OMG, now I think I want to see ALL the girls kiss each other in a giant tongue-hockey jamboree.

It might do everybody good . . .
Lol

About Sayaka, up until now, she has put Nanami's feelings ahead of her own. So it would be out of character for her to admit her feelings now (unless she doesn't notice Yuu's and Nanami's relationship problems, which I doubt).

About Sayaka, up until now, she has put Nanami's feelings ahead of her own. So it would be out of character for her to admit her feelings now (unless she doesn't notice Yuu's and Nanami's relationship problems, which I doubt).

The first part is certainly true, but I'm not so sure the second sentence is still completely true. In Chap. 26 Sayaka was able to forthrightly tell Yuu that she loved Touko (and it's a mark of her trust in Yuu's integrity that she wasn't worried about Yuu telling anyone, including Touko). And in the play Sayaka and Touko played characters in a romantic relationship with a script that cut pretty close to the bone in its parallels to real life. So they've already had a sort of "practice" conversation where Sayaka (in character) described her romantic feelings for Touko (ditto).

So I think it's very easy to imagine circumstances on the school trip where Sayaka might voice her feelings, NOT in an attempt to actually get into a relationship with Touko, but in a situation where she had a choice between telling the truth and lying about how she feels.

I think she has to notice that something is up with Touko, and while Sayaka has been careful not to put pressure on Touko (except for going along with the revisions to the play), if the subject somehow came up in the course of their discussion, I just can't see Sayaka being actually deceptive to Touko about her own feelings--she's got too much pride and integrity for that.

last edited at Oct 29, 2018 10:28AM

I just looked at the ch36 raws and sadly it seems that it'll be about Sayaka and not about Touko and Yuu.. Don't get me wrong I love all characters in the manga, but after the end of ch35 I really want to see more progress between Touko and Yuu. Guess my gay heart will be patiently waiting for another month.

About Sayaka, up until now, she has put Nanami's feelings ahead of her own. So it would be out of character for her to admit her feelings now (unless she doesn't notice Yuu's and Nanami's relationship problems, which I doubt).

The first part is certainly true, but I'm not so sure the second sentence is still completely true. In Chap. 26 Sayaka was able to forthrightly tell Yuu that she loved Touko (and it's a mark of her trust in Yuu's integrity that she wasn't worried about Yuu telling anyone, including Touko). And in the play Sayaka and Touko played characters in a romantic relationship with a script that cut pretty close to the bone in its parallels to real life. So they've already had a sort of "practice" conversation where Sayaka (in character) described her romantic feelings for Touko (ditto).

So I think it's very easy to imagine circumstances on the school trip where Sayaka might voice her feelings, NOT in an attempt to actually get into a relationship with Touko, but in a situation where she had a choice between telling the truth and lying about how she feels.

I think she has to notice that something is up with Touko, and while Sayaka has been careful not to put pressure on Touko (except for going along with the revisions to the play), if the subject somehow came up in the course of their discussion, I just can't see Sayaka being actually deceptive to Touko about her own feelings--she's got too much pride and integrity for that.

If the subject of Sayaka's feelings specifically gets mentioned then, yes, it is a possibility. I can't imagine a situation that would result in that, though.

However, in a situation where her feelings aren't brought up and she's aware of Touko being troubled by not recognising Yuu's feelings she wouldn't add to the fire by confessing.

I just feel that Sayaka's feelings shouldn't be addressed until after Yuu and Nanami have sorted themselves out.

I just feel that Sayaka's feelings shouldn't be addressed until after Yuu and Nanami have sorted themselves out.

Well, on that score I trust the writer, who knows her business far better than I do. I'm just saying that, under the right circumstances, Sayaka could tell Touko how she feels without violating her established character.

Perhaps even more so after seeing the Chapter 36 raws. I wish I read Japanese at moments like these, but I do note that at the end of the chapter, Sayaka has a green light (for something) and is striding forward with a look of confidence on her face.

I just feel that Sayaka's feelings shouldn't be addressed until after Yuu and Nanami have sorted themselves out.

That however IMO is quite likely. Touko will be seeking advice. Who else could she talk to about it? Sayaka is her closest peer after Yuu.

I could see Sayaka snap if this were to happen, as in confess, or even dare to kiss - she has her limits too. On the other hand, a mature discussion with her could be equally likely. The aftermath of either of those will be a pain to read - as much as I don't like Sayaka as a character, I'm easy to empathise, and the grief she's gonna experience in either case is gonna be enormous.

And Touko needs to realise that she may truly be loved by others. Her whole issue IMO is the mistrust in feelings of others towards herself. The play, thanks to Yuu, helped Touko find love towards herself again, accept that she can be a Person, and a good one at that. Metaphorically, it drew another, real, world around her. Now, Yuu's confession brought her to the end of the old world as she knew it. All she needs is a kick to blow up the old world bubble and go to the new world. And that kick is likely to come from Sayaka.

last edited at Oct 29, 2018 11:39AM

I just feel that Sayaka's feelings shouldn't be addressed until after Yuu and Nanami have sorted themselves out.

That however IMO is quite likely. Touko will be seeking advice. Who else could she talk to about it? Sayaka is her closest peer after Yuu.

I could see Sayaka snap if this were to happen, as in confess, or even dare to kiss - she has her limits too. On the other hand, a mature discussion with her could be equally likely. The aftermath of either of those will be a pain to read - as much as I don't like Sayaka as a character, I'm easy to empathise, and the grief she's gonna experience in either case is gonna be enormous.

And Touko needs to realise that she may truly be loved by others. Her whole issue IMO is the mistrust in feelings of others towards herself. The play, thanks to Yuu, helped Touko find love towards herself again, accept that she can be a Person, and a good one at that. Metaphorically, it drew another, real, world around her. Now, Yuu's confession brought her to the end of the old world as she knew it. All she needs is a kick to blow up the old world bubble and go to the new world. And that kick is likely to come from Sayaka.

Sorry if I was unclear, Sayaka is the most likely person for Touko to talk to but Sayaka's feelings towards Touko wouldn't be discussed if/when they have the conversation likely person and Touko's relationship.

Having the person she thought would never love her and her best friend confessing to her so close together would not be good for Touko so I think Sayaka would withhold the confession until later.

last edited at Oct 29, 2018 12:43PM

And Touko needs to realise that she may truly be loved by others. Her whole issue IMO is the mistrust in feelings of others towards herself.

I think her mistrust in the feelings of others is not the main issue, but a consequence of it. Because it is not the case that she sees herself as pretty OK, but others as judging (that would typically make people bitter against others, which she is not).

Instead, she sees herself as being not valuable unless she does X Y Z (high grades, student council president, perfect behavior etc). And she believes others judge her the same way that she judges herself. Since she clearly applies to others a lower standard of what they need to do in order to be acceptable/valuable, than she does for herself (after all she seems fine with Yuu being low-key), it means she inherently puts herself beneath others UNLESS she does all these extra things. See the struggle there? At the same time, of course, she is self-centered because she is overly preoccupied with keeping this up just in order to be on the same level of value as everybody else.

It's a kind of low-grade narcissism (the personality disorder/character flaw, not the common use of the word). A higher degree of it would be if she needed to feel superior to others, or put others down, in order to feel valuable enough.

Narcissism? Come now. Touko is driven by a feeling of inadequacy and unreasonably high standards. That is hardly a diagnostic sign for narcissist personality disorder.

I did say low grade, for comparison purposes with how such a behavior could be much worse (I don't mean it's a diagnosis). If she responded to her feelings of inadequacy/low value by acting inferior/shy/all humble, OK. Which by the way is how most people act when they feel inadequate.

But from the moment that she goes and becomes "the perfection mask" and THEN starts making people around her indulge her in the act...yeah, the seed of narcissism right there. Yuu is snapping her out of it though.

Narcissism? Come now. Touko is driven by a feeling of inadequacy and unreasonably high standards. That is hardly a diagnostic sign for narcissist personality disorder.

I take the point that matsuri_wins is making, but agree that the word "narcissism" probably isn't real helpful. I'm no expert on such matters at all, so I don't know if there's a term for the self-centeredness aspect of low self-regard.

The narcissist thinks that they're fundamentally different than everyone else because they're superior to them; we're talking about someone who feels essentially inferior. But it's still all about them.

I'm amazed at how little it would take for Touko to come off as a really toxic and destructive personality, while in this story we still see her as a fundamentally great person who just needs an attitude adjustment to be perfectly OK (and who in fact is most likely in the middle of that very adjustment right now).

I.e., Make Yuu happy, Touko, and all will be forgiven. If not . . .

OMG, now I think I want to see ALL the girls kiss each other in a giant tongue-hockey jamboree.

It might do everybody good . . .
Lol

I laughed at that more than I think I should've.

last edited at Oct 29, 2018 1:52PM

Eh... I guess I really should expect to be timezoned/clockblocked every evening sigh
Tommorow waves hand

Just watched the dubbed version of the anime, do the voices put anyone else's teeth on edge ?

The narcissist thinks that they're fundamentally different than everyone else because they're superior to them; we're talking about someone who feels essentially inferior. But it's still all about them.

While not a diagnostic criterion, low self esteem is actually quite common in sub categories of narcissism. At the root, covert narcissists feel a deep sense of inadequacy and are hypersensitive to criticism and shame, so projecting superiority over and degrading other people is a defense mechanism.

Narcissism is basically dysfunctional regulation of self image and self esteem, so under different circumstances I can see how Touko could develop towards that. Thankfully she has people around her to steer her on a much better path.

Edit: better phrasing would be that narcissism is one "evolution" of dysfunctional regulation of self esteem/image

last edited at Oct 29, 2018 6:06PM

The narcissist thinks that they're fundamentally different than everyone else because they're superior to them; we're talking about someone who feels essentially inferior. But it's still all about them.

While not a diagnostic criterion, low self esteem is actually quite common in sub categories of narcissism. At the root, covert narcissists feel a deep sense of inadequacy and are hypersensitive to criticism and shame, so projecting superiority over and degrading other people is a defense mechanism.

Narcissism is basically dysfunctional regulation of self image and self esteem, so under different circumstances I can see how Touko could develop towards that. Thankfully she has people around her to steer her on a much better path.

Edit: better phrasing would be that narcissism is one "evolution" of dysfunctional regulation of self esteem/image

Notice, by the way, that Touko actually likes taking criticism in the theater group; since she's the most inexperienced, nobody expects her to be perfect, including herself.

Just another indication that she's a nice, talented chick with some notable hangups she needs to deal with, not a psychological time bomb. (I'd say that she was a bit of that, but Yuu helped defuse her.)

Notice, by the way, that Touko actually likes taking criticism in the theater group; since she's the most inexperienced, nobody expects her to be perfect, including herself.

Just another indication that she's a nice, talented chick with some notable hangups she needs to deal with, not a psychological time bomb. (I'd say that she was a bit of that, but Yuu helped defuse her.)

Of course, I'm sure Nakatani never intended to write her to be developing NPD. I'm just commenting that lack of self esteem and feelings of inferiority are not antithetical to being narcissistic.

The fact that Touko is adjusting post school play and willing to take criticism means she wasn't on the path to narcissism. However, one could easily write a dark spin on her dysfunctional self image (might make for an interesting derivative work). Narcissistic people won't necessarily engage in any abusive behavior at first. They can manipulate you into a feeling of comfort around them and then turn around and demand attention and praise from you, becoming more and more unreasonable over time.

Edit: just to clarify again that I think it could be interesting to explore how Touko's self image can develop into narcissism in an alternate set of events, not that the current story in anyway indicates she is narcissistic

last edited at Oct 29, 2018 8:54PM

I agree with the poster above. My little theory is that people handle feelings of inadequacy on a spectrum of coping mechanisms. Something like:

-- underachiever: feels inadequate and has no defense against these feelings, so ends up with low confidence, doesn't try stuff etc
-- self-oriented overachiever: defends against feeling inadequate by working very hard to achieve personal standards
--other-oriented overachiever: defends against feeling inadequate by working very hard to achieve whatever other people they care about set as the standard
--the pretender: pretends to be perfect to others, feels ashamed when others spot signs of imperfection
--the sensitive pretender: pretends to be perfect to others, then if someone spots imperfection, pressures that person into not pointing it out/indulging them in their pretense (Touko's case)
--the aggressive pretender: pretends to be perfect to others, then if someone spots imperfection can get upset/aggressive with that person
--the covert narcissist: pretends to be perfect and believes it, but because reality doesn't conform and they can still read reality, gets bitter and has the victim mentality
--the grandiose narcissist: the most well-known, pretends to be perfect and believes it no matter the reality

Anyway...too much thought for just a manga lol

last edited at Oct 29, 2018 9:58PM

Just watched the dubbed version of the anime, do the voices put anyone else's teeth on edge ?

yes

Notice, by the way, that Touko actually likes taking criticism in the theater group; since she's the most inexperienced, nobody expects her to be perfect, including herself.

Just another indication that she's a nice, talented chick with some notable hangups she needs to deal with, not a psychological time bomb. (I'd say that she was a bit of that, but Yuu helped defuse her.)

I agree. I don't find Touko a narcissist or any part of it. She's not trying to be "perfect" for the sake of people liking her as Touko, but her sister. This is how she viewed her sister. This is how she thought her sister was liked by others. This is who she was told to be like after her sister's death. Otherwise, she wouldn't care if people fell in love with her, and there would be no story here.

Have you guys ever gotten on discord? I saw a thread with the "Dynasty Discord" title. Just wondering, because I think it would be interesting to hear the back and forth from you guys.

Have you guys ever gotten on discord? I saw a thread with the "Dynasty Discord" title. Just wondering, because I think it would be interesting to hear the back and forth from you guys.

Well, technically, I did get on discord, but never on that server. Also, it's been ages since I visited discord.

I agree. I don't find Touko a narcissist or any part of it. She's not trying to be "perfect" for the sake of people liking her as Touko, but her sister. This is how she viewed her sister. This is how she thought her sister was liked by others. This is who she was told to be like after her sister's death. Otherwise, she wouldn't care if people fell in love with her, and there would be no story here.

What is so far not explained (or maybe I didn't pick it up) is why she wants to be viewed like her sister. Was she really told to be like that after her sister's death? Her parents seem nice enough. Maybe she just got this idea herself as a way of coping with the loss, but it does seem a bit unusual.

I am precisely saying that it would be great if Sayaka finds out (through a nice make out scene) that she feels friendship (obviously) and physical attraction for Touko, and not the "omg romantic love Touko must be mine or I will be unhappy" kinda thing, and moves on after the itch is over. Extremely normal even for adults, let alone for a teenager. She is a lez, Touko is smoking hot, they are close to each other...one thing leads to the other, so of course, she is going to think she is in love. But maybe she isn't.

Which by the way there is nothing wrong with that, true friendship is typically stronger than romantic love (that's why people either dump their lovers eventually or say that their lovers have become their best friends -- romantic love is, by its very nature, volatile). For the record, her denial phase aside, Yuu at first was kissing Touko simply because kissing her felt nice and she is physically attractive, and not because Yuu was "in love". And she still truly cared for Touko.

I think you need to bring down the romantic idealisms down a notch, my proposal would represent a very happy ending for Sayaka :P

So you just baselessly assume Sayaka isn't actually in love with Touko and also think that talking couldn't resolve that? And what IF the chemistry is there and Sayaka isn't a superficial lesbian who just would go for any girl she feels attractive? What if her love is true and this will hurt her even more? Your "realism" isn't real, it's just a surface view of what a crush is like, completely ignoring everything the manga established.

I didn't say friendship is bad. In fact this only can go down that route in the first place. I doubt Sayaka would break off friendship with Touko over this. Still no reason to have them make out just to satisfy your kiss boner.

Touko kissed Yuu, not the other way around. VERY different. And she didn't let her do it because it felt good or because she found her attractive, like she said herself she didn't feel anything from that. The reason she let Touko do it was because she wanted to see if she could come to feel those special feelings eventually. Also because Yuu has a complex about helping people, and Touko really needed that extended hand. She only started to like it when she developed feelings for Touko (but at that point she needed to deny it to herself).

Your proposal doesn't represent anything good, because you superimpose your own misguided ideas of how this would turn out on the story. Sorry, but your superficial physicality is not how romance works, especially in a fictional medium. So why don't you tone down your homegrown variety of what you think love and relationships are like and instead face the facts of what you are dealing with? ^__^