5Cats posted:

5Cats posted:

he is

...

Nooooo! That would just be stupid then... Oh wait, did you mean 'thick-skulled' or that other thing? Lolz

Even if he is (that other thing) maybe they can still have a nice, clean lesbian relationship! Or both be gay males? Anyhow they ought to make babies together, that's for sure.

I only pointed out you misgendered Akira as a guy. I have no clue what your post is talking about.

Hime is very tomboyish for sure, but I hope that's not her defining reasoning if she comes out as a trans guy especially after being called a "boy" because she's outwardly aggressive. That'd just be sort of poor writing in my eyes as it just plays into gender stereotypes to begin with. minor nitpick, I guess, but I hate the concept that you have to act stereotypically feminine/masculine to be trans. Mermaid Line with Ayumi and Aika handled this REALLY well for how short it was. Will be interesting to follow though I suppose.

Outside of one's physical sex, gender only really exists as a stereotype. Femininity and masculinity are nothing more than a group of traits and ideas society has grouped together as being common to one sex or the other and slapped a label on them. What passes as feminine or masculine in one society isn't necessarily even transferable to another. I think what varies is how people have internalized those stereo types and the degree to which they have become a part of one's identity.

Looking East posted:

Hime is very tomboyish for sure, but I hope that's not her defining reasoning if she comes out as a trans guy especially after being called a "boy" because she's outwardly aggressive. That'd just be sort of poor writing in my eyes as it just plays into gender stereotypes to begin with. minor nitpick, I guess, but I hate the concept that you have to act stereotypically feminine/masculine to be trans. Mermaid Line with Ayumi and Aika handled this REALLY well for how short it was. Will be interesting to follow though I suppose.

Femininity and masculinity are nothing more than a group of traits and ideas society has grouped together as being common to one sex or the other and slapped a label on them.

To be fair, some traits are much more common in 1 gender compare to other, so they become more associated with them, but of course there are always exceptions to it. It is true most of it is based on generalizations, but some things are influenced by our biology, so we can't simply dismiss it as irrelevant.

she should be in full metal alchemist

Looking East posted:
Outside of one's physical sex, gender only really exists as a stereotype. Femininity and masculinity are nothing more than a group of traits and ideas society has grouped together as being common to one sex or the other and slapped a label on them. What passes as feminine or masculine in one society isn't necessarily even transferable to another. I think what varies is how people have internalized those stereo types and the degree to which they have become a part of one's identity.

You better not open that can of worm. What you write looks like radical feminism a lot.

is it wrong that i hope she isnt trans too? i just want some trans yuri :P

is it wrong that i hope she isnt trans too? i just want some trans yuri :P

That would be interesting! plus she doesn't have to "feel like she has to be a man" cos she's aggressive and not "cute and fluffy"

Looking East posted:

Hime is very tomboyish for sure, but I hope that's not her defining reasoning if she comes out as a trans guy especially after being called a "boy" because she's outwardly aggressive. That'd just be sort of poor writing in my eyes as it just plays into gender stereotypes to begin with. minor nitpick, I guess, but I hate the concept that you have to act stereotypically feminine/masculine to be trans. Mermaid Line with Ayumi and Aika handled this REALLY well for how short it was. Will be interesting to follow though I suppose.

Femininity and masculinity are nothing more than a group of traits and ideas society has grouped together as being common to one sex or the other and slapped a label on them.

To be fair, some traits are much more common in 1 gender compare to other, so they become more associated with them, but of course there are always exceptions to it. It is true most of it is based on generalizations, but some things are influenced by our biology, so we can't simply dismiss it as irrelevant.

I agree with you on that one

is it wrong that i hope she isnt trans too? i just want some trans yuri :P

I'm torn because on the one hand the world desperately needs more representation of trans men but on the other I desperately need more representation of sapphic trans women.

Male and Female are gender (sex) oriented where as Masculine and Feminine are not but more character based traits i.e. a woman can be masculine and a man can be feminine without either going through a process of gender (sex) transitioning of male to female or female to male. Akira identifies with feminine traits yet has not gone through or may never go through the process of gender (sex) alteration whereas Hime is still very much feminine yet has, seemingly, masculine traits (boisterous, loud and somewhat violent behaviour (not necessarily masculine only traits)) but is still a female as Akira is still a male. Homo sapiens come in Two Sex based Genders - Male and Female, these genders can also be medically altered whereas Masculine and Feminine are character based traits and apply to the individual person whether male or female. Sorry, people keep ranting on in defensiveness rather than looking at it through the species point of view in which character traits, personal view, belief or religion need no place in the discussion. It is neither right nor wrong to be feminine or masculine based on your, current, gender (sex). Again, sorry about the rant just hadn't had the opportunity to let it out.

Ah. Took longer than I expected for this to start.

Male and Female are gender (sex) oriented where as Masculine and Feminine are not but more character based traits i.e. a woman can be masculine and a man can be feminine without either going through a process of gender (sex) transitioning of male to female or female to male. Akira identifies with feminine traits yet has not gone through or may never go through the process of gender (sex) alteration whereas Hime is still very much feminine yet has, seemingly, masculine traits (boisterous, loud and somewhat violent behaviour (not necessarily masculine only traits)) but is still a female as Akira is still a male. Homo sapiens come in Two Sex based Genders - Male and Female, these genders can also be medically altered whereas Masculine and Feminine are character based traits and apply to the individual person whether male or female. Sorry, people keep ranting on in defensiveness rather than looking at it through the species point of view in which character traits, personal view, belief or religion need no place in the discussion. It is neither right nor wrong to be feminine or masculine based on your, current, gender (sex). Again, sorry about the rant just hadn't had the opportunity to let it out.

Wrong on so many levels

KawaiiSuika - I'm always willing to learn so please inform me of my incorrectness (this sounds like sarcasm but its not). I'll admit I may be ignorant and spout cap but I am willing to be informed if I am wrong.

KawaiiSuika - I'm always willing to learn so please inform me of my incorrectness (this sounds like sarcasm but its not). I'll admit I may be ignorant and spout cap but I am willing to be informed if I am wrong.

I noticed a couple of things off the top of my head:

1) Gender and sex are not interchangeable terms when you're talking about gender identity even though they are often used as such in other contexts. When people talk about their gender in the context of identity physical sex markers don't really enter into it it's a matter of psychology. Your gender identity is unconnected to your biological sex characteristics and a trans woman who has not transitioned at all is just as much of a woman as one who passes perfectly as cis. You could theoretically make the argument that trans people are still biologically their assigned sex/gender but it's super dismissive and rude and you should not ever do that because it's just cruel pedantry for the sake of being a jerk.

2) There are more than 2 sexes. Intersex people exist and their sex characteristics span the gamut of what we traditionally consider "male" and "female." There are also more than 2 genders as the gender binary is a social construct predicated on the assumption that there are only 2 sexes.

majere posted:

You could theoretically make the argument that trans people are still biologically their assigned sex/gender but it's super dismissive and rude and you should not ever do that because it's just cruel pedantry for the sake of being a jerk.

And irrelevant in general.

majere posted:

You could theoretically make the argument that trans people are still biologically their assigned sex/gender but it's super dismissive and rude and you should not ever do that because it's just cruel pedantry for the sake of being a jerk.

And irrelevant in general.

Well, yeah it contributes nothing to the discussion as well but that's secondary to it just being really shitty from a "being a decent human" standpoint.

I hope Hime is a girl for some trans yuri or maybe neither (Hime as genderqueer think Mogumo)

Looking East posted:

Hime is very tomboyish for sure, but I hope that's not her defining reasoning if she comes out as a trans guy especially after being called a "boy" because she's outwardly aggressive. That'd just be sort of poor writing in my eyes as it just plays into gender stereotypes to begin with. minor nitpick, I guess, but I hate the concept that you have to act stereotypically feminine/masculine to be trans. Mermaid Line with Ayumi and Aika handled this REALLY well for how short it was. Will be interesting to follow though I suppose.

Femininity and masculinity are nothing more than a group of traits and ideas society has grouped together as being common to one sex or the other and slapped a label on them.

To be fair, some traits are much more common in 1 gender compare to other, so they become more associated with them, but of course there are always exceptions to it. It is true most of it is based on generalizations, but some things are influenced by our biology, so we can't simply dismiss it as irrelevant.

I wasn't trying to be dismissive about it or to suggest there wasn't necessarily a biological origin for a lot of the stereo types, but rather just pointing out you can't really completely separate those stereotypes from the the internalized gender rolls that are influenced and in part based upon them.

last edited at Feb 17, 2019 8:21PM

majere - I wish to state that I am in no way trying to be offensive and that I purposefully left out the argument of 'gender identification'. I am grateful for your post and you're right, I didn't mention intersexed people and I apologise for that. I'll admit I'm not well informed about those of intersexed birth and I should remedy that however I will say I was merely making a stand point based on not that of perception and sociological ideals but more on the statement of human biology. Added, through incredible wonders of science and medical capabilities we are able to in fact alter our genders, which is actually amazing. Gender Identification is about how one perceives them selves and I tend to stay away from that topic as I believe have no right to debate within this arena. I do admit that there will probably be a time when someone sees themselves as either masculine or feminine no longer exists because it is indeed a sociological view point where as male and female are based on a stasis of species reproduction and furtherment (in our species any way) and is in no way on how some one mentally or emotionally identifies them selves. We're human no matter race, origin or gender. As long as it doesn't cause harm or interfere with another's existence, you should feel free to be who you want and live a life fulfilled.

last edited at Feb 17, 2019 9:28PM

I am grateful for your post but I was merely making a stand point based on not that of perception and sociological ideals but more on the statement that human biology is that of male and female

But this isn't even biologically accurate, it's an oversimplification of human sexual variation for the sake of convenient adherence to existing societal norms not a scientific fact.

majere - You're right, and I shall in fact strive to learn more on the subject. I also noted it was something I wanted to get out of my head and I feel I've done that, even if I was incorrect. Now I can learn more here on out. Thank you for the responses, sincerely.

There is evidence showing that people who suffer from gender dysphoria have brain structures that reflect the other sex, so a female person suffering from gender dysphoria has a brain very similar to a male. From this perspective it's perfectly biological and changing their body sex is a medical procedure to realign the two parts. Transgenderism isn't just sociological and pulling the biological argument is just naive blindness overlooking the brain and mind functional aspect of the human body.

last edited at Feb 18, 2019 1:05AM

There is evidence showing that people who suffer from gender dysphoria have brain structures that reflect the other sex, so a female person suffering from gender dysphoria has a brain very similar to a male. From this perspective it's perfectly biological and changing their body sex is a medical procedure to realign the two parts. Transgenderism isn't just sociological and pulling the biological argument is just naive blindness overlooking the brain and mind functional aspect of the human body.

Tbf, iirc most of those studies are usually conducted on trans people who've had years of hormone therapy. Like, in any case trying to find the 'source' for being transgender usually just ends up with some transphobic reasoning behind it and it's best to just 'live the question' honestly. In any case, trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are however they feel like.

Oh and to the manga itself: As a lesbian trans woman, I'm hoping she's just uncomfortable with the notion of her having to be feminine as a girl rather than a trans boy, though if they are, then I just recognize the stories not really for me

last edited at Feb 18, 2019 2:43AM

What bothers me is that Akira is a walking stereotype of what average Japanese people would think is a "boy" who feels they are actually a girl. Ie, some spineless wimp.

Can't she just be a girl?

last edited at Feb 18, 2019 2:52AM

puts fingers together
I am...

interested