On another note, everyone has seemed really focused on Hino's negatives so far, but I really like Blastaar's point about Hino's effect on Koguma's self-esteem. In this case, Koguma's design has serviced the story nicely in my opinion, as she has shown in the past that she feels somewhat uncomfortable with her self image and Hino has been nothing but supportive in that regard. I think that's one of the strongest cases against them having an abusive relationship: Hino may actively try to tease Koguma with lightly suggestive matters, but when it comes to topics that Koguma genuinely worries about (such as her appearance or trying to be a good class rep) Hino is always supportive and she's always honest with Koguma when it counts (e.g. all of ch. 10, beginning of ch. 11, etc). I think that's really what makes their relationship sweet rather than worrisome.

This, thank you for voicing my opinion lol

Shhh, how are we supposed to amuse ourselves in Dynasty if people aren't fighting?

Well, there are other ways, but I admit, watching people fighting in the forums, or being a minor and marginal participant in it, is kinda amusing, and, just like in the case of the recent argument in the "A Room for Two" thread, it can sometimes yield comedic results in addition to the result you'd usually expect from a war of words on the internet.

last edited at May 10, 2019 4:12PM

i'm right there with you majere.

i put up with a lot of stuff that i think is messed up in order to read yuri. i try to take what i can from a work, but i definitely don't agree that the rest of an author's work should be irrelevant. the reason i went looking at the pixiv was because things in this comic were making me uncomfortable, so i looked to the author's other stuff to see if maybe my discomfort was just a one off thing.

i found their other comics and illustrations even more creepy, and it definitely shows that this isn't an aberration. this element of young looking women is a major focus of their work, and that puts this work into a different context.

i'm not telling anyone that they shouldn't read hino-san no baka because of this. all i am saying is that there is a place for discussion about the author's intent. i can overlook a few dodgy things here and there, but when the content you like is the aberration, and the rest of their stuff is problematic, i think it warrants a discussion.

the same way you would put any art into perspective, both historical and personal.

is it creepy that this comic keeps bringing up how young koguma looks? well, for me, when i see the rest of this author's work, yes. it is creepy.

I actually really liked this manga up until this rather skeevy development what I dislike is this comment section's immediate attempt to dismiss and shut down anyone expressing discomfort with the subject matter and paint them as oversensitive or reading too much into it. Like this happens in pretty much every thread for a series with content that some people are uncomfortable with: people voice their concerns and then the people who like whatever it is get defensive because they perceive critique of whatever as a personal attack on them.

It made me really uncomfortable too at that point. If it bothers you then drop the manga, but don't go against the grain of the comments too much, otherwise nezchan will beat you with ban baton.

Well, once someone has “voiced their concerns,” then what? Once a reader has expressed their discomfort, disapproval, dislike, whatever, for the content of a series, then what? If two people say, “This story makes me uncomfortable,” and eight others say they think it’s cute and funny and they aren’t uncomfortable, then what?

People who don’t share those concerns or feelings can acknowledge that other people have them, and perhaps explain why they don’t have them. Does failing to ratify the feelings a story creates in others constitute “dismissing” or “shutting down” their opinions? If so, what should be done about it?

i'm not trying to further an argument with my last post, just trying to explain my thought process so that people can see how i came to the conclusions i did.

@majere
It's always alright to voice your discomfort.
It's equally legitimate for people to tell you why your interpretation might be flawed.

Literally no comment in this entire thread has actually effectively justified their belief that being uncomfortable with this manga is unjustified. The line between bullying/harassment and teasing is super fine and entirely subjective so it's asinine to try to claim that your particular stance is the right one when there is no right stance it's a matter of personal experience and perspective.

I actually really liked this manga up until this rather skeevy development what I dislike is this comment section's immediate attempt to dismiss and shut down anyone expressing discomfort with the subject matter and paint them as oversensitive or reading too much into it. Like this happens in pretty much every thread for a series with content that some people are uncomfortable with: people voice their concerns and then the people who like whatever it is get defensive because they perceive critique of whatever as a personal attack on them.

It made me really uncomfortable too at that point. If it bothers you then drop the manga, but don't go against the grain of the comments too much, otherwise nezchan will beat you with ban baton.

Well, once someone has “voiced their concerns,” then what? Once a reader has expressed their discomfort, disapproval, dislike, whatever, for the content of a series, then what? If two people say, “This story makes me uncomfortable,” and eight others say they think it’s cute and funny and they aren’t uncomfortable, then what?

People who don’t share those concerns or feelings can acknowledge that other people have them, and perhaps explain why they don’t have them. Does failing to ratify the feelings a story creates in others constitute “dismissing” or “shutting down” their opinions? If so, what should be done about it?

Nothing. Like if the only thing you have to offer boils down to "Your emotional reaction to this story is wrong because it's different from mine and mine is clearly right" then it's hardly something they need to hear. If the content of a story hits too close to home for someone they don't need you nitpicking their feelings because you can't accept people not liking the things you like.

Skeevy development
Creepy

Hey and I'm only going to say this once: Are you idiots reading the same manga that I am?
The one where Koguma is consistently turned on by Hino's teasing and keeps coming back for more despite her protests? (something that is very much a subset of submissive play)
The one where Hino is always only pressing exactly the buttons that she knows Koguma will like?

Jesus fucking christ why is this site so goddamn stupid sometimes, if the teasing was more fierce or intensive I could maybe understand because not everyone is comfortable with D/s play and misinterprets it as abuse sometimes but this is next level, it's the tamest shit on the planet.
Why in the fresh hell has /u/ goddamn /U/ had better yuri discussions than dynasty for the past few weeks? What happened to this site?

Ok good I got that rant out was holding this in for a while.

Literally no comment in this entire thread has actually effectively justified their belief that being uncomfortable with this manga is unjustified. The line between bullying/harassment and teasing is super fine and entirely subjective so it's asinine to try to claim that your particular stance is the right one when there is no right stance it's a matter of personal experience and perspective.

In other words, your discomfort isn't "right". Thanks for admitting it lol

Your circular reasoning aside, I didn't say that people told you what is "correct". They (I guess me included), explained to you why your subjective viewpoint is flawed in context of the work, it's intent and the real life comparisons. All of which you gladly ignored to further your wishy-washy point. Cute.

To make it far easier... if the line between the two was really as thin and uncertain as you say, then authorial intent is the thing that shows you which direction it actually goes. If you truly believe it could go either way (something you didn't actually claim in your original comments) then guess what? What the story is actually showing is more accurate than your personal experience infered realistic views.

does anyone in this thread smoke weed

Skeevy development
Creepy

Hey and I'm only going to say this once: Are you idiots reading the same manga that I am?
The one where Koguma is consistently turned on by Hino's teasing and keeps coming back for more despite her protests? (something that is very much a subset of submissive play)
The one where Hino is always only pressing exactly the buttons that she knows Koguma will like?

Jesus fucking christ why is this site so goddamn stupid sometimes, if the teasing was more fierce or intensive I could maybe understand because not everyone is comfortable with D/s play and misinterprets it as abuse sometimes but this is next level, it's the tamest shit on the planet.
Why in the fresh hell has /u/ goddamn /U/ had better yuri discussions than dynasty for the past few weeks? What happened to this site?

Ok good I got that rant out was holding this in for a while.

Well that was entirely uncalled for and mean spirited. Maybe you should go back to /u/ if Dynasty isn't hardcore enough for you or whatever your beef is.

@majere
It's always alright to voice your discomfort.
It's equally legitimate for people to tell you why your interpretation might be flawed.

Literally no comment in this entire thread has actually effectively justified their belief that being uncomfortable with this manga is unjustified. The line between bullying/harassment and teasing is super fine and entirely subjective so it's asinine to try to claim that your particular stance is the right one when there is no right stance it's a matter of personal experience and perspective.

Your discomfort is your own property; no one else has the ability to justify it or invalidate it for you.

I’ve made the argument that at least a bit of subliminal reader discomfort is built into the story’s premise; like Koguma, we’re supposed to worry a bit about Hino “going too far” so our expectations can be overturned or otherwise manipulated.

But that’s talking in terms of genre and narrative conventions; you’ve made it pretty clear that your opinion about the content of the story is not modified by the fictional context or by what can be inferred about authorial intention. Since that’s the case, there’s not much that can be said except that some people feel one way about the story and, pending further developments, others feel differently.

Skeevy development
Creepy

Hey and I'm only going to say this once: Are you idiots reading the same manga that I am?
The one where Koguma is consistently turned on by Hino's teasing and keeps coming back for more despite her protests? (something that is very much a subset of submissive play)
The one where Hino is always only pressing exactly the buttons that she knows Koguma will like?

Jesus fucking christ why is this site so goddamn stupid sometimes, if the teasing was more fierce or intensive I could maybe understand because not everyone is comfortable with D/s play and misinterprets it as abuse sometimes but this is next level, it's the tamest shit on the planet.
Why in the fresh hell has /u/ goddamn /U/ had better yuri discussions than dynasty for the past few weeks? What happened to this site?

Ok good I got that rant out was holding this in for a while.

Well that was entirely uncalled for and mean spirited. Maybe you should go back to /u/ if Dynasty isn't hardcore enough for you or whatever your beef is.

It's not uncalled for when I see the same 4 people in the center of every single argument on half the yuri uploaded here for a few months now trying to point out how "problematic" every single manga uploaded is and I'm really goddamn sick of it.

last edited at May 10, 2019 5:00PM

Literally no comment in this entire thread has actually effectively justified their belief that being uncomfortable with this manga is unjustified. The line between bullying/harassment and teasing is super fine and entirely subjective so it's asinine to try to claim that your particular stance is the right one when there is no right stance it's a matter of personal experience and perspective.

In other words, your discomfort isn't "right". Thanks for admitting it lol

Your circular reasoning aside, I didn't say that people told you what is "correct". They (I guess me included), explained to you why your subjective viewpoint is flawed in context of the work, it's intent and the real life comparisons. All of which you gladly ignored to further your wishy-washy point. Cute.

To make it far easier... if the line between the two was really as thin and uncertain as you say, then authorial intent is the thing that shows you which direction it actually goes. If you truly believe it could go either way (something you didn't actually claim in your original comments) then guess what? What the story is actually showing is more accurate than your personal experience infered realistic views.

Please be less smug, especially when you're being wrong at the same time. Discomfort isn't right or wrong it is a subjective personal reaction. It can be in tune with societal standards or not but ultimately it is divorced from the concept of correctness because it just is what it is whether or not you think it's reasonable. Save your trite "gotcha" nonsense.

The context of the work doesn't matter. The content is the content and prettying it up and making it palatable doesn't make it not what it is. If someone is sensitive to bullying and feels discomfited by Hino's behaviour here because it sets of red flags for them it doesn't matter if the author doesn't intend for that to be the case. If an author writes a sex scene that sure looks and feels like rape but they pinkie swear it's not really rape people aren't mistaken in being uncomfortable with it because the authorial intent doesn't matter it looks and feels like what it looks and feels like. Just because your interpretation is in line with authorial intent doesn't mean other interpretations are flawed. I fully understand the authors intent but I straight up just don't agree with it when it comes to this most recent chapter and for others that point came earlier because they have a different line in the sand. Intent isn't magic.

The context of the work doesn't matter. The content is the content and prettying it up and making it palatable doesn't make it not what it is.

Context doesn't matter huh?
just..wow, no wonder you're constantly mad about yuri if you legitimately believe that.
Ok, then we should just ban all BDSM related works because somebody somewhere might interpret it as abuse and get offended, oh wait no that would set us back hundreds of years in social progress.

rereading it, i honestly don't think hino is talking about her panties. she is pulling her hair back. like another poster said earlier it might just be earrings.

The context of the work doesn't matter. The content is the content and prettying it up and making it palatable doesn't make it not what it is.

Context doesn't matter huh?
just..wow, no wonder you're constantly mad about yuri if you legitimately believe that.
Ok, then we should just ban all BDSM related works because somebody somewhere might interpret it as abuse and get offended, oh wait no that would set us back hundreds of years in social progress.

Literally at no point did I say anything about works that make people uncomfortable being banned. If you're so concerned about the quality of the discussion on these forums maybe you could start by not being so incredibly hostile.

rereading it, i honestly don't think hino is talking about her panties. she is pulling her hair back. like another poster said earlier it might just be earrings.

That feels like kind of a reach but it's possible. I doubt it'll ever be addressed though.

Please be less smug, especially when you're being wrong at the same time. Discomfort isn't right or wrong it is a subjective personal reaction. It can be in tune with societal standards or not but ultimately it is divorced from the concept of correctness because it just is what it is whether or not you think it's reasonable. Save your trite "gotcha" nonsense.

The context of the work doesn't matter. The content is the content and prettying it up and making it palatable doesn't make it not what it is. If someone is sensitive to bullying and feels discomfited by Hino's behaviour here because it sets of red flags for them it doesn't matter if the author doesn't intend for that to be the case. If an author writes a sex scene that sure looks and feels like rape but they pinkie swear it's not really rape people aren't mistaken in being uncomfortable with it because the authorial intent doesn't matter it looks and feels like what it looks and feels like. Just because your interpretation is in line with authorial intent doesn't mean other interpretations are flawed. I fully understand the authors intent but I straight up just don't agree with it when it comes to this most recent chapter and for others that point came earlier because they have a different line in the sand. Intent isn't magic.

Sorry, smugness is all I have when someone outright denies any thought out and nice attempts at discourse as "not a good justification".

You didn't get it, huh? I was being facetious. I know there is no right and wrong here, but you portrayed your point as legitimate and then said everyone else couldn't prove themselves "right" to you. Which is ironic as neither could you. When you are the one who makes it about right and wrong, you cannot be the one to dismiss it and pretend that you actually accomplished anything.

Ah yes, the context doesn't matter. Well if that is so, then I suppose neither do your feelings on it. I don't need to know how you came to the conclusions you did, because just at face value, your point is contradicting the actual manga. See how problematic that kind of thinking is? Context always matters. Yes, you might still feel uncomfortable, but don't you do less so, knowing the author neither intended anything bad nor will go down a bad path with the story?

In this particular case where nothing bad actually happened, none of the parties felt bad, nothing bad was even implied and you simply have nothing to base your discomfort around other than some vague feelings... Yes, I'd say the authorial intent trumps them.
Your example is ludicrous and incomparable. If something bad happened and the author said it didn't, fair enough. Such a contradiction does not exist in this case however. It is a situation you can interpret both ways if you really try, but that's just it. It's vague and therefore intention matters. No magic needed.

last edited at May 10, 2019 5:38PM

Are people actually arguing about this adorable bundle of cuteness?? I love this series. If it makes you uncomfortable, that just says something about YOU, not the story. Get over it. Love the cute. FFS people.

I actually really liked this manga up until this rather skeevy development what I dislike is this comment section's immediate attempt to dismiss and shut down anyone expressing discomfort with the subject matter and paint them as oversensitive or reading too much into it. Like this happens in pretty much every thread for a series with content that some people are uncomfortable with: people voice their concerns and then the people who like whatever it is get defensive because they perceive critique of whatever as a personal attack on them.

...I gotta admit, I didn't go back and check when this argument started, but read some resonses from both sides here - and witnessed arguments of that kind on other manga on DR.

But let me phrase it like this:
Not everybody likes apples. Some people may even be allergic to apples, get that icky tingling on their tongue and a dry mouth or itches. Others just don't like the taste. Or only like them fresh, but can't stand them as juice, sauce, pie....
And there's no fault in expressing how one personally dislikes apples or how they affect them negatively. If someone then goes around and says "Apples are the worst" or "Apples are disgusting" that may be meant as a personal opinion but may come across a statement due to using superlatives or general phrasing / choice of words / conclusions. And that may very well upset the apple-lovers or even apple-neutralists, urging them to make a counter-argument ("No, apples are awesome and healthy. YOU are the worst!"). Because, to a degree it is personal to them - if a subjective opinion is presented as fact.
...Now, with much harder to grasp concepts like style and genre, and the negative and much less tangible effect these may have on someone, it's much easier to shoot someone and their (more often than not, statement-like worded) opinion down.

So, at least, a subjectively worded "I think..." or "I (don't) like..." should not necessarily be cause for an outrage.
But...
When someone openly posts their opinion, they do invite others to react (especially in forums that are very much labeled "discussions"). Those who post may even look for agreement, others affirming their beliefs and perception. At the same time it's as warranted to receive replies that disagree and present differing opinions.

The same applies to concerns being voiced: they are still being posted into a discussion forum - hence there will be counter-arguments (that's how discussions work), and not all of them may be well-crafted arguments (from both sides), since concerns are subjective and therefore based on personal tastes, opinions and feelings. However, such discussions - even the high-strung ones - can lead to insight on both sides and a broadened context and comprehension on the matter in question.

Last but not least, we have the "This makes me uncomfortable" posts.
These are harder to judge and responses may open a whole can of worms.
On one hand they are like all others dropped into a discussion area. So some people will attempt to make a case of how unjust that statement / insinuation is. Or at the very least for how they have a different opinion and perception of the matter. And at best, try to shift perspective to a more comfortable viewpoint / re-evaluate the matter by taking other points into consideration.
But, what makes one uncomfortable is a very personal matter (a notion that may in itself be cause for strong responses). We are taught to speak up when we feel uncomfortable - and we are (or should be) taught, that respecting someone elses comfort zone is very important and that we (as individuals and as society) should take such expressions seriously, and re-/act accordingly.
These posts and their responses depend heavily on the wording / phrasing, context and emphasis.

"This makes me uncomfortable" posts should be read and responeded to with awareness and reflection and when in doubt be taken seriously.

However, we can't make all apples disappear because some people react badly to them... The food industry may label them to warn allergic people (just as DR keeps adding new tags), but overall it's up to those reacting badly, once aware of the problem, to avoid the product in question themselves, responsibly.

...

Tl;dr:
1. Attacking someone for their personal opinion / tastes isn't okay.
2. Make sure you don't phrase your personal opinion as fact, or if you add facts, to place them into proper context and having done your research, or others will opinionize and fact-slap you to death.
3. Be aware you are posting your opinion in a discussion forum. There will be people disagreeing - especially when you post a negatively tainted opinion into a forum that's inhabited by - presumably - fans of the matter.
4. Discussions are good. We can learn from another. If only that different opinions exist! (the last is no joke, there are ppl who forget this as they prefer to surround themselves by ones that already think alike) ...also, they're quite so entertaining - bring popcorn :P

Friendly reminder, kids, if your in a room full of people and one guy is frothing at the mouth and yelling angry hateful things about gay people then the safe money on who in the room is closeted is on the one making the scene.

The same applies to pedophiles.

Another cute chapter. ^o^ Feels like there is some progress going on.

If it was merely a matter of stating one's discomfort, I'd have no problem. Personally, I'd say a bit of danger is the spice of life, and I don't understand the need some people have to sanitize something to the point where I'd feel the lifeblood and excitement's completely drained from it, but to each their own.

What I do find fault with is the need to cast the author as some kind of sick fuck because they didn't do so and also may (or may not even, apparently!) draw loli on the side, which even if they do, would be a massive leap in reasoning. It's literally a case of "stop liking what i don't like" but dressed up as moralistic prattling.

last edited at May 10, 2019 5:58PM

Friendly reminder, kids, if your in a room full of people and one guy is frothing at the mouth and yelling angry hateful things about gay people then the safe money on who in the room is closeted is on the one making the scene.

The same applies to pedophiles.

Didn't the moderator already shoot down the pedophile debate? Why are you trying to bring it back?