Forum › Kanojo ni Naritai Kimi to Boku discussion

joined Jan 26, 2019

Shy and meek boy and overbearing childhood female friend are common enough cliches that it doesn't feel like a huge stereotype to me for there to be a story where it turns out the boy is really a girl and the friend is really a boy

Chinatsu%202
joined Jan 27, 2016

Shy and meek boy and overbearing childhood female friend are common enough cliches that it doesn't feel like a huge stereotype to me for there to be a story where it turns out the boy is really a girl and the friend is really a boy

It's a pretty huge stereotype both about men and women in general and about trans people in particular. Like trans people's identities not being respected unless they exaggerate their masculinity/femininity to a stereotypical degree is in fact a real problem.

062589fd3c9f5577a916b303e3c6c27f
joined Nov 16, 2013

Hime is very tomboyish for sure, but I hope that's not her defining reasoning if she comes out as a trans guy especially after being called a "boy" because she's outwardly aggressive

That would indeed be stupid because it's backwards: boys are usually masculine because they understand themselves to be boys, meaning they emulate the male role models and peers in their lives and have, to differing degrees, masculinised brains. The same goes for girls and it applies to both trans and cis people.

Criticising a trans character for aligning with their gender role though is just as weird as criticising them for not being "masculine"/"feminine" enough. And attacking this manga for being clichéd is... strange, considering there has probably not been a single one ever that depicted an mtf x ftm childhood friend high school romance, or an mtf x tomboyish cis girl if that's where it's headed instead.

Yuu
joined Mar 28, 2015

The story itself is maybe not cliche (it remains to be seen), but the characters themselves are.

joined Nov 7, 2017

Okay... So my take on this awkward mess of a manga.
Akira strikes me as brave. Japan is not an easy place for Transgender people, especially those who can't or don't want to 'pass'. For her to come out at that age as well is important in a story sense as well as reasonable. We always see in manga and anime that there's wild or horrible bullying that goes on in middle school and maybe some people go "Nah. They're just kids, they don't really do that..."
Yeah they do. They're especially cruel at that age. I won't go into detail about the stuff that happened to me at that age, just sum it up by saying I had an unfortunate name, to be in an unfortunate place and once got told by someone that he wished I'd died in the car crash we had so then he'd have some cake to eat...
They're monsters.
That changes as kids get closer to being adults. More and more the things inside us build til we can't stop them bursting out without considerable mental trauma and then we suddenly find... Only the really stupid bother to make a big deal of it anymore. The people around us are more concerned with grades and growing up than someone telling the world who they are inside.

Now for the bit that got a few people going on the first page of the comments... Hime.

I think Hime's a bit dumb, but in a good way. I'm not sure coming out is in their future but I'll hedge my bets by using my own preferences to refer to them.
In any case what I saw the Crossdressing sequence as is not so much a statement to the world about gender not being what you wear, but more of a slightly misguided and sweet way of saying to Akira, "If people are going to cut you out because they can't see the you I've always seen... Then hell, I ain't letting you be the only 'freak' in school." They're crossdressing to alienate themselves and draw fire and ideally (unlikely they've thought this far) normalising queerness within their community. So that Akira is just seen as a normal person while Hime is the controversial freak...

Problem is 15yo's are dainty as china in some cases and I have a feeling either Hime is explicitly someone who's always been a crossdresser in private or may actually have been struggling with their own gender for as many years as they've known Akira's.

Who knows. The author most likely... I hope they're Trans themselves, otherwise this has a high chance of getting cringy real quick.
Still looking forward to it all though.

2641afdd-9dc4-4327-a1c3-a5b558c33522
joined Mar 12, 2014

I would be kinda disappointded if Hime would also come out as trans, I think it takes away from Akira's own journey as we would have two very similar stories - I would rather Hime have something different to go through, even if it might start with the idea she thinks she wants to be a man because of what Akira is going through but develops into something else

I really like how Akira is presented though, I never like the "trap" characters that look ridiculously feminine before any kind of transistion

I like the premise anyway for sure, interested to see where it goes

Yuu
joined Mar 28, 2015

There was no indication that Hime ever identified as male. At this point, it was an half-assed attempt at making Akira feel better, or make a point because she's furious that people are criticizing Akira for wanting to be herself.

It's counterproductive as people are only thinking she's making a fool of herself. A girl dressing as a guy is nowhere near as frowned upon than the reverse.

Hourou Musuko showed this before: Takatsuki goes to school in boy uniform, everyone shrugs and rolls their eyes up. Encouraged by this, Shuichi goes to school in girl uniform, all hell breaks loose and expulsion ensues.

Women, in Japan, are considered children until they are married. They can fool around a little until then.

Hqdefault%20(2)
joined Apr 5, 2018

Lots of yelling >~<

But it seems good so far im excited for more

Hinataskype
joined May 26, 2011

Calorie Monster

Hinataskype
joined May 26, 2011

Unrelated to that aside, these two chapters turned my opinion about the series and I'm excited to see where it goes from here. Hime and Akira are precious, I want to see the slow build to their relationship being something a little more... if Hime can build up the guts to tell her.

Soralaylaff
joined Oct 16, 2013

I dont see Hime as trans but more as her trying to stand up for Akira. I think the story is gonna be about Hime's personal growth and understanding Akira more because so far she's pretty much been acting on what she believes is good for Akira, but doesn't really know what Akira wants herself. So I think the main theme of the story is gonna be about what Hime's reason for wearing the male uniform is.

That being said I kinda hope Hime doesnt come out as trans as well since I think itll detract from her growth as Akira's friend and from Akira's story as transgender. I mean I guess it depends on how they handle it if Hime did come out as trans. For how the story is going so far, I dont think it would make for as strong of a story since right now it feels like a story about being an ally for transgenders.

Weiwei
joined Oct 9, 2017

I'm tired of representations of transwomen as 'men in dress'. I read mangas because mangas tend to show transwomen as women and not as disguised men.

So we have a big guy in a dress, tall, big hands (come on ffs, she's like 16...), shy, feminine, dumb but good natured... Typical cliche written by an 'ally'. That annoys the shit out of me.

Also it's always about our transition, as if we were all about that.

45b4e36d555ca184502130f8249354c2--flcl-furi-kuri2
joined Jul 19, 2018

I'm tired of representations of transwomen as 'men in dress'. I read mangas because mangas tend to show transwomen as women and not as disguised men.

So we have a big guy in a dress, tall, big hands (come on ffs, she's like 16...), shy, feminine, dumb but good natured... Typical cliche written by an 'ally'. That annoys the shit out of me.

Also it's always about our transition, as if we were all about that.

I don't get it. How does Akira being taller or having larger hands than Hime in any way detract from the story? I mean I could sort of get the complaint about how the mangaka draws the physiology of the characters if it was weirdly unrealistic but nothing here sticks out as such. Remember you are talking about a character that is physiologically male so Akira having physical traits that are in line with that really can't be faulted.

The "dress" is just the female version of the school uniform. Given the context of said character identifying as female I again don't really see the issue. You would have been happier if she stuck to the male uniform?

Fubukurri%20s
joined Aug 18, 2015

I'm tired of representations of transwomen as 'men in dress'. I read mangas because mangas tend to show transwomen as women and not as disguised men.

So we have a big guy in a dress, tall, big hands (come on ffs, she's like 16...), shy, feminine, dumb but good natured... Typical cliche written by an 'ally'. That annoys the shit out of me.

Also it's always about our transition, as if we were all about that.

Maybe I'm just not paying enough attention, but if it hadn't already been stated that Akira is trans she would have passed as cis to me.

Chinatsu%202
joined Jan 27, 2016

I'm tired of representations of transwomen as 'men in dress'. I read mangas because mangas tend to show transwomen as women and not as disguised men.

So we have a big guy in a dress, tall, big hands (come on ffs, she's like 16...), shy, feminine, dumb but good natured... Typical cliche written by an 'ally'. That annoys the shit out of me.

Also it's always about our transition, as if we were all about that.

This isn't that. Nothing in the narrative is saying Akira is just a disguised man (except characters who are very clearly intended to be wrong) and if that's how you perceive her then maybe you have some shit to work out for yourself when it comes to how you view non-passing trans women.

Unbedfgbsfgsgnannt
joined Aug 24, 2014

I am grateful for your post but I was merely making a stand point based on not that of perception and sociological ideals but more on the statement that human biology is that of male and female

But this isn't even biologically accurate, it's an oversimplification of human sexual variation for the sake of convenient adherence to existing societal norms not a scientific fact.

It is biologically accutate, what are you even talking about. There is the xx and the xy, male and female, and thats it.

Chinatsu%202
joined Jan 27, 2016

I am grateful for your post but I was merely making a stand point based on not that of perception and sociological ideals but more on the statement that human biology is that of male and female

But this isn't even biologically accurate, it's an oversimplification of human sexual variation for the sake of convenient adherence to existing societal norms not a scientific fact.

It is biologically accutate, what are you even talking about. There is the xx and the xy, male and female, and thats it.

That's just straight up not true. Your high school bio education is not comprehensive.

joined Jan 17, 2017

@Darkover
Just gonna say it's way more complicated than that and these aren't even particularly edge cases https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm

joined Sep 24, 2018

Ironically, manga tends not to give a damn about the whole "representation and identity" crap western media likes to put on a pedestal.

This isn't because the authors are insert-phobic or whatever. It's more that while western portrayals pander the hell out of the whole victimhood and "diversity" aspect of it and politicize it to hell and back, Japanese ones would rather just have a good character. That and you try to tell them there's more than 2 genders and to use people's preferred pronouns and it'll go way over their heads. They haven't and don't need to be exposed to that kind of shitfest.

last edited at Feb 20, 2019 9:29AM

Untitle435ed34qwrqwd
joined May 15, 2014

I am grateful for your post but I was merely making a stand point based on not that of perception and sociological ideals but more on the statement that human biology is that of male and female

But this isn't even biologically accurate, it's an oversimplification of human sexual variation for the sake of convenient adherence to existing societal norms not a scientific fact.

It is biologically accutate, what are you even talking about. There is the xx and the xy, male and female, and thats it.

That's just straight up not true. Your high school bio education is not comprehensive.

it is true though, ignoring that fact is like ignoring the whole struggle of trans people.

GendoIkari Uploader
Tsuglenda
joined Aug 10, 2011

it is true though, ignoring that fact is like ignoring the whole struggle of trans people.

I fail to see how intersex persons existing is even tangentially dismissive of trans persons, especially since one does not preclude the other.

joined Sep 1, 2016

I am grateful for your post but I was merely making a stand point based on not that of perception and sociological ideals but more on the statement that human biology is that of male and female

But this isn't even biologically accurate, it's an oversimplification of human sexual variation for the sake of convenient adherence to existing societal norms not a scientific fact.

It is biologically accutate, what are you even talking about. There is the xx and the xy, male and female, and thats it.

That's just straight up not true. Your high school bio education is not comprehensive.

it is true though, ignoring that fact is like ignoring the whole struggle of trans people.

uh. no. it. it isn't. it's not ignoring the struggle of trans people to point out that intersex people exist. i don't. see how we've made this leap.

I mean, aeginidae just posted it:

@Darkover
Just gonna say it's way more complicated than that and these aren't even particularly edge cases https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm

Anyway, here's me trying to crawl out of the pit of discourse that erupts in the comments for every manga with a trans character in it: I like this manga because the characters are cute and likeable, the art is expressive, and most of the comedic beats land. I'm really curious to see where it'll go, especially with the dynamic set up in chapter four. (also the kitten on ch4 page 1 is amazing.)

joined Jan 26, 2019

I don't get the "man in a dress" complaint when it comes to Akira. She looks fine to me.

Soralaylaff
joined Oct 16, 2013

Ironically, manga tends not to give a damn about the whole "representation and identity" crap western media likes to put on a pedestal.

This isn't because the authors are insert-phobic or whatever. It's more that while western portrayals pander the hell out of the whole victimhood and "diversity" aspect of it and politicize it to hell and back, Japanese ones would rather just have a good character. That and you try to tell them there's more than 2 genders and to use people's preferred pronouns and it'll go way over their heads. They haven't and don't need to be exposed to that kind of shitfest.

You...are commenting on a manga that is giving a damn about "representation and identity"...

Seriously, what's wrong with creating series with good characters AND representation?

Untitle435ed34qwrqwd
joined May 15, 2014

it is true though, ignoring that fact is like ignoring the whole struggle of trans people.

I fail to see how intersex persons existing is even tangentially dismissive of trans persons, especially since one does not preclude the other.

i was trying to say the opposite actually XD I was refuring to that there are only x and y cromosons and dismising thoughs is kinda like saying being gay is a choice

last edited at Feb 20, 2019 4:02PM

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