Why, sorry. I was under the impression that I already made my point so I tried not to be repetitive and just limited to essence of it. But if you insist.

And I'm glad I insisted, as that was a good piece. ^_^
In a debate club, under Paris-style rules, they would have given you a lot of extra points.

Why, sorry. I was under the impression that I already made my point so I tried not to be repetitive and just limited to essence of it. But if you insist.

And I'm glad I insisted, as that was a good piece. ^_^
In a debate club, under Paris-style rules, they would have given you a lot of extra points.

Oh uh... I... thanks? I'm surprised debate clubs are really a thing.

There are so many like them... oh, the list is huge! Trust me on that one, blondes are not the only "fetish" yurigirls go for. ( ͡ ° ͜ʖ ͡ ~) – ✧

Hehe, there are as many fetishes in yuri as there are stars in the sky.

I do admit, though, that blondes (or girls who look like that) with nice bodies seem to be very popular...

And I'm glad I insisted, as that was a good piece. ^_^

There were a number of mistakes in important points, though.

"Sakurako (...) is outrageously social, liked by everyone and could get literally any guy to fall for her if she even remotely tried (but we know that she was lesbian from the start)." LOL, noooooo, not even close. Even at 20, she looks like a tiny middle schooler. She doesn't have the looks to make men fall for her at first sight (Humbert Humbert excepted). "Liked by everyone" means that the girls friend her, and the boys friend-zone her. She's not a seductress; in (sad) fact, a girl like her has to work a lot and go through many rejections to finally find herself a guy.

"Sakurako is not out of Kasumi's reach socially at all. Literally the only thing that interferes with them being a good match from the start is that they are both girls." And that they are in different leagues. Social gaps are not as monstruous in our time as they were in the 19th-century (today, in Europe, royal princes marry commoner girls all the time) but there are leagues when it comes to dating. Kasumi in mid school was constantly being chased by besotted boys and girls, as shown in flashbacks (her school friends had to act as shields to help her deflect these pests); Sakurako has never been chased by anyone in her life, as shown in the fact that it never was shown otherwise, lol. Kasumi has what it takes to become a wealthy man's trophy wife (mainly, the looks); Sakurako doesn't.

"Being good of heart and having house working skills are such unbelievably generic qualities that they barely even bear mention for a main character, but let's check those point off. They indeed apply to Sakurako. Hard worker? I suppose, if we just take her accomplishments as "hard work" then sure." Generic, yes; but a child of privilege from a high class family would not have those qualities. Such one would instead have money, power, and influence -- and somebody in Kasumi's shoes would most likely go for that, preferring those advantages to virtues like goodness and diligence.

"Kasumi is the real issue here. None of those points apply... like at all. The only thing making her stand out from the crowd or desirable on first glance are her looks." Only thing, lol. You make it sound like it's not a big deal. In fact, it is. For Sakurako too.
You yourself state it later: "Sakurako of course appreciates Kasumi's beauty and grace, but she also very much loves her for her moments of kindness and affection, the way she completely goes along with the flow and that she acts like a pet to her sometimes." That's more like it. But you should realize that this is entirely within formula. The MC girl in a dime novel is first attracted to the leading man because of his coolness and good looks, but eventually falls in love with him because of the many virtues and qualities she discovers inside him. Sakurako's feelings develop like that, too.

"The fact is this: Sakurako does not win Kasumi's heart with her houseworking skills (those are just a bonus). What truly got her is that face when she welcomes her back. The feeling of having someone who always will be there for her. Someone that is easy to live with. Someone to share a meal with. Kasumi very much appreciates Sakurako's looks too (fixation on hair in particular)." And this is the other side of the formula. For the alpha male gentleman to fall in love with the plain poor girl, I mean in a plausible way, something must happen that makes him notice her, and then pushes them to spend time together. This is necessary to give the MC girl an edge over all the other girls out there. In this case, it's the 3 years Sakurako and Kasumi spent sharing a room and living as a married couple. It was pure luck that got them together for 3 years (well, luck and the landlady's tricks, lol), and in those 3 years Kasumi learned to appreciate Sakurako.
One could wonder: what would have happened if some other girl had roomed with Kasumi instead of Sakurako? Would Kasumi have fallen in love with this other lass?
And the answer is: maybe, maybe not. There's no way to know for sure.
But the one thing we can say with absolute certainty is this: if she had had a different roommate, then Kasumi wouldn't have fallen for Sakurako. They would have been school friends, nothing more. Without those 3 years of conjugal bliss in the boarding house, sharing a room and sharing a bed, their relationship wouldn't be what it is, and the story would never have progressed the way it did.

@BugDevil nice summary of your argument.

Might be a good point to agree to disagree and walk away though.

last edited at May 21, 2019 6:06PM

Might be a good point to agree to disagree and walk away though.

I'm only going to agree with this sentence because I'm too sleepy to continue caring for that particular convo. Or anything, for that matter, but that's beside the point here.

last edited at May 21, 2019 6:16PM

I can't believe you just called Fujishiro slutty... jesus.

Oh? You don't approve of the term? Interesting. I myself wasn't especially shocked or saw any problem with it, when I first read that post.
Sure, slutty in general use is not a nice word. But look at how she was in the beginning. She was dating that boy not because she had special feelings for him, but because he was the perfect picture of a dream boyfriend - the sort of arm candy that makes other girls crazy jelly. When she finds that he's a cheater, and he breaks up with her, she cries because of humiliation, not heartbreak. And, since their relationship was like this, we have to ask: what did she have to do, in the first place, to get him to date her? How much did she put out for him? I mean, coz he sure wasn't dating her for her nice personality. >_< As he himself stated: he only saw her as a piece of ass on the side...

last edited at May 21, 2019 10:59PM

LOL, noooooo, not even close. Even at 20, she looks like a tiny middle schooler. She doesn't have the looks to make men fall for her at first sight (Humbert Humbert excepted). "Liked by everyone" means that the girls friend her, and the boys friend-zone her. She's not a seductress; in (sad) fact, a girl like her has to work a lot and go through many rejections to finally find herself a guy.

Unbelievably subjective. This kind of attitude just makes me sad. She might not be your preference, but Sakurako is very pretty in a different way from Kasumi. I also never said she would make guys fall for her on first sight. That's a silly trope. The point is that she is the type of gal that would easily get attention and interest if she wanted it. Many guys like smart girls and girls that are competent in the housewife area. Your completely superficial argument is appalling.
You make a completely unsubstantiated assumption that Sakurako gets friendzoned by guys. Give me proof or stop projecting. We know Sakurako is a lesbian whose ideal type was someone like Kasumi, so she naturally would never make a move on guys and easily friendzone them.

And that they are in different leagues. Social gaps are not as monstruous in our time as they were in the 19th-century (today, in Europe, royal princes marry commoner girls all the time) but there are leagues when it comes to dating. Kasumi in mid school was constantly being chased by besotted boys and girls, as shown in flashbacks (her school friends had to act as shields to help her deflect these pests); Sakurako has never been chased by anyone in her life, as shown in the fact that it never was shown otherwise, lol. Kasumi has what it takes to become a wealthy man's trophy wife (mainly, the looks); Sakurako doesn't.

You base leagues entirely on the amount of boys salivating after a girl. No wonder your arguments rubbed me the wrong way. There is no social gap between Kasumi and Sakurako, other than Kasumi being super unsocial. If anything in a social circle, Kasumi falls far behind.

Generic, yes; but a child of privilege from a high class family would not have those qualities. Such one would instead have money, power, and influence -- and somebody in Kasumi's shoes would most likely go for that, preferring those advantages to virtues like goodness and diligence.

Proof: You said so.
Jeez, this is depressingly off kilter for the sake of your argument. Saying wealthy girls can't have good hearts or be good at hourse work, acting like Kasumi is in any way special...
I already said my part on what Kasumi actually likes and how she never had an interest in romance, so she would never have picked anyone period. Until you can make an argument for why "someone like Kasumi" (aka a lazy almost aromantic hermit) would go for that, I'll have to dismiss this.

Only thing, lol. You make it sound like it's not a big deal. In fact, it is. For Sakurako too.
You yourself state it later: "Sakurako of course appreciates Kasumi's beauty and grace, but she also very much loves her for her moments of kindness and affection, the way she completely goes along with the flow and that she acts like a pet to her sometimes." That's more like it. But you should realize that this is entirely within formula. The MC girl in a dime novel is first attracted to the leading man because of his coolness and good looks, but eventually falls in love with him because of the many virtues and qualities she discovers inside him. Sakurako's feelings develop like that, too.

It isn't a big deal. Looks are one factor of many. I literally said that's the only point that applies, so I already gave it to you. It's still just one factor.
Uhuh... if you make your criteria any broader any story that was ever written may fit into that formula eventually, including horror, crime and sci-fi novels. If you make every part of your formula an unknown variable, surprisingly they all suddenly fit. Let me tell you something, initial attraction and steadfast love are almost always portrayed like that, because that's how it work in real life. That is how 99% of romances ragardless of genre or "formula" work. It's not unique enough to even be relevant.

And this is the other side of the formula. For the alpha male gentleman to fall in love with the plain poor girl, I mean in a plausible way, something must happen that makes him notice her, and then pushes them to spend time together. This is necessary to give the MC girl an edge over all the other girls out there. In this case, it's the 3 years Sakurako and Kasumi spent sharing a room and living as a married couple. It was pure luck that got them together for 3 years (well, luck and the landlady's tricks, lol), and in those 3 years Kasumi learned to appreciate Sakurako.
One could wonder: what would have happened if some other girl had roomed with Kasumi instead of Sakurako? Would Kasumi have fallen in love with this other lass?

Coincidence is an important part of any romance and learning to appreciate the girl is a requirement for any romance novel. Could you make your qualifications any broader? lol
Kasumi pretty much liked Sakurako right away, her lack of romantic interest simply meant it was a slow process to realize what that meant. The context is starkly different from your dime novels.

And yes, it is entirely possible that Kasumi could have found someone else that she saw something in. Making Kasumi out to be shallow does not work.

And the answer is: maybe, maybe not. There's no way to know for sure.
But the one thing we can say with absolute certainty is this: if she had had a different roommate, then Kasumi wouldn't have fallen for Sakurako. They would have been school friends, nothing more. Without those 3 years of conjugal bliss in the boarding house, sharing a room and sharing a bed, their relationship wouldn't be what it is, and the story would never have progressed the way it did.

Astute observation. Just irrelevant to the point. If people never meet they don't fall in love. If people don't spend time together they can't form a relationship. This is an empty statement that doesn't support either side of the debate.

@BugDevil nice summary of your argument.

Might be a good point to agree to disagree and walk away though.

I would've liked that... but I don't like when people say I'm wrong based on such superficial beliefs.

I can't believe you just called Fujishiro slutty... jesus.

Oh? You don't approve of the term? Interesting. I myself wasn't especially shocked or saw any problem with it, when I first read that post.
Sure, slutty in general use is not a nice word. But look at how she was in the beginning. She was dating that boy not because she had special feelings for him, but because he was the perfect picture of a dream boyfriend - the sort of arm candy that makes other girls crazy jelly. When she finds that he's a cheater, and he breaks up with her, she cries because of humiliation, not heartbreak. And, since their relationship was like this, we have to ask: what did she have to do, in the first place, to get him to date her? How much did she put out for him? I mean, coz he sure wasn't dating her for her nice personality. >_< As he himself stated: he only saw her as a piece of ass on the side...

Trying to date someone because you think you are a good match, because he seems to be the nice popular guy, does not make you a slut. She didn't sell her body and neither did she just desire the boy for his dick. Her logic was flawed because of her circumstances, but she was genuinly heartbroken.
Clearly they didn't get anywhere physically, because they had been dating only for a short time and he even said that there are easier girls around that actually let him do more. He found her annoying (which in douchebag lingo means "you didnt put out and were constantly on about your feelings crap"). I knew my fair share of guys like that. Ugh.

last edited at May 22, 2019 2:18AM

I can't believe BugDevil and WhiteRose have been debating for several dozen chapters already, when everyone knows that the Bug menace has already shot down over a million Yuri ships and executed the survivors at Klendathu.

^ I swear, if I see yet another post of this convo by the two of them, I'm copying the entire conversation between the two, quote it in several comments on Dynasty Cafe, and tell them to move it there before Nezchan comes to make them shut up.

^ C’mon, BV—the argument may have become a little repetitive, but it’s gotten back on-topic, using specific evidence from the text, and is only barely testy (so far) around the edges. Gotta keep the criteria consistent.

I know you like to keep us constantly apprised of your emotional state, and I personally haven’t needed any further development of the topic for some time, but the principals have basically been behaving themselves.

If just “being tedious” were a bannable offense, the Dynasty Forum halls would be echoing caverns of emptiness.

last edited at May 22, 2019 7:40AM

I can't believe BugDevil and WhiteRose have been debating for several dozen chapters already, when everyone knows that the Bug menace has already shot down over a million Yuri ships and executed the survivors at Klendathu.

Actually this is an open topic with at least 4 participants and I have mostly been replying to Nene and Fairypixies24 for a while now... But we wouldn't wanna get hung up on silly details, now would we?

As much as I like Starship Troopers, I'm more of a computer bug than an insect. I only destroy virtual yuri ships.

last edited at May 22, 2019 7:52AM

^^ Fair points, but those don't stop me from finding that last sentence of yours funny for some reason.

EDIT:
That said, my posts on the last two pages may be more warranted for going on Dynasty Café, so my laugh suddenly turned into a nervous one.

last edited at May 22, 2019 7:56AM

^ C’mon, BV—the argument may have become a little repetitive, but it’s gotten back on-topic, using specific evidence from the text, and is only barely testy (so far) around the edges. Gotta keep the criteria consistent.

I know you like to keep us constantly apprised of your emotional state, and I personally haven’t needed any further development of the topic for some time, but the principals have basically been behaving themselves.

If just “being tedious” were a bannable offense, the Dynasty Forum halls would be echoing caverns of emptiness.

It's certainly what the military folks call a "target-rich environment". But yeah, for now I'm fine with the walls of text given we're between chapters and it's on-topic at least. Plus, nobody else seems to be having their conversations being disrupted by the huge posts taking up all the air in the room, so I'm okay with it.

^ I'll see myself out of the "A Room for Two" forum for the next 3 or 4 days.

^ C’mon, BV—the argument may have become a little repetitive, but it’s gotten back on-topic, using specific evidence from the text, and is only barely testy (so far) around the edges. Gotta keep the criteria consistent.

Actually, the argument has been progressing... and, after reading the last posts, I think we have now the core of the problem in sight. It's like this: some people just can't stand the idea that, in our world, certain individuals are considered more beautiful or attractive than others. It goes against political correctness, and for these people the mere idea of challenging political correctness is absolutely insufferable. A social warrior makes their holy duty to fight the demons of "lookism" and "objectification" wherever they find them, never mind the context, never mind reality, never mind how ridiculous or absurd this moralizing seems. Oh, and, since they are at it, they will also crusade against the idea that a wealthy man will easily attract swarms of girls who find the allure of money irresistible, while a poor man (especially if he's poor and unprepossessing) will find that it's much more difficult for him. Political correctness hates these simple facts of life, and will try to deny them every time they are met... with the result that pc warriors who try to talk about our world or our media usually sound so completely outlandish you'd think they are talking about planet Mars.

This is especially true when talking about Japanese manga. Manga is created by Japanese authors for the Japanese audience, and yuri manga is made by Japanese yuri authors for Japanese yuri lovers. Yuri manga is not made for American lesbians. Nobody in Japan who is involved in manga creation gives a flaming rat's ass about the petty peeves of feminists, social warriors and pc-minded people in America. That's why trying to smash manga with the self-righteous moralizing of American political correctness is especially ridiculous and absurd. Well, unless, of course, you have an agenda to push and you don't care how you sound to the people who listen; in that case, your job is done as long as you keep endlessly repeating the same speeches no matter how many times people explain your errors to you. Look at this scene:

There are two girls. One is incredibly beautiful. How do we know? Well, first, because of the way she's drawn, following the manga codes for feminine beauty. Second, because of the sparkles around her, meaning that her beauty is dazzling to those who look. Third, because the other girl turns SD when she sees her, indicating her shock in presence of such beauty. Fourth, because the heart of this other girl starts beating wildly in arousal. Fifth, because this other girl wonders if the one in front of her comes from another species, like a Tolkien elf, gifted with otherworldly beauty. Sixth, because the author FUCKING TELLS US SO in a caption with the narration: "An incredibly beautiful girl arrived!" And thus, we know from the very beginning that this story is about a girl who is incredibly beautiful and a girl who is not so... or, more precisely, who is short, thin, flat-chested, cute in a childlike or puppylike way, and very much the epitome of the kind-hearted but plain-looking female MC most Japanese girl readers can identify with. And it goes without saying that any normal Western reader is, or should be, perfectly able to do as their Asian counterparts. In other words: love the tale of how a humble MC girl wins the heart of a beauty who could have married a millionaire, and then enjoy without qualms as the story lets us relish the vicarious pleasure of their lovey-dovey bliss. What should we make, then, of someone who suffers and agonizes while reading this manga, so much that they deny the facts in front of their eyes? Who launches into a logorrhea of bland moralizing where they denounce reality for failing to conform to their particular scripture, and then accuses of subjectivity (of all things) those who understand the workings of Japanese fiction, take this manga at face value and accurately categorize it as a lovely wish-fulfillment story in the grand tradition of romantic fantasy that goes back to the early 19th century?

Oh, and, since they are at it, they will also crusade against the idea that a wealthy man will easily attract swarms of girls who find the allure of money irresistible, while a poor man (especially if he's poor and unprepossessing) will find that it's much more difficult for him.

Lol, and yet even the most airheaded girl knows it...
Like Marilyn Monroe as Lorelei Lee: "Don't you know that a man being rich is like a girl being pretty? You wouldn't marry them just because of that, but my goodness, does it help!"

This is especially true when talking about Japanese manga. Manga is created by Japanese authors for the Japanese audience, and yuri manga is made by Japanese yuri authors for Japanese yuri lovers. Yuri manga is not made for American lesbians. Nobody in Japan who is involved in manga creation gives a flaming rat's ass about the petty peeves of feminists, social warriors and pc-minded people in America. That's why trying to smash manga with the self-righteous moralizing of American political correctness is especially ridiculous and absurd.

This is actually a pet peeve of mine against certain American so-called experts on manga (cough Erica Friedman cough). Lambasting manga because it doesn't follow your political agenda and doesn't cater to the sensibilities of American lesbian feminists, which is what these reviewers do, is beyond moronic -- and leads to rejecting 95% of the yuri manga out there. But I have written extensively on the subject in the past, so I'll say no more now.

https://i.ibb.co/7N0X6dw/Clipboard01.jpg

There are two girls. One is incredibly beautiful. How do we know? Well, first, because of the way she's drawn, following the manga codes for feminine beauty. Second, because of the sparkles around her, meaning that her beauty is dazzling to those who look. Third, because the other girl turns SD when she sees her, indicating her shock in presence of such beauty. Fourth, because the heart of this other girl starts beating wildly in arousal. Fifth, because this other girl wonders if the one in front of her comes from another species, like a Tolkien elf, gifted with otherworldly beauty. Sixth, because the author FUCKING TELLS US SO in a caption with the narration: "An incredibly beautiful girl arrived!"

Great writing. Instant classic. Well done!

What should we make, then, of someone who suffers and agonizes while reading this manga, so much that they deny the facts in front of their eyes? Who launches into a logorrhea of bland moralizing where they denounce reality for failing to conform to their particular scripture?

I had to check the dictionary to make sure...

Logorrhea: pathologically excessive and often incoherent talkativeness or wordiness.

Wow, harsh. But there is some of that in her last message... I mean, it's one thing to preach against the evils of the world (or what you perceive as evils), it's another thing to claim that those evils cannot exist because they clash with your notions of good and right.
When you try to deny that there are widely-accepted criteria of beauty in our world, that beautiful people are more successful at many things than those who are not, and that wealthy men tend to have an easier time with women than the poor and destitute, your whole argument is diving head first into stark raving incoherence, all right.

And just when I said I wasn't actually arguing with White Rose. Oh how cruel irony can be.

Actually, the argument has been progressing... and, after reading the last posts, I think we have now the core of the problem in sight. It's like this: some people just can't stand the idea that, in our world, certain individuals are considered more beautiful or attractive than others. It goes against political correctness, and for these people the mere idea of challenging political correctness is absolutely insufferable. A social warrior makes their holy duty to fight the demons of "lookism" and "objectification" wherever they find them, never mind the context, never mind reality, never mind how ridiculous or absurd this moralizing seems. Oh, and, since they are at it, they will also crusade against the idea that a wealthy man will easily attract swarms of girls who find the allure of money irresistible, while a poor man (especially if he's poor and unprepossessing) will find that it's much more difficult for him. Political correctness hates these simple facts of life, and will try to deny them every time they are met... with the result that pc warriors who try to talk about our world or our media usually sound so completely outlandish you'd think they are talking about planet Mars.

What a bunch of hot air.
Not a single person in this entire conversation said anything about political correctness except you.
You just happen to be someone who loves to objectify and project very hard on stories, but that is really none of my business. It's very typical for you to demonize anyone who thinks differently from you though.

I'm not nearly dense enough not to realize that this is an attack towards me. So let me just stop you there. I neither advocate for political correctness nor ever would make the stupid as hell argument that there aren't millions of gold digger girls out there. I also don't see the relevance of either to the discussion, so congrats on soundly beating that mental construct you yourself created?

This is especially true when talking about Japanese manga. Manga is created by Japanese authors for the Japanese audience, and yuri manga is made by Japanese yuri authors for Japanese yuri lovers. Yuri manga is not made for American lesbians. Nobody in Japan who is involved in manga creation gives a flaming rat's ass about the petty peeves of feminists, social warriors and pc-minded people in America. That's why trying to smash manga with the self-righteous moralizing of American political correctness is especially ridiculous and absurd. Well, unless, of course, you have an agenda to push and you don't care how you sound to the people who listen; in that case, your job is done as long as you keep endlessly repeating the same speeches no matter how many times people explain your errors to you.

I'm neither American, nor do I care for American moralizing. You are the one who pushes your own delusions/agendas the most in this entire thread ("they were dating and having sex since chapter 1" or "the pilot is actually canon" and things like it come to mind). The irony is palpable and not funny.
The only assertions more far-fetched and projecting are the ones from people who actually believe this is still Subtext.

There are two girls. One is incredibly beautiful. How do we know? Well, first, because of the way she's drawn, following the manga codes for feminine beauty. Second, because of the sparkles around her, meaning that her beauty is dazzling to those who look. Third, because the other girl turns SD when she sees her, indicating her shock in presence of such beauty. Fourth, because the heart of this other girl starts beating wildly in arousal. Fifth, because this other girl wonders if the one in front of her comes from another species, like a Tolkien elf, gifted with otherworldly beauty. Sixth, because the author FUCKING TELLS US SO in a caption with the narration: "An incredibly beautiful girl arrived!" And thus, we know from the very beginning that this story is about a girl who is incredibly beautiful and a girl who is not so... or, more precisely, who is short, thin, flat-chested, cute in a childlike or puppylike way, and very much the epitome of the kind-hearted but plain-looking female MC most Japanese girl readers can identify with. And it goes without saying that any normal Western reader is, or should be, perfectly able to do as their Asian counterparts. In other words: love the tale of how a humble MC girl wins the heart of a beauty who could have married a millionaire, and then enjoy without qualms as the story lets us relish the vicarious pleasure of their lovey-dovey bliss. What should we make, then, of someone who suffers and agonizes while reading this manga, so much that they deny the facts in front of their eyes? Who launches into a logorrhea of bland moralizing where they denounce reality for failing to conform to their particular scripture, and then accuses of subjectivity (of all things) those who understand the workings of Japanese fiction, take this manga at face value and accurately categorize it as a lovely wish-fulfillment story in the grand tradition of romantic fantasy that goes back to the early 19th century?

Oof, that was a magnificent walltext of nothingness.
One sentence would have been enough here: Kasumi sure is pretty.
You can word it as flowery as you wish, but your words don't carry any more sway that way. You are ignoring all context to suit your agenda. It's blatantly obvious.

Sakurako is regularly portrayed as pretty and "sparkly" as well. Her cuteness is indeed mentioned often, which also elevates her from being "plain". She isn't short compared to 90% of the girls in this story either. You are just letting your preferences do the talking as usual. Yes, Kasumi is called beautiful all the time, especially by Sakurako and that is a defining characteristic of her design. Nobody has ever denied that.

So. Much. Projecting.
"Humble girl", how is Sakurako humble? How is she relatable or average aside from her allegedly plain appearance? Everything that actually makes her relatable you ignore, for the obtuse idea of a "kind-hearted plain-looking protagonist".
In turn you ignore all the relatable aspects of Kasuimi that indeed most Japanese or Western girls would also see in themselves. Unless of course, you are just furthering your agenda. Oh what a shock.

"Normal reader", "logorrhea", "denounce reality" "suffers and agonizes while reading this manga" such pathetic jabs are so common in your writing, which only reminds me of how hypocritical your accusations of me "attacking" you in the past really were. Indirect speech does not mask your contemptful attitude.

Self-serving descriptions like "a beauty who could have married a millionaire" are so contrived. That is a cute assertion with zero relevance or proof. As Kasumi herself is not rich or upper class or popular beyond looks, she is actually the "poor commoner MC" that would be elevated by her rich and upper class desired.

Your understanding of Japanese fiction only goes as far as it suits you. You have been wrong many times before and will be many times again. Your constant need for validation is self-evident in every post you make. "Us, who understand this medium" "We know", "This is the correct way to see it for every normal reader". Always addressing other people to talk about the one you actually mean indirectly. These are all signs of extreme insecurity and a need to be acknowledged as correct. Work on that.

Henceforth I will ignore any of your word-salads unless they have a point beyond saying "Nuh-uh, I don't like this and everyone needs to agree with me".

EDIT: To think all that bile came just from me stating that Sakurako could also be seen as pretty... sheesh.

last edited at May 22, 2019 5:45PM

I can't believe BugDevil and WhiteRose have been debating for several dozen chapters already, when everyone knows that the Bug menace has already shot down over a million Yuri ships and executed the survivors at Klendathu.

Really? I have discussed with her at some length... oh, two times, so far. The first time, the discussion ended when Nezchan told her to shut up. The second time, she ended up apologizing to me. I don't think she's such a terror.

For what I've seen, her main method of debate is drowning the opposition under an ocean of noise. She keeps posting bricks of text, repeating herself again and again, not caring if her points have been debunked, until everyone else is too tired or too bored to go on. My experience from other forums is that, when you meet someone like this, the best thing to do is to start ignoring them the very moment they start rehashing old posts - and focus on having a pleasant conversation with those people who post comments that you actually find interesting.

Really? I have discussed with her at some length... oh, two times, so far. The first time, the discussion ended when Nezchan told her to shut up. The second time, she ended up apologizing to me. I don't think she's such a terror.

For what I've seen, her main method of debate is drowning the opposition under an ocean of noise. She keeps posting bricks of text, repeating herself again and again, not caring if her points have been debunked, until everyone else is too tired or too bored to go on. My experience from other forums is that, when you meet someone like this, the best thing to do is to start ignoring them the very moment they start rehashing old posts - and focus on having a pleasant conversation with those people who post comments that you actually find interesting.

Unlike your walltexts that repeat the same exact message 10 times in different words?
Unlike the points you insist on that were debunked already?

Ignoring what you don't like and only talking to people who agree with you: AKA echo chamber.

Reply to a post that is older than your last one, clearly intended as another indirect attack, dismissing my reply and trying to show it this way.

Interpreting the other poster's/mods words automatically as negative towards me, but benevolent towards you. Portraying past events wrongly to suit you and ignoring your own part in the issue.

You are see-through and not clever. You will no doubt ignore this and that's okay. I just want you to know that me, and I reckon, most people can tell what you are doing.

last edited at May 22, 2019 5:54PM

Oh, and, since they are at it, they will also crusade against the idea that a wealthy man will easily attract swarms of girls who find the allure of money irresistible, while a poor man (especially if he's poor and unprepossessing) will find that it's much more difficult for him.

Lol, and yet even the most airheaded girl knows it...
Like Marilyn Monroe as Lorelei Lee: "Don't you know that a man being rich is like a girl being pretty? You wouldn't marry them just because of that, but my goodness, does it help!"

Haha, good quote. I don't recall which movie it is from, though. (Lorelei Lee? What kinda name is that? Half German Aryan, half Southern Confederate?)

This is especially true when talking about Japanese manga. Manga is created by Japanese authors for the Japanese audience, and yuri manga is made by Japanese yuri authors for Japanese yuri lovers. Yuri manga is not made for American lesbians. Nobody in Japan who is involved in manga creation gives a flaming rat's ass about the petty peeves of feminists, social warriors and pc-minded people in America. That's why trying to smash manga with the self-righteous moralizing of American political correctness is especially ridiculous and absurd.

This is actually a pet peeve of mine against certain American so-called experts on manga (cough Erica Friedman cough). Lambasting manga because it doesn't follow your political agenda and doesn't cater to the sensibilities of American lesbian feminists, which is what these reviewers do, is beyond moronic -- and leads to rejecting 95% of the yuri manga out there. But I have written extensively on the subject in the past, so I'll say no more now.

I remember. I think that was the longest piece of text I have ever seen in this forum since I am a member - which, admittedly, is not so long, only about a year.
Mind you, the difference between your post and a typical brick of text is that your post was actually full of good, detailed information about a subject that interested me a lot (and should probably interest anyone who wants to better understand Japan and manga). I call that an essay, rather than an ugly brick.

https://i.ibb.co/7N0X6dw/Clipboard01.jpg

There are two girls. One is incredibly beautiful. How do we know? Well, first, because of the way she's drawn, following the manga codes for feminine beauty. Second, because of the sparkles around her, meaning that her beauty is dazzling to those who look. Third, because the other girl turns SD when she sees her, indicating her shock in presence of such beauty. Fourth, because the heart of this other girl starts beating wildly in arousal. Fifth, because this other girl wonders if the one in front of her comes from another species, like a Tolkien elf, gifted with otherworldly beauty. Sixth, because the author FUCKING TELLS US SO in a caption with the narration: "An incredibly beautiful girl arrived!"

Great writing. Instant classic. Well done!

Why, thanks. (blush) I wrote that in two minutes, under feelings of extreme exasperation. I didn't even reread it before posting. It's good to know that it's been appreciated.

What should we make, then, of someone who suffers and agonizes while reading this manga, so much that they deny the facts in front of their eyes? Who launches into a logorrhea of bland moralizing where they denounce reality for failing to conform to their particular scripture?

I had to check the dictionary to make sure...

Logorrhea: pathologically excessive and often incoherent talkativeness or wordiness.

It's a very useful word. ^_^

Wow, harsh. But there is some of that in her last message... I mean, it's one thing to preach against the evils of the world (or what you perceive as evils), it's another thing to claim that those evils cannot exist because they clash with your notions of good and right.
When you try to deny that there are widely-accepted criteria of beauty in our world, that beautiful people are more successful at many things than those who are not, and that wealthy men tend to have an easier time with women than the poor and destitute, your whole argument is diving head first into stark raving incoherence, all right.

Yes.
I can tell you the exact moment I realized she had gone off the deep end - it's when she wrote this: "Sakurako could get literally any guy to fall for her if she even remotely tried." A person who writes something like this is out of touch with reality... or, at least, has gone completely out of touch with the reality of the manga we are talking about, and is now lost in her own little world, writing about the headcanons in her brain. In the real world, if someone starts talking in this way, you back away slowly and get out of the room. In a web forum, you start talking with someone else instead.

After all, most of us have lives outside the internet - and there is only so much time we can give to these things. It's better to invest it wisely.

Case in point.

^ C’mon, BV—the argument may have become a little repetitive, but it’s gotten back on-topic, using specific evidence from the text, and is only barely testy (so far) around the edges. Gotta keep the criteria consistent.

Actually, the argument has been progressing... and, after reading the last posts, I think we have now the core of the problem in sight. It's like this: some people just can't stand the idea that, in our world, certain individuals are considered more beautiful or attractive than others. It goes against political correctness, and for these people the mere idea of challenging political correctness is absolutely insufferable. A social warrior makes their holy duty to fight the demons of "lookism" and "objectification" wherever they find them, never mind the context, never mind reality, never mind how ridiculous or absurd this moralizing seems.

White Rose, I want to thank you for your summary. Tbh I didn't read BugDevil's huge wall of text, I just scrolled down until it was over and thought to myself that I would return later to post a tl;dr if there were no further comments. You see, the way I saw things, there was no need for BugDevil to write anything lengthy in reply to my message. All I did was point out her mistakes and correct her in all the parts she had gotten wrong. The way I saw things, this needed no long answer, just a few words of thanks for setting her straight. So when I found this humongous wall of text of hers sitting in the thread and posing as a reply I immediately guessed (and it turns out I was right) that she was annoyed rather than grateful for my rightings and had decided to bombard me with random blah in retaliation. And I didn't feel like going through something like that. And now that I have read your summary and know exactly what I missed, I can sigh in relief and tell to myself: "Boy, was I right!"

Political correctness is a plague when talking about manga or old dime novels or anything that exists outside of the boundaries of modern censored talk. Any social warrior wannabe will take up arms as soon as they hear that someone, somewhere, has created or is creating works of fiction where the pc dogma is not respected. Romantic fantasies written by and for girls have naturally assumed for the last two centuries that the most desirable mates are the ones who tower over the common folk in terms of looks, or wealth, or influence, or any of a half dozen other qualities perceived as alpha attributes. But if you tell this to a pc crusader, they will start frothing at the mouth and crying at the wrongness of it all. And then go on a rant on how we are all equally beautiful, lookism is bad, alphaism is bad, and how dare you objectify human beings according to their appearance when the really important things are inside, and anyone can be whatever they want, blah blah blah. Not only this sort of tripe doesn't hold water in the real world, but, even if you take it as only a theory on how an ideal utopian world would or should work, it's utterly pointless to invoke it when it comes to fiction and fantasy. Take your pc doctrine and go try to change the world if you want to, pal, but don't mess with books and comics and games and other works of fiction! Otherwise, we can only conclude that you're unable to tell fantasy from reality.

You're most likely right, Rose, about how to deal with these inconveniences: time is valuable, don't waste it on people who don't want to listen.

last edited at May 23, 2019 6:06PM

^^
OK--what I said before? That statement is no longer operative.

BV, wait for me . . .

Fairypixie24 posted:

You're most likely right, Rose, about how to deal with these inconveniences: time if valuable, don't waste it on people who don't want to listen.

Said the person who doesn't even bother to read posts responding to them on the basic of "it's probably boring and wrong". Especially since White Rose's summary is wrong and biased. Now that's one hell of a echo chamber.