I would dissociate the play from all the other stuff… Touko is a bit as if she had a "professional" side and a "personal" side. Forcing Yuu to act in the play didn't have anything to do with her feelings, because it was her purpose in life. Concerning the play, she doesn't care about others or anything. She just wants it to happen. So, she doesn't let her feelings intervene. (She almost gave up on Yuu in chapter 10, since she didn't want to help her.)

She showed a few times that she cared: she always asks Yuu if she's ok, if she's not pushing her too much, and these kinds of things. Sure it could also be viewed as selfish because "she doesn't want Yuu to hate her". I would say that Touko's level of selfishness depends on Yuu's level of kindness. I don't think we can view these two characters separated: it's all about interactions and what they allow each other. Touko would have taken less if Yuu had given less.

In chapter 34, she doesn't say that she doesn't care about Yuu's feelings (at least not for me): she says that she didn't pay attention to them, it's different. She didn't pay attention to them, because she was only focused on the idea that Yuu couldn't fall in love. Had she known that she actually could, she wouldn't have behaved the same way at all, because she would never want to hurt Yuu. If she really didn't care, she wouldn't have apologized. It would be more like "oh. Well, you're no use for me now. Go away". And she didn't make the concession right away, because she was afraid and still led by some old wound/concept she grew up with (and they are hard to get rid of).

I would think like you at some point though. Kinda. Touko is caring, but her emotional baggage weighed down on her love. That's all. Without it, I think she could be the kind that "wants all the best for her love". But most of the things that are "selfish" above are just either clumsiness, or due to her problems with Mio/her family. At least, that's my take on it!

Now you guys are just gnawing at (one of several) altruism paradoxes. Looked at a certain way, there’s really no such thing as “true” selflessness—people do things for others in order to serve their own needs, even if that need is to be (or to be perceived as being) completely self-sacrificing.

Ultimately, the question is whether the Yuu-Touko relationship is mutually beneficial (I don’t see any way to argue that it hasn’t been) AND (here’s the crux of the entire story, the central conflict that has only now been resolved) Touko has just allowed it to become emotionally reciprocal as well. Her new-found ability to do so is in fact the most important benefit Touko has gained from the relationship.

That, and those red-hot Yuu-smooches, of course.

The one thing that I really, really respect about this story is that the author doesn't use "labels". Not once do I remember any mention of gay, lesbian, homosexual, or even yuri. Sure, there was the occasional, "both girls," but that was it, unless the translations skipped it. (Please correct me if this is the case.) You could take either character, Yuu or Touko, change their sex, and it would still work. I'm a person who dislikes labels. I don't identify with anything, so this story has been a fantastic read for me.

The one thing that I really, really respect about this story is that the author doesn't use "labels". Not once do I remember any mention of gay, lesbian, homosexual, or even yuri. Sure, there was the occasional, "both girls," but that was it, unless the translations skipped it. (Please correct me if this is the case.) You could take either character, Yuu or Touko, change their sex, and it would still work. I'm a person who dislikes labels. I don't identify with anything, so this story has been a fantastic read for me.

While it's true that YagaKimi has universal appeal, because the core idea has no focus on any sexuality in particular, there are just realisticially certain specific issues involved with each different sexuality, so it's not really avoidable in the long run. Nakatani purposely focused on the "What does it mean to be in love?" aspect over any other issue.

Now for the actual labels... Sayaka talked about it once, regarding her first love and girlfriend I think. And I could swear Miyako mentioned it too.

I find this distaste for labels a bit silly though, because regardless of what you call them, they are still the thing. When a woman is worried of whether the other likes women (Miyako) that's because she is a lesbian and Riko might have been straight. She doesn't need to call herself that, we know that's the reason. That's why labels exist and are there. Rather than labels they are definitions of circumstance.
Touko and Yuu might be interchangable gender wise (that is definitely a big unknown), but the same definitely doesn't go for any other couple in the story. Sayaka only likes girls, so turning Touko into a guy would have made her interest drop to zero. Miyako only likes women, so if Riko had been a man... etc. etc.

last edited at Jun 12, 2019 4:39PM

^ Considering that even more hardline of a Midori x Manaka shipper than I am, I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned something about them in your comment.