Aya in love is always so super adorbs.

^ I stand by what I said. :P

What about the arc where Kasumi tells Saku, "For the last time, will you stop hanging all over me? I've told you a million times--I'm not into girls!"? lol

After all the times Kasumi feels up Sakurako and says something mean, clings to her at night as a hot water bottle, and encourages Sakurako to cling to her because Sakurako is scared, that'd be pretty mean.

Of course. I’m just goofing—this is nothing if not a reciprocal relationship.

Of course! Did I sound that serious?

^ I stand by what I said. :P

What about the arc where Kasumi tells Saku, "For the last time, will you stop hanging all over me? I've told you a million times--I'm not into girls!"? lol

After all the times Kasumi feels up Sakurako and says something mean, clings to her at night as a hot water bottle, and encourages Sakurako to cling to her because Sakurako is scared, that'd be pretty mean.

rgv posted:

Well, Sakurako could have gone to any college, so this is just my own fantasy, but I imagine Sakurako as pre-law -> law -> judge -> politician in her life. Or pre-med -> med -> surgeon -> world class surgeon. So, following Kasumi in college feels like her having her wings clipped. Granted she could still become a minister's aid or the what I fancy, a diplomatic attache, as a social psychologist, but it still feels like wasted potential. And it isn't like they had to go to the same college to live together.

To sum it up, it feels like Kasumi allowed Sakurako to under-perform in college by letting her follow.

She could not be interested in any of those though. Just because you have potential there, it doesn't mean that's the field you yourself want to go into. She might be as well perfectly content and happy with the way things are.

This is just a lesser argument, but Kasumi was wise enough to hide her major from Sakurako so she'd pick her own, so a part of me thinks she should have taken it just a little further.

Well, Sakurako could have gone to any college, so this is just my own fantasy, but I imagine Sakurako as pre-law -> law -> judge -> politician in her life. Or pre-med -> med -> surgeon -> world class surgeon. So, following Kasumi in college feels like her having her wings clipped. Granted she could still become a minister's aid or the what I fancy, a diplomatic attache, as a social psychologist, but it still feels like wasted potential. And it isn't like they had to go to the same college to live together.

To sum it up, it feels like Kasumi allowed Sakurako to under-perform in college by letting her follow.

last edited at May 25, 2019 10:07PM

I hope I'm not stepping on forbidden ground, but was anyone else a little ticked off that Kasumi allowed Sakurako to follow her to the same college?

I thought the argument was 'you are being too reductionist: Kasumi and Sakurako are too detailed of characters to simplify as "you are supposed to pretend to be Sakurako, and fantasize about being in a relationship Kasumi"'. Sakurako has traits most people don't have, making her a difficult reader insert character (I think she's meant to be sympathetic rather than empathetic). Kasumi has a lot of very human traits, so if you just ignored her looks (which I guess is very hard to do) she would be easy to relate to.

I arrived at preferring Sakurako after a simple thought experiment. Trophy wives are supposed to be shown off. So I imagined what it would be like to have Kasumi escort a business man to a fancy dinner. I won't relate the details, but the guy was unhappy with the results. I did the same with Sakurako, and while she didn't wow them with her looks, she did a hell of a lot better. And I noticed Sakurako has most of the features I like in a partner.

@BugDevil nice summary of your argument.

Might be a good point to agree to disagree and walk away though.

last edited at May 21, 2019 6:06PM

Not that it really matters, but isn't this published in a seinen magazine?

I am convinced. Sakurako is not an amazing human being with unparalleled talents that inspire awe and desire in me. Instead she's a plain boring person of no particular consequence if not for her relationship with Kasumi. Pardon me if I offended. I will never again find talent a wonderful thing.

I cannot for the life of me see Sakurako as a hard worker. She doesn't need to study. She doesn't have a job (until recently). She doesn't need to go to cram school. We see on more than one occasion the reason she does things is to relieve boredom. Why does she help the teachers? She literally has nothing else to do. Why does she help everyone at the school festival in college? She has vast knowledge, so it is incredibly easy for her to help them out, and it doesn't take much time.

To compare, think about Superman stopping a run away truck. He just has to stand there. It is no effort at all for him. Would you really say it is hard work for Superman to stop a runaway truck? Would you really say anything Sakurako does is hard work, when nothing she does seems to take effort for her?

Didn't she get into college without any extra effort at all, when every manga and anime talks about how hard third years need to study? She probably could have gotten into Toudai, Stanford, or Harvard if she wanted to after a week in the library. Her teachers certainly thought she should try.

Then there's her sociability. By the old mechanic Kasumi is the one who should be popular, and I suppose she is in a way. She has a lot of admirers, but only few friends (most of whom seem to be through Sakurako). Sakurako by comparison is sociable enough for a con man or career politician. She knows everybody and, more to the point, everybody knows her and how capable she is. People ask her to help out, and she gets gratuity in various forms for it. We see it at the aforementioned college school festival, and in the first Valentine's day when all the girls in class begged her for chocolate, and all the things they gave her in return for white day. Sakurako is arguably the more popular of the two (because you can make an argument either way, but lets not, because who is more popular isn't important).

My point is, in what way did Sakurako get to where she is by hard work and effort, rather than natural talent and ability? And how is anyone supposed to identify with that level of capability?

last edited at May 18, 2019 2:14PM

Do they identify with Sakurako and indeed see this as some sort of "lesbian wish fulfillment story" which would imply Kasumi is the ideal object of interest? Is Sakurako the most likely point of self-insertion?

Yes.

Besides looks I identify with Kasumi, and I'd love to have a Sakurako in my life.

I wouldn't call Sakurako a fan of Kasumi's. I'd call her the grand priestess of the Kasumiist faith.

That is kind of it. Being so over the top about it that she's hard to take seriously. Especially since an idol is someone to fawn over from a distance, and Kasumi is right there. In her bed.

And then there's the time when they hadn't spent much time together because Kasumi was busy so she spent the entire day with her head in Sakurako's lap, and even begged to order in so they could spend the time that'd be spent cooking in physical contact instead. Then they cuddled all the way through eating dinner. I think this falls under skinship for debunking romanticism.

Just so I understand the argument, you're citing the above as evidence that Kasumi does NOT have romantic feelings for Sakurako, is that correct?

Nope! I'm saying that it isn't sufficient evidence that Kasumi is romantically interested in Sakurako because skinship is a thing, so it can be explained away. I find the episode romantic.

Usually I talk about them as being an unselfaware asexual lesbian couple. As in a female partnership that doesn't have sex, and doesn't recognize themselves as a couple even though they function as one. Even with Sakurako, I sometimes think she thinks of herself as a fan rather than as romantically interested.

I'm in the 'they really are romantically interested in each other' camp. I just don't entirely believe either one of them realizes it. And I can fully understand why someone would say it isn't true.

Strange how people think it's joke when there is nothing indicating this is the case. I guess the scene was supposed to be humourous but Kasumi herself sure was serious. I don't she is the sort of people to joke about theses sort of thing anyway

No indication? She was laughing while she said it..

Smiling is not laughing... And there is no indication she didn't mean it. She never contradicted it any point and is okay with Sakurako talking about their honeymoon.

And again, what is your explanation for Kasumi kissing Sakurako of her own volition?

Maybe she loves her, but FOR ME is it not romantic Love.
And some people kiss their friends on the cheek, and are not in love with them.

When you get a chapter about them pondering if they are best friends, or Kasumi offering up Sakurako to a goukon, it gets a bit hard to see Kasumi feeling anything romantic for Sakurako. Or, at least, being conscious of feeling that way about Sakurako.

Still, I find Kasumi pretty romantic towards Sakurako even if she doesn't have those kinds of feelings for her.

There's little things, like remembering her birthday and white day, and getting her that stone kiln microwave oven she mentioned wanting (of course, this example is self serving for gluttonous Kasumi).

Then there's times like when Sakurako mentions off hand how nice it'd be to see Kasumi in a magazine and so she does it, despite originally becoming a sketch model because being a photo model was too much of a pain.

Sometimes she even looks like she's trying to be smooth, like when Sakurako complains about the sun on their school trip so Kasumi takes off her hat, buys a parasol, and invites Sakurako to share it.

And then there's the time when they hadn't spent much time together because Kasumi was busy so she spent the entire day with her head in Sakurako's lap, and even begged to order in so they could spend the time that'd be spent cooking in physical contact instead. Then they cuddled all the way through eating dinner. I think this falls under skinship for debunking romanticism.

Still if she's like that with just a friend, she'd probably be a pretty good partner in a romantic relationship. Except for finding the idea of dating too much of a pain to bother with.

I tend to read Kasumi as latent. She's in love with and committed to a relationship with Sakurako, but she doesn't even know the word lesbian. So yes the marriage comment was a joke, but she's unaware of the underlying feelings of jealousy that spurred her to say it.

Kasu on Saku: “She’s my wife.”

Which she says to a little girl who just about proposes to Sakurako. While putting an arm covetously around Sakurako. And if you say that it was just a joke, she didn't really mean it, well, she did bop Sakurako for trying to kiss Seri while drunk at the flower viewing in a burst of anger that surprised even herself.

But what gets me is that once they hit college these start two ship baiting not the readers, but every other character they know in the story. The college friends who blush over Sakurako's bold declarations of a satisfying sex life (not to mention they think the two are a proud, openly a gay couple). Their high school junior, Seri, was partially emboldened to get into a lesbian relationship because she wanted to emulate them (imagine her shock that they didn't cross that line). Kasumi brags about their effortless five year relationship to her boss who wants to know the secret so he can smooth his own 20 year marriage. Sakurako's family seems to accept them as a couple in that they ask them, not just her, to visit more often. Kasumi treated it as a joke, but I get a feeling her mother meant it when she called Sakurako her capable daughter-in-law.

I keep imaging them ending up at some kind of surprise engagement party arranged jointly by their parents (an excuse for the parents to meet each others), where those two go 'who's engaged? nono, we aren't like that' followed by chapters of people's reactions, interrogatives, and essentially a 'you two are a couple' intervention at the end. Isn't it fun to imagine what everyone they know would ask or say to them under those circumstances?

last edited at May 2, 2019 10:49PM

The only ones who could pose a hurdle are either Sayaka or Yuu's mom. Rei and Maki have no reason to care. Hell, I think even Sayaka has accepted it deep down.

I was actually thinking along the lines of the scenario that Yuu imagined way back when she begged Maki not to say anything about the kiss to anyone. Maki and Rei would be a support network, and Sayaka one way or another would probably join up. I can see Akari freaking out about it and putting distance between her and Yuu though.

last edited at Jul 30, 2018 7:05PM

There would be a bonus chapter between the wait though. Seems like there won't be one this time around. Anyone thinking there's a possibility that the next volume is the last?

I mean, heck, I thought for a while that Yuu's post-play confession would go well the first time and it might end THIS volume. Nio could easily end things pretty soon if she wants. She could also keep it going a while yet - even if/when Yuu/Touko get together (or don't, for that matter), there's no reason Nio couldn't keep writing about the new phase of their relationship if she wants.

I was expecting the confession to not go well. Not with all the mentions of possible rejection & foreshadowing of Yuu crying at some point. The scenario in this recent chapter is the one I was expecting to happen just before the play so everything would wrap up smoothly once it ended, but it's happening now so the resolution should take a couple of chapters more. In the interview when vol 5 came out, Nakatani said that the series was about 75% done so I'm pretty sure the series will end with vol 7 or 8. I think the recent drama will be resolved within 4-5 chapters, but even if it takes the whole volume, I don't see Nakatani dedicating an entire volume to just fluffy dating, only as bonus chapters. If she does end up writing about them as a couple, IMO, I think that'll only happen if there's another hurdle that the two have to cross.

Well, if we look for foreshadowing, the next hurdle as a couple is pretty obviously getting outed. There's been a lot of hinting that might happen with Maki, the sister, Sayaka, and more. That might play into the storm instead though.

Damn it, Yuu. Took you long enough.

And yes, any time is a good time to tell somebody you love them. I have no idea why that would even be an issue, seeing how Touko has been waiting for you to say exactly that for ages now.

Man, why do all my favorite yuri stories always turn out to be so frustrating?

Touko explicitly told her, repeatedly, not to fall in love with her, that she couldn't love someone who loves her, because she hates herself. There's a good possibility that she might not actually respond to it the way she thought she would, and her recent progress definitely makes a positive reaction more likely than it was, but she definitely hasn't been waiting for Yuu to say "I love you". Have you even been reading this manga?

And don't forget Touko's attitude to the words I love you.

If you did that, I would fall out of love with you.

The word love is like a shackle.

I love you.

Don't ever change.

For Touko "I love you" is a magic spell so Yuu remains the kind girl who tolerates her eccentricities and demands. Saying it to Yuu let's her deal with her anxiety by being reassured she has someone who will always be there for her. Or at least it did. The whole aquarium date contradicts her previous relationship with Yuu. What keeps standing out to me was the exchange at the aquarium when Touko seems to be fishing for Yuu to say she wanted to see her, and Yuu's dissembling. When Yuu is lying or hiding something she looks away from the person, and that is not Yuu's normal complaining.

But if Touko doesn't need to say I love you anymore, if her relationship with Yuu is built on dealing with her own anxiety, then will she still want the girl she fell in love with because she'd be nice to her and help relieve her anxieties?

last edited at Jun 3, 2018 10:49PM

... what about the guy who confessed to Yuu before the story even started?

This has been everything I look forward to in a yuri series. Yeah, the play was everything that one would expect... but I'm still so glad to see it. And it was still a better production than I expected. I was kinda expecting Sayaka to find out the deal with Yuu and Touko... and to be driven by empathy (imagining herself in Yuu's position) to yell at Touko.

And if the anime gives a het ending to all this, I fully expect it to still include the Sayaka side story to completely undermine itself.