I really don't understand the point of bothering to identifying oneself as agender to others. Basically, this just means the person has no sense of gender and thus is completely indifferent to gender rolls and what society sees them as, right? So basically if they are completely indifferent and neutral when it comes to the idea of gender then they can pretty much just roll with whatever is easiest and fits the situation best aka if they are physically male they would use the guys bathroom. They would also have no objection to society treating them as male because the entire idea of gender rolls are just meaningless to them.

It's not that they see gender roles as meaningless or are indifferent to them but that they don't fit into either male or female. For many agender people, being perceived as male and being perceived as female are both distressing, and they don't want to be thought of or treated as either. To put it another way, it's not that they don't care, but that they care about not being male and they also care about not being female.

Well first
1. Agender people are trans since they still don't identify as assigned gender.
2. Not always, I don't want to be perceived as male but I am not female. Most of my dysphoria is over not being feminine enough but I find the idea of checking a box for gender so obnoxious, I don't participate in gender.
3. One reason the insistence on only writing trans women being with cis men is toxic, is that we aren't all straight. I'm a trans lesbian and proud. And trust me that's the vast majority of trans literature written by cis people

I don't understand. Doesn't agender simply mean without gender? If you care about how others perceive your gender doesn't that mean you have one you prefer to think of yourself as, whatever that might be? If you don't think of yourself as having a gender then why would it matter what other people think? In the end the opinions of others are meaningless anyway.

I am perhaps unusual in that gender rolls and cliches have always appeared pretty much meaningless to me. I mean they are completely imaginary to begin with. What makes one behavior masculine and another feminine? Gender rolls are nothing more than stereo types to begin with so why are people so hung up on the idea? Just because somebody doesn't match a stereo type doesn't mean they are somehow any less a part of that group nor should they care if they are or not. It would be a bit like claiming somebody isn't really British because they don't like tea or have a dry sense of humor etc.

I guess for most people gender stereo types are some sort of deeply wired part of their ego or personality so it's somehow a huge emotional deal if they don't conform to that stereotype? I guess the question to ask is for most people is it normal to care if others view your behavior as being more like that of the gender that is opposite of what you identify yourself to be and if so why?

For me it has always just been pretty much meaningless which is why I just don't understand why some people are so caught up in those rolls and how other's see them that it can have life shattering and tragically devastating consequences. I guess for most people their gender is like some really important part of their sense of self? Why is that? What is it like?

last edited at Nov 4, 2018 10:05AM

Sausage fest.

I'm not fine with my body I want it to be more feminine. I just don't want to check boxes and conform to either gender.

Plenty of non binary people take hormones wear binders etc

I really don't understand the point of bothering to identifying oneself as agender to others. Basically, this just means the person has no sense of gender and thus is completely indifferent to gender rolls and what society sees them as, right? So basically if they are completely indifferent and neutral when it comes to the idea of gender then they can pretty much just roll with whatever is easiest and fits the situation best aka if they are physically male they would use the guys bathroom. They would also have no objection to society treating them as male because the entire idea of gender rolls are just meaningless to them.

It's not that they see gender roles as meaningless or are indifferent to them but that they don't fit into either male or female. For many agender people, being perceived as male and being perceived as female are both distressing, and they don't want to be thought of or treated as either. To put it another way, it's not that they don't care, but that they care about not being male and they also care about not being female.

Well first
1. Agender people are trans since they still don't identify as assigned gender.
2. Not always, I don't want to be perceived as male but I am not female. Most of my dysphoria is over not being feminine enough but I find the idea of checking a box for gender so obnoxious, I don't participate in gender.
3. One reason the insistence on only writing trans women being with cis men is toxic, is that we aren't all straight. I'm a trans lesbian and proud. And trust me that's the vast majority of trans literature written by cis people

I don't understand. Doesn't agender simply mean without gender? If you care about how others perceive your gender doesn't that mean you have one you prefer to think of yourself as, whatever that might be? If you don't think of yourself as having a gender then why would it matter what other people think? In the end the opinions of others are meaningless anyway.

I am perhaps unusual in that gender rolls and cliches have always appeared pretty much meaningless to me. I mean they are completely imaginary to begin with. What makes one behavior masculine and another feminine? Gender rolls are nothing more than stereo types to begin with so why are people so hung up on the idea? Just because somebody doesn't match a stereo type doesn't mean they are somehow any less a part of that group nor should they care if they are or not. It would be a bit like claiming somebody isn't really British because they don't like tea or have a dry sense of humor etc.

I guess for most people gender stereo types are some sort of deeply wired part of their ego or personality so it's somehow a huge emotional deal if they don't conform to that stereotype? I guess the question to ask is for most people is it normal to care if others view your behavior as being more like that of the gender that is opposite of what you identify yourself to be and if so why?

For me it has always just been pretty much meaningless which is why I just don't understand why some people are so caught up in those rolls and how other's see them that it can have life shattering and tragically devastating consequences. I guess for most people their gender is like some really important part of their sense of self? Why is that? What is it like?

i have to second this. this has been me my whole life. i don't particularly IDENTIFY as female, i don't FEEL like it, beyond having a female body. what does that even feel like? i have quite a few mannish traits, but neither do i want to be male. and personally, i really don't care. i was born female, so i play the role, i.e. use female restrooms lol, just don't exactly feel it. i just feel like....me. that's the best answer i've ever been able to come to. i'm just me, and i don't need more than that. i'm me and i travel around in a female body so to speak lol, and i myself am genderless. i mean if you think about it, if who we are, what makes us, us, is our souls, do souls really have a gender to begin with? if souls exist, our bodies really are nothing more than our vehicles to move us through life. some people just happen to be unhappy with the make and model given to them, while i'm here thinking who cares what kind it is they are all vehicles. while i prefer having the female body, for it's very distinct advantages, not like i couldn't make myself at home in a male one. i've had dreams of being one on occasion in fact. anyways i'm kind of rambling at this point and i'm sure offending tons of people by now.

1. As an amusing side note, I experienced the water splash event in my first year of high school. Complete with the self righteous attitude the perpetrator loved showing off. As they walked away I caught up and dumped my drink bottle on them. I then asked how it felt being so graphically denigrated. The look on their face was priceless. Nobody in my year group tried that stunt for the rest of high school ^_^ .

The childhood friend actually kind of makes me excited to see what happens next. Are they actually gonna tackle transphobic talking points? I hope so, manga rarely deal with things like transphobia.

Hate to be the killjoy but this is exactly how it's going to go: Tetsu is going to back off because he doesn't want to make things hard for Mogu. Both are going to take this distance hard and childhood bitch is going to try to reason Mogu into the person she thinks he needs to be still oblivious to what Mogu really wants. This is only going to make shit harder for Mogu and then she'll probably take the hint and "allow" the two to get together.

I mean while I'd love for this story to dig deeper, I don't think the author is doing quite the deep dive here. I'd say it's going down a rather formulaic path at this point.

With this latest chapter I'm inclined to agree with sirflimflam. Guess I'll have to wait and see. One can only hope.

I really hope that Tetsu just says I'm not dating a man or a woman

I love how seriously this takes genderfeels of all sorts. I definitely feel empathy for both Mei and Mogu, and the other characters are great too. Given the way Childhood Friend has acted, I'm actually optimistic--everyone at the cafe is accepting and supportive, if confused (but acting in good faith). So I feel like what's going to happen is the conflict between inclusive supportive thinking and reactionary cishet-normative thinking.

PS - Local trans pal here. Maybe I can clear up some of the confusion some people have regarding Mogu's relationship with gender.

Part of the agender experience is not wanting to be assigned, which makes it really difficult because society is so binary. That's actually something I'm loving from this series: Mogu doesn't dress femininely because they want to be perceived as female, it's because they're distancing themself from masculinity. And when they got Ten to design an outfit that's androgynous it made them really happy, and that's hard to find for AMAB NBs.

Another thing is with gender roles is that they're cultural. Japan has an interesting history with its relationship to gender and sexuality, but putting that aside, it's hard to declare yourself NB because the binary roles of male and female are so strict (not that its easy in other places). Like a lot of collectivist societies, Japan values categories, often to the detriment of people who are outliers (and all the people who would be outliers but are scared of marginalization).

And lastly, being agender doesn't mean "not caring about gender", it means refusal to be assigned with one. So, an agender person could very much care more about being assigned than a cis person. Of course, some agender people genuinely don't care what other people think, but humans are social creatures, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that many of them do care. It's especially a big deal when there is social pressure to behave one way or another.

last edited at Dec 28, 2018 1:12PM

For the record tetsu is in a gay relationship in the sense his partner is AMAB however if Mogu was a binary trans woman it would be str8. However since Mogu is neither a man nor a woman it's whatever Tetsu wants

I'm starting to think that Suzu might have a boyfriend, it's just a suspicion though.

I'm starting to think that Suzu might have a boyfriend, it's just a suspicion though.

I think this might even be a sequel to his story, but thatd just be weird

last edited at Jan 10, 2019 9:56PM

Look how happy big sis is now that Tetsu is finally gonna stop calling her "bro". Tetsu is kind of a crappy brother.

Dislike for Mogu's childhood friend rising with her every appearance. Her only saving grace is that she seems to instinctually view Mei, the only fully MTF person in the group she's met, as a girl. So she's got that going for her, I guess.

Look how happy big sis is now that Tetsu is finally gonna stop calling her "bro". Tetsu is kind of a crappy brother.

I know right? I'm surprised it took him so long but I'm glad he finally did. It was really heart warming.

Dislike for Mogu's childhood friend rising with her every appearance. Her only saving grace is that she seems to instinctually view Mei, the only fully MTF person in the group she's met, as a girl. So she's got that going for her, I guess.

I'm hoping that Childhood Friend-chan is a closeted lesbian, based on her blushing reaction to Suzu being gay and how she prefers Mogumo to dress girly.

I've said it before, but I really appreciate how this manga is so supportive of non-traditional genders and sexuality. It's pretty rare to see acceptance and alliance with minimal angst. It's nice how it deals with some of the internal despair over discovering queerness; the whole series feels like a safe space in a good way.

Sorry, can't like this.

There's a severe lack of girls loving girls, for one.

All the cross-dressers are just drawn as cute girls, for two. They are not believable cross-dressers. Some people might gloss over this, but I just can't;

Last but not least, it tries too hard to be "all inclusive" and present a catalog of various flavors of gender identities, much like Shimanami Tasogare, which I didn't like that much either because of that. It creates a feeling of being a disjointed story, showing the trajectories of various people and is full of pompous gendersplaining at every corner.

I can understand that some people like this because it explores various gender identities, but overall, the story is very cliche and boring. And I primarily read manga for the stories, not only because the theme is appealing.

I don't dislike manga about gay men. I find Shimura Takako's manga to be real masterpieces.

But this... meh.It's immature.

This most recent chapter literally just showed a girl being attracted to another girl but whatever

KawaiiSuika posted:

This most recent chapter literally just showed a girl being attracted to another girl but whatever

I'm not sure she's actually a lesbian. She got androphobia, for sure, but both people she's supposedly attracted to are actually somewhat of a fuzzy gender. As of now, she's the only AFAB of the catalog.

I was talking about Mei, she is clearly shown attached to childhood friend-chan and there's nothing fuzzy about her gender

All the cross-dressers are just drawn as cute girls, for two. They are not believable cross-dressers. Some people might gloss over this, but I just can't;

As people have pointed out before, the cross-dressers have male characteristics in their models, such as slightly wider shoulders and muscles. As ergzay pointed out, if you look at https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/fukakai_na_boku_no_subete_o_ch04#10 you can see their muscles and wide shoulders. In https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/fukakai_na_boku_no_subete_o_ch07#18 you can see the masculine shoulders and Ten's hands are bigger "man hands".
This combined with the fact that Tetsuo looks a bit feminine (because of the art style) and it's not really too unrealistic to say they're actually cross-dressers.

It's immature.

It's a story about teens discovering themselves, of course it's going to be immature. Most romance anime and manga are immature, since they're between young people.

I didn't mean the characters were immature. I meant the writing was immature.

Shimura Takako does a much better job of writing about "teens discovering themselves". She doesn't try to be cute, she tries to make her stories deeper and they have a much stronger impact, IMO.

This, here, is basically a "Cute girls doing cute things" manga, with a genders twist to it. The author is obviously a doujin artist that got recently serialized.

last edited at Jan 11, 2019 3:30PM

This, here, is basically a "Cute girls doing cute things" manga, with a genders twist to it. The author is obviously a doujin artist that got recently serialized.

I don't see a whole lot of resemblance to cute-girls-doing-cute-things manga, except maybe in the sense that it's somewhat a slice-of-life story. The main theme in the manga appears to be about understanding and accepting yourself and those different from you. This has been especially apparent in the latest chapter, with Tetsu trying to come to terms with his attraction to Mogu, and what that means about himself and his identity.

This theme has been present throughout the entire story as well. The first story arc, chapters one through four, was driven by Mei's frustration with Mogu who was uncomfortable with the "girlyboy" label. Mei felt that being a "girlyboy" was the only acceptable way to even approach being a girl.

Of course, Mogu went to the cafe in the first place because they were persuaded by Tetsu that they'd be accepted there.

By the end of the arc Mei realized she was happiest just being a girl, with no pretenses, and that it was okay do that. Mogu was, quite possibly for the very first time, completely accepted by her peers. There was actual, real growth. Hopefully that continues!

I would talk about the continuation of these themes in the second arc, but I'm tired. Maybe I'll do it some other time.

I only found out about this manga today and I'm honestly pretty impressed with it. it's not perfect, but I can see the author trying, and I'm happy with that. Hope it doesn't continue on for ages with a love triangle. I have a suspicion Kotone might be gay though, and that maybe she'll hook up with Mei. Hard to say right now. She definitely doesn't have a chance against Tetsu though... a different kind of Plot Armor I suppose.

edit: also

KawaiiSuika posted:

This most recent chapter literally just showed a girl being attracted to another girl but whatever

I'm not sure she's actually a lesbian. She got androphobia, for sure, but both people she's supposedly attracted to are actually somewhat of a fuzzy gender. As of now, she's the only AFAB of the catalog.

Yeah, it's a bit early to put on the yuri goggles. The way she seems to respond favorably to cute, "feminine" appearances and clothing (as shown by her reaction to Mogu's borrowed clothes and... Mei in general) suggests it's a possibility, but I don't see enough clues to say it decisively yet. It's a path the story could take, and there's suggestions, but it's far from certain at this point.

last edited at Jan 11, 2019 11:59PM

Yeah, it's a bit early to put on the yuri goggles. The way she seems to respond favorably to cute, "feminine" appearances and clothing (as shown by her reaction to Mogu's borrowed clothes and... Mei in general) suggests it's a possibility, but I don't see enough clues to say it decisively yet. It's a path the story could take, and there's suggestions, but it's far from certain at this point.

I was talking about Mei, specifically when she gets all blushy and has like hearts and stuff. And I agree it's not certain, I was just pointing out that there very well could be some Yuri in the future.

To my knowledge, there are very few serialized manga that actively discuss gender and sexuality, which is a deep and complex topic, so I'm a little confused about calling it immature. Some aspects may be cliche, and if there were a greater canon of transgender manga out there then I'd concede it, but it's also going into uncharted territory. The confusion in this very thread regarding agender identity and socialization is evidence of that.

Also, we're only 8 chapters in, and the manga has already discussed NB-phobia from within the queer community, internalized cissexism and homophobia, dealing with heterosexist/cissexist friends, and social isolation caused by cisnormativity. These are heavy topics, and I'm glad someone's creating a work that deals with them in an optimistic light.

Yeah the diversity of gender stuff is a little contrived, but so is the Breakfast Club for having characters from different cliques, or how characters in stories usually don't have the same first name, or any of the other coincidences that authors use to help tell the story. Having a diverse cast helps explore different topics, so that's not a weakness, it's a feature.

That said, I'm transgender so I'm obviously biased, but I hope I make sense.