Well...in the case of Citrus, I believe many people converted from MeiYuzu to HaruYuzu over time because they wanted Yuzu to be happy and (correctly?) concluded Mei was not exactly a source of happiness lol So maybe it's more that fans can't help themselves but hope despite all odds? I'd say it's definitely a case of "Second Lead Syndrome".

Well...in the case of Citrus, I believe many people converted from MeiYuzu to HaruYuzu over time because they wanted Yuzu to be happy and (correctly?) concluded Mei was not exactly a source of happiness lol So maybe it's more that fans can't help themselves but hope despite all odds? I'd say it's definitely a case of "Second Lead Syndrome".

Of course, a lot of stories legitimately play up multiple possibilities for the ultimate pairing, in which case a variety of ships is built into the game. (The Answer Me 19XX series of Kdramas were all pretty decent, but they ran that "Guess the OTP" trope into the ground.)

But it's those series that play it in between the "OTP Set in Stone From the Start" ones and the "Merry Match Game" ones that make for the diehard shipper's heartbreak, where people keep thinking their preferred pairing still has a chance long after anyone without an emotional stake in the issue has known to let it go.

I understand that Sayaka is a well-liked character for very legitimate reasons, and readers would love to see her happy at the end, but she's been positioned all along as a plot facilitator, not a love rival.

I'd even say that if anyone could write a Touko x Sayaka ending without making a complete farce of the whole preceding story, it would be Nakatani-sensei. But even she can't, and of course she certainly won't.

last edited at Oct 27, 2018 11:03PM

Ehh... I wish I was woke enough too read all the posts you made while I was asleep, so I could properly answer... But I only read bits and parts, so I find myself unable of saying anything...

Oh, come on. I do think the story is pointing that it will be Yuu x Touko endgame. But it sure ain't shouting at this point. Someone mentioned there could be a troll ending Sayaka x Touko and Yuu x Forever Alone and I can see it happening (not that I want it to, I just think it would be rewarding for Sayaka to make out with Touko at least once and then move on).

Again, if Touko was seriously in love with Yuu, she wouldn't say she can't return her feelings, despite being fully aware that it hurts Yuu. Her emotions are blurry at best, and it's hard to know to which direction they will tilt. Like I wouldn't even be shocked if it turns out she doesn't want to date anyone because she wants to focus on herself and finding out who she really is etc.

Everything hinges on this Kyoto trip I believe lol "Sayaka, ganbatte!"

It has never stopped shouting my friend. There is literally not a single indicator for any other ship. You are lost in wishful thinking. Even the gorge that opened between Yuu and Touko is only them not being able to figure out their BLATANTLY OBVIOUS love for each other and position. The audience is supposed to know what it is, while the characters are in denial...

Touko is a complex character. She is seriously in love with Yuu, but she has severe issues with her self-image and made her love for Yuu hinge on a twisted promise. She has to overcome the mess of her own creation, but there was never any doubt that she loves Yuu. Seriously, I can't stress this enough. "Not being able to return your feelings" does not mean "I dont love you" in this context.
You may have a point on the "not dating anyone" at least for a while part.

And lastly... I just want you to answer honestly. How would Sayaka getting a kiss from Touko be a "reward" in this case? That will only hurt her more in the long run. We know this will end with Touko x Yuu and that Touko won't respond to Sayaka's feelings. Masochism is fine, but why do you need to hurt the characters more than necessary? Touko will feel like she betrayed Yuu, Sayaka will then realize that Touko doesn't love her and the kiss meant nothing... It's horrible. Is it for the sake of fanservice? Will it really make you happy to have an empty kiss like that?

The part that you put under "" is basically the kind of thing I encountered in most shoujo-ai manga I've read.

Please drop the "Shoujo Ai". This is a yuri community, we actually know what we are reading.

Yuri is just a subset of shoujo-ai.

facepalm
No. No it's not. Please BV. I have heard people make the false claim that Shoujo Ai is a subset of Yuri, but you managed to somehow be even more wrong ?
There is only Yuri. Shoujo Ai is a made up term in the West. It doesn't exist. Everything you ever thought was "Shoujo Ai" is labeled Yuri in Japan. Deal with it.

The part that you put under "" is basically the kind of thing I encountered in most shoujo-ai manga I've read.

Please drop the "Shoujo Ai". This is a yuri community, we actually know what we are reading.

Yuri is just a subset of shoujo-ai.

facepalm
No. No it's not. Please BV. I have heard people make the false claim that Shoujo Ai is a subset of Yuri, but you managed to somehow be even more wrong ?
There is only Yuri. Shoujo Ai is a made up term in the West. It doesn't exist. Everything you ever thought was "Shoujo Ai" is labeled Yuri in Japan. Deal with it.

Well, I guess that the saying my father says from time to time holds true here as well: "One learns while one lives.".

You are lost in wishful thinking. Even the gorge that opened between Yuu and Touko is only them not being able to figure out their BLATANTLY OBVIOUS love for each other and position. The audience is supposed to know what it is, while the characters are in denial...

Chill. I'm not lost in wishful thinking, because I know that Nakatani wouldn't have any other ending except YuuxTouko, otherwise sensitive readers would lose their shit and riot lol

I am convinced that Yuu loves Touko and has for a long time. But I'm not convinced at all that Touko loves Yuu. Maybe we have different definitions of love? For me, love is not infatuation, it's wanting what's best for your partner and taking their feelings into account in your day to day life. So Touko likes Yuu's company and is physically attracted to Yuu of course, at least partly due to deeming her a "safe target" for her affections. But up to this point in the manga, I wasn't even sure Touko sees Yuu as her own person so to speak, otherwise, she wouldn't be so shocked that Yuu could return her feelings. I think her whole "feeling bad" now about her requests from Yuu is exactly because, for the first time, she can see Yuu as an individual whose feelings she needs to consider in the equation.

Also, in my opinion, Touko is complex but only as much as Yuu or Sayaka. However, unlike the two of them, she is overly self-centered.

Will it really make you happy to have an empty kiss like that?

Well...yes? Kisses don't always have to mean "I love you, let's stay together forever" you know. It's not an empty kiss, they have been close friends for all this time and Touko and Yuu are not dating yet.

Well...yes? Kisses don't always have to mean "I love you, let's stay together forever" you know. It's not an empty kiss, they have been close friends for all this time and Touko and Yuu are not dating yet.

Now, it's true that a kiss doesn't have to mean anything, but for the protagonists in both "Sakura Trick" and "Girl Friends" it ended up being a slippery slope. And I highly doubt Nakatani Nio would do something similar. There's a non-zero possibility, but that would just shit up this manga. I know I deviated from whatever I wanted to tell and what you actually said, but I'm working on time constraints, since I gotta go for a date within this hour, but this is the shit my comment turned out to be, so I we'd all have to deal with that
-.-
facepalms to himself

You are lost in wishful thinking. Even the gorge that opened between Yuu and Touko is only them not being able to figure out their BLATANTLY OBVIOUS love for each other and position. The audience is supposed to know what it is, while the characters are in denial...

Chill. I'm not lost in wishful thinking, because I know that Nakatani wouldn't have any other ending except YuuxTouko, otherwise sensitive readers would lose their shit and riot lol

I am convinced that Yuu loves Touko and has for a long time. But I'm not convinced at all that Touko loves Yuu. Maybe we have different definitions of love? For me, love is not infatuation, it's wanting what's best for your partner and taking their feelings into account in your day to day life.

Well, the whole premise of the series is that Touko has always had an incredibly misguided and distorted notion of what "love" is and how it works, so much so that it's remarkable that her behavior hasn't been even more toxic and destructive than we've seen it being--you could easily take the basic premises of this story and turn it into a really dark psychological horror/thriller.

(Cue images of hollow-eyed pyscho-Touko holding a knife, saying "You broke your promise, Yuu . . . You lied to me, and you know I can't stand liars!")

There are probably countless definitions of what "real love" is, but I'd guess that most of them have in common some version of the one thing that this story has disallowed from the beginning: reciprocity. So "not really love" is basically the given of the story: Touko has a distorted idea of what love is, and Yuu starts out with no real idea at all. Getting them both onto the same page with a shared, reality-based understanding of "real love" has always been the ultimate goal of the whole story.

You are lost in wishful thinking. Even the gorge that opened between Yuu and Touko is only them not being able to figure out their BLATANTLY OBVIOUS love for each other and position. The audience is supposed to know what it is, while the characters are in denial...

Chill. I'm not lost in wishful thinking, because I know that Nakatani wouldn't have any other ending except YuuxTouko, otherwise sensitive readers would lose their shit and riot lol

I am convinced that Yuu loves Touko and has for a long time. But I'm not convinced at all that Touko loves Yuu. Maybe we have different definitions of love? For me, love is not infatuation, it's wanting what's best for your partner and taking their feelings into account in your day to day life.

Well, the whole premise of the series is that Touko has always had an incredibly misguided and distorted notion of what "love" is and how it works, so much so that it's remarkable that her behavior hasn't been even more toxic and destructive than we've seen it being--you could easily take the basic premises of this story and turn it into a really dark psychological horror/thriller.

(Cue images of hollow-eyed pyscho-Touko holding a knife, saying "You broke your promise, Yuu . . . You lied to me, and you know I can't stand liars!")

There are probably countless definitions of what "real love" is, but I'd guess that most of them have in common some version of the one thing that this story has disallowed from the beginning: reciprocity. So "not really love" is basically the given of the story: Touko has a distorted idea of what love is, and Yuu starts out with no real idea at all. Getting them both onto the same page with a shared, reality-based understanding of "real love" has always been the ultimate goal of the whole story.

Well thought out comment, with a lot of things I can agree with.

I think the reason no one replies is because y'all asleep. I've been timezoned again. Clockblocked, you may say.

You are lost in wishful thinking. Even the gorge that opened between Yuu and Touko is only them not being able to figure out their BLATANTLY OBVIOUS love for each other and position. The audience is supposed to know what it is, while the characters are in denial...

Chill. I'm not lost in wishful thinking, because I know that Nakatani wouldn't have any other ending except YuuxTouko, otherwise sensitive readers would lose their shit and riot lol

I am convinced that Yuu loves Touko and has for a long time. But I'm not convinced at all that Touko loves Yuu. Maybe we have different definitions of love? For me, love is not infatuation, it's wanting what's best for your partner and taking their feelings into account in your day to day life. So Touko likes Yuu's company and is physically attracted to Yuu of course, at least partly due to deeming her a "safe target" for her affections. But up to this point in the manga, I wasn't even sure Touko sees Yuu as her own person so to speak, otherwise, she wouldn't be so shocked that Yuu could return her feelings. I think her whole "feeling bad" now about her requests from Yuu is exactly because, for the first time, she can see Yuu as an individual whose feelings she needs to consider in the equation.

Also, in my opinion, Touko is complex but only as much as Yuu or Sayaka. However, unlike the two of them, she is overly self-centered.

You can't claim that the other options are totally possible and legit and then say you aren't engaging in wishful thinking. Choose one lol (that sensitive readers part is plain stupid, and you know that)

I feel like a lot of people here misunderstand Touko a great deal. The one she didn't allow to be her own person is herself. She always saw Yuu as her own person and respected her boundaries (every single time she did something (except for the first kiss) to Yuu she got permission first). She even questioned why Yuu even went along with her selfish request. Touko's love is absolutely proven and she does want the best for Yuu.

The issue is that she doesn't want to be loved, but in the first place, she assumed Yuu couldn't love her. I've said it before and I say it again, it only came to this point where Touko appears to be selfish and self-centered and cruel, because Yuu was too selfless and went with the flow. Because Yuu didn't put up any resistance or asserted herself, Touko just ran in open doors.

She considered Yuu's feelings, Yuu just didn't SHOW her true feelings. That's why Yuu's confession shook her so badly, because she realized how much she hurt her without being able to know.

The moment Yuu would have disagreed with anything she would have accepted that. And as we see right now, even after Yuu broke her promise, Touko still yearns for her. The memories they made and the love she felt didn't disappear. Only her mental mess prevents her from accepting it.

Will it really make you happy to have an empty kiss like that?

Well...yes? Kisses don't always have to mean "I love you, let's stay together forever" you know. It's not an empty kiss, they have been close friends for all this time and Touko and Yuu are not dating yet.

You don't get it, do you? A kiss not shared between lovers or people who love each other doesn't mean anything. To consider it a "reward" to be kissed by your crush despite not being loved by them is plain terrible. At best it will be a short-lived high with an extreme low. At worst it will just make her hate herself.
Friends don't kiss. It is meaningless and detrimental to all parties involved. Unless you are extremely superficial or only interested in the physical, this kind of thing is not wanted.

last edited at Oct 28, 2018 4:04PM

^ I still think a lot of this discussion (everybody, all along) fails to come to complete terms with the bizarre asymmetry of this basic relationship, and how it makes rendering any standard value judgements about Yuu or Touko’s behavior so problematic. (I don’t see such failure as a flaw in people’s thinking, just that the premise of the story makes such judgements inevitably run off the rails sooner or later.)

Two people, A & B. A is in love with B, and B is not and cannot ever be in love with A.
Pretty much the formula for a dysfunctional relationship, right? But that’s exactly what Touko wants, and in fact insists upon.

So every time we try to say, “A person in a relationship in such circumstances should . . .,” we run into the problem that the required absence of reciprocity makes this an extremely abnormal relationship, and the basis of the judgment eventually breaks down.

BugDevil, I think some readers look at certain kisses in yuri manga not as equivalent to real-life physical intimacy, but more like, I dunno, honorary knighthoods, or the bag of gold a king gives a hero in a fantasy story—a concrete sign in recognition of a job well-done, and with the kiss more of a reward for off-brand shipping readers than a significant event in the storyworld. :)

last edited at Oct 28, 2018 4:20PM

^ I still think a lot of this discussion (everybody, all along) fails to come to complete terms with the bizarre asymmetry of this basic relationship, and how it makes rendering any standard value judgements about Yuu or Touko’s behavior so problematic. (I don’t see such failure as a flaw in people’s thinking, just that the premise of the story makes such judgements inevitably run off the rails sooner or later.)

Two people, A & B. A is in love with B, and B is not and cannot ever be in love with A.
Pretty much the formula for a dysfunctional relationship, right? But that’s exactly what Touko wants, and in fact insists upon.

So every time we try to say, “A person in a relationship in such circumstances should . . .,” we run into the problem that the required absence of reciprocity makes this an extremely abnormal relationship, and the basis of the judgment eventually breaks down.

BugDevil, I think some readers look at certain kisses in yuri manga not as equivalent to real-life physical intimacy, but more like, I dunno, honorary knighthoods, or the bag of gold a king gives a hero in a fantasy story—a concrete sign in recognition of a job well-done, and with the kiss more of a reward for off-brand shipping readers than a significant event in the storyworld. :)

It is supposed to be a bad relationship that doesn't work and everybody knows that.
The fact that Touko loves Yuu however is not affected by how bad their relationship was up to this point. Whether she can stay in a relationship is a different matter, but her love is genuine.
I'm sorry, I don't see why we should be unable to judge an abnormal relationship. Do you really think that their thought processes haven't been shown clearly enough to still judge them? Every action and emotion has been shown to us, the reader, so we can definitely judge it objectively. The characters however can't.

As for the kiss thing...
I get stuff like playful kisses on the hand or forehead as signs of often non-romantic or familial affection. Heck even a peck on the cheek in some extreme cases. But a real kiss? That isn't a reward you give to a person you don't love, especially not if you actually value their feelings. It may very well be that some readers view it that way, but that way of thinking is pretty cruel, if not objectifying. We don't live in the ages anymore where a princess is a reward to a knight who has done a great deed. Equal people do not think that way.
And if it has "no significance to the storyworld" then don't do it in the first place. They should make some fanart of it if they need it so bad, but don't expect it to happen in the actual story lol

PS: I know you don't think that way and just explained their way of thinking. I'm just disagreeing with that viewpoint.

last edited at Oct 28, 2018 4:46PM

^ I still think a lot of this discussion (everybody, all along) fails to come to complete terms with the bizarre asymmetry of this basic relationship, and how it makes rendering any standard value judgements about Yuu or Touko’s behavior so problematic. (I don’t see such failure as a flaw in people’s thinking, just that the premise of the story makes such judgements inevitably run off the rails sooner or later.)

It is supposed to be a bad relationship that doesn't work. Nobody said it worked or was good?
The fact that Touko loves Yuu however is not affected by how bad their relationship was up to this point. Whether she can stay in a relationship is a different matter, but her love is genuine.
I'm sorry, I don't see why we should be unable to judge an abnormal relationship. Do you really think that their thought processes haven't been shown clearly enough to still judge them? Every action and emotion has been shown to us, the reader, so we can definitely judge it objectively. The characters however can't.

Sorry, I forgot to include the line, "BugDevil, I totally agree with your reading of Touko" to avoid the inevitable defensive fire in return. I'll repeat a point I keep making--for someone with such a twisted self-image, Touko has been a notably benign and positive force in Yuu's life. That's what makes her worth being in love with in the first place.

I meant it as a general point--insofar as there has been a mistake in this relationship it was starting it in the first place with such . . . naive assumptions on both their parts. I don't mean that readers can't or shouldn't judge the actions of the characters, but that when we try to apply real-world standards to this unlikely situation, eventually we reach a spot where the existing tools don't quite fit.

tl;dr: Why the fuck would two intelligent people think this could ever work out?

There are probably countless definitions of what "real love" is, but I'd guess that most of them have in common some version of the one thing that this story has disallowed from the beginning: reciprocity. So "not really love" is basically the given of the story: Touko has a distorted idea of what love is, and Yuu starts out with no real idea at all. Getting them both onto the same page with a shared, reality-based understanding of "real love" has always been the ultimate goal of the whole story.

Man, I think you just nailed a perfect explanation for this manga. People don’t understand the manga entirely, and just resolute by saying the manga isn’t entertaining at all.

You don't get it, do you? A kiss not shared between lovers or people who love each other doesn't mean anything. To consider it a "reward" to be kissed by your crush despite not being loved by them is plain terrible. At best it will be a short-lived high with an extreme low. At worst it will just make her hate herself.
Friends don't kiss. It is meaningless and detrimental to all parties involved. Unless you are extremely superficial or only interested in the physical, this kind of thing is not wanted.

You seem to have an overly rigid view of love and physical expressions of love. People can love each other and still not want to be in a relationship. People can be physically attracted to their friends, which they love (or is friendship not love?) and still only want a friendship and not a romantic relationship with them. People can feel that kind of thing for multiple people. And so on and so forth. All I was saying is: it would be nice to have a scene of Sakaya and Touko making out, and then deciding that was it and Sayaka realizing, after satisfying the itch so to speak, that she'd rather move on to date someone else, and Touko realizing Yuu is indeed the one she wants to be with as a partner.

I know it's not gonna happen, even if Nakatani would probably be great at writing such a scene, in no small part because readers lose their shit over grayscale expressions of love. You are kinda making my point for me here.

last edited at Oct 28, 2018 8:02PM

You seem to have an overly rigid view of love and physical expressions of love. People can love each other and still not want to be in a relationship. People can be physically attracted to their friends, which they love (or is friendship not love?) and still only want a friendship and not a romantic relationship with them. People can feel that kind of thing for multiple people. And so on and so forth. All I was saying is: it would be nice to have a scene of Sakaya and Touko making out, and then deciding that was it and Sayaka realizing, after satisfying the itch so to speak, that she'd rather move on to date someone else, and Touko realizing Yuu is indeed the one she wants to be with as a partner.

I don’t understand at all why it would be nice to have a making out scene between Sayaka and Touko just for her to realize that she has to move on? Making out is not the only way. Sometimes, talking after rejection is the perfect way. They’re best friends anyway. Real friends always understood each other even the other one hurts another unintenionally. Besides, it would only hurt and painful for Sayaka. Sayaka doesn’t deserve that mess up ending of her love for Touko.

I feel like a lot of people here misunderstand Touko a great deal. The one she didn't allow to be her own person is herself. She always saw Yuu as her own person and respected her boundaries (every single time she did something (except for the first kiss) to Yuu she got permission first). She even questioned why Yuu even went along with her selfish request. Touko's love is absolutely proven and she does want the best for Yuu.

The issue is that she doesn't want to be loved, but in the first place, she assumed Yuu couldn't love her. I've said it before and I say it again, it only came to this point where Touko appears to be selfish and self-centered and cruel, because Yuu was too selfless and went with the flow. Because Yuu didn't put up any resistance or asserted herself, Touko just ran in open doors.

She considered Yuu's feelings, Yuu just didn't SHOW her true feelings. That's why Yuu's confession shook her so badly, because she realized how much she hurt her without being able to know.

The moment Yuu would have disagreed with anything she would have accepted that. And as we see right now, even after Yuu broke her promise, Touko still yearns for her. The memories they made and the love she felt didn't disappear. Only her mental mess prevents her from accepting it.

I personally find this entire explanation too convenient for Touko (you could be her lawyer lol). You are right that she was asking all the time if Yuu was fine with her advances and pointing out that Yuu is too kind and whatnot; but that doesn't count as a positive in this case. Rather, it means she feels on some level, if not very consciously, that what she is doing to Yuu is not right or fair. But because it would satisfy her needs, she went for it anyway. So, in my opinion, she is very self-centered (doesn't mean she doesn't have redeeming qualities though).

Another point is that, in my view, she could kinda sense Yuu was falling for her. Because every time the subject came up even tangentially, she would make "yandere eyes" of panic that scared the bejesus out of Yuu (and me lol). Or, later on, started making clear demands about not being loved back. That scene in the bed where she is on top of Yuu saying stuff about why she doesn't want to be loved could be interpreted as basically a threat. I would go so far as to say she seems to know on some level that Sayaka is into her, and yet does not address the issue head-on.

Anyway, I hope that the manga doesn't go the route of "poor Touko, let's give her a break because sad childhood story is sad". But instead that she truly realizes she was in the wrong here and in a way using both Sayaka and Yuu.

I don’t understand at all why it would be nice to have a making out scene between Sayaka and Touko just for her to realize that she has to move on? Making out is not the only way. Sometimes, talking after rejection is the perfect way. They’re best friends anyway. Real friends always understood each other even the other one hurts another unintenionally. Besides, it would only hurt and painful for Sayaka. Sayaka doesn’t deserve that mess up ending of her love for Touko.

It would be nice because it would be hot (lol), and also because from what I've seen in real life, in cases like Sayaka's you either get it out of your system or you cut the friendship off. "Talking after rejection" doesn't make attraction go away. Counter-intuitively, getting it over with once and realizing the chemistry isn't what you imagined it to be, does.

last edited at Oct 28, 2018 8:47PM

^ @BugDevil and matsuri_wins.
You know, you guys are both right about Touko, just emphasizing different aspects of her behavior. [Bracketing out the sorta hilarious kissing debate here.]

This kind of disagreement pretty much comes with the territory when the story allows readers to understand the characters and to see the implications and consequences of their behavior far better than the characters can themselves.

BD is seeing Touko's behavior from Touko's own POV, and yes, smart though she is Touko really is (or was) that dead-blind about herself and about Yuu's feelings.

MW emphasizes how Touko looks from the other side--yes, she was being incredibly self-centered and almost inevitably was going to hurt Yuu emotionally.

I do think the "using Sayaka" charge is overstated, though. Sayaka has been very careful to not give Touko any inkling of her real feelings--Sayaka consistently says (and communicates non-verbally), "I just want to be by Touko's side and support her as a friend," and there's been absolutely no reason given why Touko shouldn't take her at her word.

Now, if Sayaka should happen to confess, Touko might well have the same epiphany as when Yuu confessed, and at that point flash back on previous hints in Sayaka's behavior. But if Sayaka actually wanted something from Touko that she wasn't getting, she herself bore some responsibility for saying so.

Ok, I want to chime in.... My two cents...

As the story is, right now, we should not know if Yuu and Touko actually have a happy ending, so to speculate that their love is true is jumping the gun. As a reader, I'm more interested in the journey not the destination. At the same time, it needs to make sense to me. Touko doesn't make sense to me. Thus, I'm inclined to not trust her feelings and have a tad bit of animosity toward her for hurting such a wonderful person. However, with that said, I'm won't dismiss that tiny ray of hope Touko planted when she said she misses Yuu. Was that love? Not convinced, yet. How will I be convinced? I'll just wait and see.

Ok, I want to chime in.... My two cents...

As the story is, right now, we should not know if Yuu and Touko actually have a happy ending, so to speculate that their love is true is jumping the gun. As a reader, I'm more interested in the journey not the destination. At the same time, it needs to make sense to me. Touko doesn't make sense to me. Thus, I'm inclined to not trust her feelings and have a tad bit of animosity toward her for hurting such a wonderful person. However, with that said, I'm won't dismiss that tiny ray of hope Touko planted when she said she misses Yuu. Was that love? Not convinced, yet. How will I be convinced? I'll just wait and see.

Touko is a complicated person. She has some issue too of hating herself too much. I don’t know exactly if it was because of her sister’s death, and felt guilt over it or because she herself felt that people have failed to appreciate her as her, Touko. So, she has a blurred and twisted view of what love really is. For her, people will only love her for a certain expectation and reason of her being perfect. And love will stop if she starts showing all her imperfections. But at the same time she is just coward to tell, “love me even if I’m not like this”, instead she resorts of saying, “don’t fall in love with me”. I don’t hesitate her love for Yuu as true. Yuu was always there, being her emotional support and kindly being wonderfull to accept all her imperfections and selfishness. Who wouldn’t fall for a someone like that? She was just shook coz she always thought Yuu couldn’t fall for someone. Yuu, admittedly, was hard to read of all if you look at it in Touko’s POV. She has this cold, as if she was annoyed. And always told, she isn’t in love. And that’s how Touko believes in her. Both being away with each other is a huge step for them to sort their true feelings.

@shojie07

That is a great explanation. I appreciate it very much. I'll confess, I never looked at Yuu from Touko's perspective. However, even with that insightful response, you hit on my specific confusion. Touko has a blurred and twisted view of love, and yet she has true love for Yuu? I don't understand this. On the flip side, Yuu at least says she doesn't understand love at all. I'm fine with this, and I even feel her pain. But, you know what? It's Touko that I find myself most intrigued. She throws me for a loop. I can't help but to pay more attention to her. So, yeah, I look forward to these two sorting things out as well, because this is a fantastic story.

tl;dr: Why the fuck would two intelligent people think this could ever work out?

Well, don't I look like an ass now? lol
Sorry for jumping to the defense right away, but I'm rather used to it by now.

I have honestly no idea why they thought it would work, but then again, Touko was just trying to go after the one she loves blindly, while Yuu wanted to find out what love is... and she did. Just didn't quite work out the way she hoped haha

I personally find this entire explanation too convenient for Touko (you could be her lawyer lol). You are right that she was asking all the time if Yuu was fine with her advances and pointing out that Yuu is too kind and whatnot; but that doesn't count as a positive in this case. Rather, it means she feels on some level, if not very consciously, that what she is doing to Yuu is not right or fair. But because it would satisfy her needs, she went for it anyway. So, in my opinion, she is very self-centered (doesn't mean she doesn't have redeeming qualities though).

Another point is that, in my view, she could kinda sense Yuu was falling for her. Because every time the subject came up even tangentially, she would make "yandere eyes" of panic that scared the bejesus out of Yuu (and me lol). Or, later on, started making clear demands about not being loved back. That scene in the bed where she is on top of Yuu saying stuff about why she doesn't want to be loved could be interpreted as basically a threat. I would go so far as to say she seems to know on some level that Sayaka is into her, and yet does not address the issue head-on.

Anyway, I hope that the manga doesn't go the route of "poor Touko, let's give her a break because sad childhood story is sad". But instead that she truly realizes she was in the wrong here and in a way using both Sayaka and Yuu.

Ironically I see almost nothing wrong with what you said here. I have never asserted that Touko is not selfish. I don't quite agree fully with the "threats", but it is true that she was getting more rejecting of the possibility that she is loved the more Yuu was losing her grip on displaying her interest.

The thing is, that wasn't your original point. You claimed that you even doubt Touko loved Yuu at all, which was my main point of contention. You used her selfishness and actions as a support for that point, but they are not. I explained why these things were not a sign of her not loving Yuu truly. You said she didn't care about Yuu's side, which is simply wrong, but that doesn't mean she isn't selfish or unintentionally cruel, just as you explained here.

You seem to have an overly rigid view of love and physical expressions of love. People can love each other and still not want to be in a relationship. People can be physically attracted to their friends, which they love (or is friendship not love?) and still only want a friendship and not a romantic relationship with them. People can feel that kind of thing for multiple people. And so on and so forth. All I was saying is: it would be nice to have a scene of Sakaya and Touko making out, and then deciding that was it and Sayaka realizing, after satisfying the itch so to speak, that she'd rather move on to date someone else, and Touko realizing Yuu is indeed the one she wants to be with as a partner.

I know it's not gonna happen, even if Nakatani would probably be great at writing such a scene, in no small part because readers lose their shit over grayscale expressions of love. You are kinda making my point for me here.

That's beyond stupid. I get loose relationships and the like where you aren't bound entirely, even polyamory.
But no, friendship is not love. At least not romantic love , ya know? The thing we are talking about? And surprisingly enough, friends don't kiss. You are kinda acting like Sayaka is only interested in Touko physically if you say something so... ugh. Even if she were someone who doesn't want a "relationship", she sure as hell would want Touko to love her back!

You have made no sensible argument as to why that kiss would benefit either of them. This screams to me "I just want to see them kiss because its hot and I don't care how it affects the characters". Sayaka loves Touko and clearly does want to be in a relationship with her if she confesses and Touko reciprocates her feelings. Their current friendship is painful to her, because she has to suppress her true feelings. Love is not "an itch" you can sate with an empty kiss and then say "I'm satisfied lol". That is a superficial crush at best and would mean you never cared about what the other person felt anyway. So by your own words "It's not love if you don't want the best for the other person or care about their feelings".

My view of love is not too rigid, you are just completely missing the point of what romantic feelings are.

PS: I am not even saying this can't happen. The kiss may happen. But if that is the case it won't be a good thing. It won't be a happy moment. It will be used for the sake of affirming Touko's feelings and hurt Sayaka dearly in the process. Nakatani might use this device, but I don't see why anybody would want that. Are you even interested in romance or do you just want to see your favorite girls kiss? So surface...

last edited at Oct 29, 2018 5:15AM

That's beyond stupid. I get loose relationships and the like where you aren't bound entirely, even polyamory.
But no, friendship is not love. At least not romantic love , ya know? The thing we are talking about? And surprisingly enough, friends don't kiss. You are kinda acting like Sayaka is only interested in Touko physically if you say something so... ugh. Even if she were someone who doesn't want a "relationship", she sure as hell would want Touko to love her back!

You have made no sensible argument as to why that kiss would benefit either of them. This screams to me "I just want to see them kiss because its hot and I don't care how it affects the characters". Sayaka loves Touko and clearly does want to be in a relationship with her if she confesses and Touko reciprocates her feelings. Their current friendship is painful to her, because she has to suppress her true feelings. Love is not "an itch" you can sate with an empty kiss and then say "I'm satisfied lol". That is a superficial crush at best and would mean you never cared about what the other person felt anyway. So by your own words "It's not love if you don't want the best for the other person or care about their feelings".

My view of love is not too rigid, you are just completely missing the point of what romantic feelings are.

PS: I am not even saying this can't happen. The kiss may happen. But if that is the case it won't be a good thing. It won't be a happy moment. It will be used for the sake of affirming Touko's feelings and hurt Sayaka dearly in the process. Nakatani might use this device, but I don't see why anybody would want that. Are you even interested in romance or do you just want to see your favorite girls kiss? So surface...

I am precisely saying that it would be great if Sayaka finds out (through a nice make out scene) that she feels friendship (obviously) and physical attraction for Touko, and not the "omg romantic love Touko must be mine or I will be unhappy" kinda thing, and moves on after the itch is over. Extremely normal even for adults, let alone for a teenager. She is a lez, Touko is smoking hot, they are close to each other...one thing leads to the other, so of course, she is going to think she is in love. But maybe she isn't.

Which by the way there is nothing wrong with that, true friendship is typically stronger than romantic love (that's why people either dump their lovers eventually or say that their lovers have become their best friends -- romantic love is, by its very nature, volatile). For the record, her denial phase aside, Yuu at first was kissing Touko simply because kissing her felt nice and she is physically attractive, and not because Yuu was "in love". And she still truly cared for Touko.

I think you need to bring down the romantic idealisms down a notch, my proposal would represent a very happy ending for Sayaka :P

last edited at Oct 29, 2018 9:08AM