I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

It's not like Satou had any other choice, everything Shouko did led her to her own death. If Satou let her live, she'd go straight to the police.

Killing her friend and set her corpse on fire
Poor girl she found a good boyfriend was at the wrong place...

I know its futile, but a part of me still hopes this ends happier than the anime did.

That's guilt

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

Finally a sane person that gets it, & here I thought I was the only one.

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

The whole point is that she's evading the police.

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

She didn't kidnap her though.

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

It's not like Satou had any other choice, everything Shouko did led her to her own death. If Satou let her live, she'd go straight to the police.

Don't need to theorise what happened. Shouko actually led Asahi to Satou's home, who was not only mentally unstable, but also brought with him a bat with every intention (and ended up did in the anime) assaulting Satou with it. If Satou was not running away at the time, she would have opened the door with a bat heading for her head. Or being kidnapped and gotten her finger nails ripped off unless she hand over Shio

Two wrong does not make one right though. That was a tragedy though, that Shouko didn't trust Satou to run things through with her before taking that picture. And that Satou didn't trust Shouko's intervention and jumped at the most brutal option.

last edited at Nov 13, 2018 1:29AM

Don't need to theorise what happened. Shouko actually led Asahi to Satou's home, who was not only mentally unstable, but also brought with him a bat with every intention (and ended up did in the anime) assaulting Satou with it. If Satou was not running away at the time, she would have opened the door with a bat heading for her head. Or being kidnapped and gotten her finger nails ripped off unless she hand over Shio

Two wrong does not make one right though. That was a tragedy though, that Shouko didn't trust Satou to run things through with her before taking that picture. And that Satou didn't trust Shouko's intervention and jumped at the most brutal option.

Huh? What are you talking about. That's not what happened. Shouko didn't lead anyone anywhere. Due to things she happened to observe, she had a (correct) suspicion that Satou had Shio. Instead of calling the police, she gave her friend the benefit of the doubt and went to go see for herself. When she saw Shio, she did the reasonable thing of sending a picture of Shio to her brother, who until then didn't even know if his sister was alive. Knowing what she knew, and being in the situation she was in, sending that picture was simply the only ethical thing to do. She didn't tell him where Shio was, she just sent him proof that the sister he had been searching for was alive. Satou then murdered her. That's where we are now.

If anyone tells Asahi Shio's location, it's Mitsuboshi. Shouko's picture just has a door number in it, which is completely useless for locating someone unless you already know the address. Again, that picture is 100% useless when it comes to determining the location it was taken. Just from looking at it, it could be one of millions of apartments in the Tokyo area.

Also, whatever you think about how Satou acquired Shio, legally she's a kidnapper. You can't just take abandoned children into your home and keep them without alerting the authorities, especially when you know for a fact that their family is looking for them. That's child abduction.

Shouko jumped to some conclusions, but every assumption she made was proven correct by subsequent events. She thought Satou abducted Shio. She was right. She thought she needed to take a picture of Shio and send it to Asahi immediately since she might not have a chance later. She was right. Her only incorrect assumptions were that Satou would listen to her, and that Satou would let her leave.

Edit: and don't try to say that Shouko is somehow caused her own death by taking the picture. Satou would have killed anyone who saw her and Shio together. Regardless of whether she took that picture or not, her fate was sealed when she let herself be seen by Satou.

last edited at Nov 13, 2018 4:03AM

Yes,IMO Shouko didn't have the intention to report the police since the beginning. If she did, after learning Satou & Shio's hideout from Aunty, she could have lurked near Room 1208 to see with her own eyes that Shio really lived with Satou, then walked away quietly to report the cop. And to be surely safe from Satou's attack range, she could have monitored Room 1208 by a binocular from the opposite building until she saw Shio and then went to the cop. Satou would get the cop's surprise visit and have to pay for her sins without even knowing the cause of her Paradise Lost.

If Shouko cared only for Asahi, she could have reported him instead of the cop. Satou would get Asahi's surprise attack with his bat, get KOed and have Shio snatched away from her.

Shouko must know about the shutter sound of her smartphone. This means she intended to confront Satou to sincerely talk to her about Shio matter. Shouko was able to backstab Satou easily after learning from Aunty, but she didn't do it because she highly value Satou. At the time she failed to accept Satou family (Aunty) by understandable cowardice, she burst into tear apologizing Satou (who had already walked away). After that, during her conversation with Asahi, she blamed herself so much as to say she deserve to die for letting Satou down.

For me, the poor girl was stupid but her heart was in the right place.

Shawn posted:

Satou is a horrible friend.

Maybe but Shoko was kinda stupid herself. Outright betraying your clearly unstable friend right in front of her like that was an incredibly idiotic idea no matter how you look at it. Sato was wrong to kill Shoko, Shoko was wrong to betray Sato like that. And within the logic laid forth by the series, Sato's actions, despite being despicable, nonetheless make sense.

schuyguy posted:

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

People aren't arguing the point as well as they should be but it's not like that at all. It's more like earning the trust of an abused animal then betraying that trust while they're still not over their abuse. Wrong or not, it's going to put them in a mental state to defend themselves and what's important to them.

schuyguy posted:

Huh? What are you talking about. That's not what happened. Shouko didn't lead anyone anywhere. Due to things she happened to observe, she had a (correct) suspicion that Satou had Shio. Instead of calling the police, she gave her friend the benefit of the doubt and went to go see for herself. When she saw Shio, she did the reasonable thing of sending a picture of Shio to her brother, who until then didn't even know if his sister was alive. Knowing what she knew, and being in the situation she was in, sending that picture was simply the only ethical thing to do. She didn't tell him where Shio was, she just sent him proof that the sister he had been searching for was alive. Satou then murdered her. That's where we are now.

This is rather strongly missing the point. It should have been obvious to Shoko that Sato's mental state was iffy at best considering what she'd seen from her aunt as well as the fact she currently suspected her of having kidnapped a child. On top of that Sato had explained pretty straightforwardly from what I recall that people tend to abandon her after getting too close. All of these are warning signs that taking this course of action would not end well for Shoko. And Shoko didn't even attempt to find out what really happened. She just immediately jumped straight to believing a total stranger and assumed her supposed best friend was awful without even giving Sato a chance to even attempt to address the situation.

This is rather strongly missing the point. It should have been obvious to Shoko that Sato's mental state was iffy at best considering what she'd seen from her aunt as well as the fact she currently suspected her of having kidnapped a child. On top of that Sato had explained pretty straightforwardly from what I recall that people tend to abandon her after getting too close. All of these are warning signs that taking this course of action would not end well for Shoko. And Shoko didn't even attempt to find out what really happened. She just immediately jumped straight to believing a total stranger and assumed her supposed best friend was awful without even giving Sato a chance to even attempt to address the situation.

I can agree that Shouko's action might have been unwise from perspective of personal preservation, though I'd contend that she really had no way of knowing how violent and dangerous Satou was. To her it just looked like Satou was sad and withdrawn.

But saying that Shouko is culpable for her own death is simply delusional. No, she didn't jump straight to believing a total stranger and assuming her friend was awful. Here's the chain of evidence: Mitsuboshi told her Satou had Shio. She didn't believe him. She later heard Mitsuboshi talking to Satou on the phone about Shio. Even after that, she didn't assume Satou was awful—if she had, she would've just called the police. Instead, she went to go talk to her to get the whole story.

First she went to Satou's apartment and found out that Satou had lied—she didn't even live in the apartment that she had told Shouko was her home. Then once she found out where Satou actually lived, she went there to confront her. You make it sound like she did something awful, when all she did was go to her friend's house to talk to her. "Attempting to find out what happened" was exactly what Shouko was doing. Her course of action was the only way she could get Satou to explain what was going on.

The reason Shouko got into the situation leading to her death was that she cared too much. Yes, she cared about Asahi and wanted to find out about his missing sister. But if that was her only motivation, she wouldn't have gone into that apartment herself. The main reason she she put herself in danger because she cared about Satou and wanted to be there for her friend. She didn't want to get Satou in trouble. She wanted to give her a chance to explain herself. In return, Satou murdered her.

last edited at Nov 13, 2018 5:14AM

With 'friends' like Shouko, you don't need enemies.

You make it sound like she did something awful, when all she did was go to her friend's house to talk to her.

And then instantly snitch. They're not friends, either.

schuyguy posted:

I can agree that Shouko's action might have been unwise from perspective of personal preservation, though I'd contend that she really had no way of knowing how violent and dangerous Satou was. To her it just looked like Satou was sad and withdrawn.

I'd have to disagree here. While that may be what she took from it, the encounter with Sato's aunt and how Sato handled that should've been a clear tell that Shoko should be cautious. Sato was private, not withdrawn. And when Shoko pressed her on being so private Sato gave her a chance and hinted at or stated outright (it's been awhile so I forget which of the two) that people always abandon her when she lets them in like Shoko was insisting on. And Shoko immediately went and proved her right. And after that the next Shoko really comes into play in Sato's life she seems to be working against Sato from Sato's point of view.

The main reason she she put herself in danger because she cared about Satou and wanted to be there for her friend. She didn't want to get Satou in trouble. She wanted to give her a chance to explain herself. In return, Satou murdered her.

And this is the major problem. You're leaving out a vital detail. Blatantly betraying Sato right in front of her. And then I can't go reference it because I forget which chapter this was actually in but I'm pretty sure she lied straight to Sato's face when Sato called her out on what she did which ended up sealing her fate. She cared about Sato but refused to be honest with her while working against Sato. And whether she was going to give Sato a chance or not, it's simple logic that that's how it would have looked to Sato.

Again, to emphasize, I am not saying Sato's actions were right. I'm saying they were logically consistent with her personality. I'm also saying that Sato being in the wrong does not put Shoko in the right. She was in the wrong as well and it's directly her actions that made Sato feel like she'd been put into a corner and thus had what she feels is her very livelihood threatened. This would have been avoidable if Shoko had put more thought into her actions.

Largely the difference between our views seems to be you pity Shoko but condemn Sato. I pity them both. The entire situation around Shoko's death sucks for both of them. It cost Shoko her life and cost Sato much of what little sanity and trust in others she had remaining.

With 'friends' like Shouko, you don't need enemies.

You make it sound like she did something awful, when all she did was go to her friend's house to talk to her.

And then instantly snitch. They're not friends, either.

Never heard wiser words

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

She didn't kidnap her though.

Yes, she did. Just because Shio isn't fighting to get away or even necessarily wants to get away, Shio is still like 4 years old. She doesn't understand what is going on. In fact Satou is very insistent on Shio staying indoors for a variety of reasons, chief among them is jealousy not wanting to share Shio with the world.

For all intents and purposes, Satou is a kidnapper.

It kind of amuses me how much people are looking for a way to justify Satou's actions. Really, none of it is justifiable. She's messed up, she has a bad upbringing and it really messed up her mind. I'd say she was always just a sociopath but it's actually pretty clear she's starting to have strong emotions about what she's doing. That's the end of it. Everything she is doing does not "make sense'. She's crazy, and it's sad. I just hope this little story doesn't end with Shio dying.

last edited at Nov 13, 2018 10:54AM

I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

She didn't kidnap her though.

Yes, she did. Just because Shio isn't fighting to get away or even necessarily wants to get away, Shio is still like 4 years old. She doesn't understand what is going on. In fact Satou is very insistent on Shio staying indoors for a variety of reasons, chief among them is jealousy not wanting to share Shio with the world.

For all intents and purposes, Satou is a kidnapper.

It kind of amuses me how much people are looking for a way to justify Satou's actions. Really, none of it is justifiable. She's messed up, she has a bad upbringing and it really messed up her mind. I'd say she was always just a sociopath but it's actually pretty clear she's starting to have strong emotions about what she's doing. That's the end of it. Everything she is doing does not "make sense'. She's crazy, and it's sad. I just hope this little story doesn't end with Shio dying.

She took her from the street, which means she didn't actually kidnap her (kidnap, verb: abduct (someone) and hold them captive. Satou is doing no such thing).
The reason she doesn't tell the authorities are because they would take Shio back to her mother (who left her out there in the first place). Then she doesn't go further because she's scared of what might happen to Shio. These are minor reasons, mostly she's doing them for personal reasons, but they are still there.
I'm not saying she's a good person, but if you just write her off as crazy without considering any of the other details that the series presents, you're not going to get the entirety of the series.
Also, if Shio told her that she wanted to see her mum and/or brother again, Satou would let her do it (after Shio begs hard enough), because she wants Shio to be happy.

She took her from the street, which means she didn't actually kidnap her (kidnap, verb: abduct (someone) and hold them captive. Satou is doing no such thing).
The reason she doesn't tell the authorities are because they would take Shio back to her mother (who left her out there in the first place). Then she doesn't go further because she's scared of what might happen to Shio. These are minor reasons, mostly she's doing them for personal reasons, but they are still there.
I'm not saying she's a good person, but if you just write her off as crazy without considering any of the other details that the series presents, you're not going to get the entirety of the series.
Also, if Shio told her that she wanted to see her mum and/or brother again, Satou would let her do it (after Shio begs hard enough), because she wants Shio to be happy.

Most of that is irrelevant. You're not allowed to just take a kid, willing or not, into your house and house them there for an indeterminate amount of time. Especially someone under 5 years old, and this goes for a minor of any age in Japan. Young children are especially susceptible here. They do not have the mental capacity to decide what is right for them. You will get charged with kidnapping regardless of the opinions of the child. This is especially murky in Satou's case because of the nature of Shio's mental state. She's a child in a precarious situation and some "good Samaritan" takes her in and showers her with the "love" she desires. It's all kinds of messed up.

The reason she doesn't tell the authorities has nothing to do with her being reunited with the mother being a bad thing -- it's because she doesn't want to give her up. Shio is her "soul mate' and nothing is going to stand in the way of them being together. I mean she's pretty open about this fact numerous times. That's basically what this whole story is about. She murdered people to stay together.

You say she'd let her see her parents and brother again (whom I can only assume Shio has actually forgotten at this point due to the trauma of her past) but I have my doubts. Considering the lengths she's going to throw her brother and others off the scent, down to outright murder. I do not believe Satou would be able to cope with letting her go.

Honestly, my heart breaks for Satou. She finally finds something she can care about and has effectively fallen off the deep end in an attempt to keep it hers. It doesn't really detract from the seriously depraved path she is treading in this futile effort.

last edited at Nov 13, 2018 4:34PM

She took her from the street, which means she didn't actually kidnap her (kidnap, verb: abduct (someone) and hold them captive. Satou is doing no such thing).

Taking in and raising a child when you are not their legal guardian is a crime. It might not be legally considered kidnapping if the child willingly goes with you, but it's still child abduction, and is definitely illegal in basically every country, and under international law as well. Adoption is a strictly regulated process of transferring legal guardianship. If you take in a child without going through that process, you're committing a crime.

last edited at Nov 13, 2018 8:25PM

She took her from the street, which means she didn't actually kidnap her (kidnap, verb: abduct (someone) and hold them captive. Satou is doing no such thing).

Taking in and raising a child when you are not their legal guardian is a crime. It might not be legally considered kidnapping if the child willingly goes with you, but it's still child abduction, and is definitely illegal in basically every country, and under international law as well. Adoption is a strictly regulated process of transferring legal guardianship. If you take in a child without going through that process, you're committing a crime.

I’m hoping that commenters here are just so deep into this weirdly compelling story about a weird situation involving a whole fictional world full of weirdos that they temporarily forget what they actually know perfectly well in the real world:

If you find a small human being in the street, you don’t get to keep it. Full stop.

Circumstances, situations, personalities—none of that matters. You make sure the little human is safe, then you call the authorities.

But you all knew that.

Wait i thought the anime went past this and finished! Is the manga still ongoing?

hey yall i know you're having a heated debate or whatever but can mangas have different endings than the anime because i'm still pulling for them to cruise on out of japan and live a happy but unethical life somewhere in the bahamas

Huh? What are you talking about. That's not what happened. Shouko didn't lead anyone anywhere. Due to things she happened to observe, she had a (correct) suspicion that Satou had Shio. Instead of calling the police, she gave her friend the benefit of the doubt and went to go see for herself. When she saw Shio, she did the reasonable thing of sending a picture of Shio to her brother, who until then didn't even know if his sister was alive. Knowing what she knew, and being in the situation she was in, sending that picture was simply the only ethical thing to do. She didn't tell him where Shio was, she just sent him proof that the sister he had been searching for was alive. Satou then murdered her. That's where we are now.

Also, whatever you think about how Satou acquired Shio, legally she's a kidnapper. You can't just take abandoned children into your home and keep them without alerting the authorities, especially when you know for a fact that their family is looking for them. That's child abduction.

Shouko jumped to some conclusions, but every assumption she made was proven correct by subsequent events. She thought Satou abducted Shio. She was right. She thought she needed to take a picture of Shio and send it to Asahi immediately since she might not have a chance later. She was right. Her only incorrect assumptions were that Satou would listen to her, and that Satou would let her leave.

Edit: and don't try to say that Shouko is somehow caused her own death by taking the picture. Satou would have killed anyone who saw her and Shio together. Regardless of whether she took that picture or not, her fate was sealed when she let herself be seen by Satou.

You are making an angel out of Shoko now. The whole reason that she took Shio picture and sent it to Asahi, was to prove that she has a lead toward Shio. Most likely to get him to come back to her. Do you seriously think that if she was not killed, she won't give Satou's address to Asahi?

From an ethical and moral POV, What Shouko did was NOT a reasonable thing to do at all. If Shouko really wanted to help, she should have confronted Satou, telling her what she know, asking about the situation with Shio. From there on, she will know that Shio's mom already disbanded her and (Note!!) Shio has no recollection of her older brother. Whether she believe Shio or not in that situation, adding in the fact that Asahi has been homeless in the street and mentally unstable, her ethical option then will be limited down to a) utilitarian approach, let Shio staying with Satou because they are happier that way, then make it up to Asahi, or b) the deontology approach: notice the authority to take Shio away from both her mother, brother and Satou and send her to a foster care.

You accuse Satou of child abduction. Then you promote child abuse in the same sentence by proposing to send Shio back to her abusive mother (regardless of her reasoning) and her homeless brother. Conflicted much?

Satou would have killed anyone who saw her and Shio together? Why her aunt still alive then? Mitsuboshi? Why didn't she just kill Shouko right away, and instead of trying to get her to unlock her phone? If Shouko didn't act suspicious, take the picture and refuse to show who she sent it to, she would have lived. Satou KNEW that it's harder to kill someone than to manipulate them. That's the central of her yandere archetype

last edited at Nov 14, 2018 7:11AM