Amano Shuninta loves that kind of characters anyway. See "The Feelings With All Must Endure"

Put Touma into that manga's world-view and she'd get led into sex work but just give a blank smile of incomprehension to anyone who tried to explain that she'd been exploited.

I agree with everything you said, but the part about "your special because..." and "I love you because...". In my mind they're about the same thing. The important part is the explanation afterward. Clear communication is the key.

What she meant was, saying someone is "special" implies a sort of objective value, while telling someone why you love them is clearly describing what value they have to you on a personal level. And it's that personal value that really matters in a relationship.

Fair enough.

So apparently nobody seems to give a shit about actual teachers sleeping with one of their students and don't thinking of it as "a big deal"? I honestly don't really care about Touma's motivations or whatever, but what sort of fucked up adults actually rationalize sleeping with an underage girl "not a big deal"? We've seen this kind of setup thousand of times before, but an adult woman confessing on putting her hands on her student, and everybody going "lol same" is not exactly what I think of when I think of "fun times"

Your right. In real life something like this, would create major moral outrage.(rightfuly so, I add for the record.) This is a fictitious world, with fictitious girls, in a fictitious high school, though. honestly, if this kind of thing offends you, you should probably stay away from the age gap tag.

It not so much the fact that they slept with their student, but the fact that they pass it as "not a big deal". We look at plenty of age gap works and usually the attitude is "Hey this is illegal and all, but as long as we keep quiet, things won't go south". There's guilt and there's recognition of how wrong are you acting.

Meanwhile, here we have a room full of adults who see nothing wrong with it. That's what pisses me off

I've read manga that treat, a teacher sleeping with a student, as a horrible taboo, that must be resisted at all cost. I've also read ones where they treat it casually, like it's no big deal. It all depends what tone the author wants to set with the story. I think the casual treatment fits this story well.

Finding a room full of, “Hey, once you’ve tried Touma-kun, getting your hair done will never be the same” women is not the most morally reprehensible thing I’ve found to be hilarious on this site.

Not sure it’s even top 5.

I'm sure. It's not in my top 5.

Nooo! The Nurse deserves a happy ending!

It's not the manga's content itself that upsets me (it does still annoy me though), but the people who are defending the titular character's behaviour despite that clearly not being the point of the manga.

Prior post:

I take back what I said earlier. Now I just want to watch Touma get run over by a truck. Multiple times. Sure, I would find the experience of actually watching such a thing absolutely repulsive, but I'm just as repulsed by the titular character's behaviour.

No offence, but you do sound kind of upset by the content.

Personally, I think there is no particular need to defend her behaviour (yet I will do it all the same), because nothing terribly wrong is being done. Touma is a player, but as far as players go, she is not actually bad. She does not lie, she does not make promises she is not prepared to keep, and she is not keeping her status as a player secret. She is not forcing anyone, and the girls know what they are getting with the package.

Taken chapter by chapter, in the first one the girl-of-the-week does not appear to consider the experience as a bad one, quite the contrary, it seems to have left a positive mark on her. She was not portrayed to harbour some deep, secret feelings for Touma from before their fling, and she did not seem to develop any during it either. At most, she had admiration for the school's most popular girl. Pages 14 and 15 are literally the only places where you could try to read some hurt into the girl, but it honestly does not look like much.

Second chapter, I do not think the girl was even in love with Touma to begin with. Instead, she had this weird obsession with being "special", and Touma was her ticket to attain this "special" status. Also, she knew (notice the plural) Touma scored with other girls as well, she was just hoping she would be the exception, despite having no factual basis for said hope.
It is not that uncommon a scenario, a person gets together with a player, knows what they are getting into, but hopes that with time the player will change their ways for the sake of the person in question. Especially shitty players can even encourage this hope as a means of bedding a person. Note that Touma did not do that, this situation was entirely the result of the girl wilfully disregarding what she knew about Touma, and indulging in her own private fantasy. When the fantasy collided with reality, Touma did not string her along, but properly rejected her.

The second chapter girl is also much worse a person than Touma, if you ask me. Not because after being rejected by the titular player she latched onto the first girl who showed interest in her, but because she specifically dismissed said girl, in quite a callous manner (albeit only in her mind), just a short while before. If Touma reacted differently and agreed to go steady, the main character would probably not spare this other girl a single thought. Note that even with this plain looking partner, she is still primarily seeking affirmation she is somehow special, rather than experiencing typical romance.

As far as the third chapter is concerned, that one looks really bad, because the nurse had a mental breakdown after the deed was done. However, that was hardly Touma's fault. The nurse could have just said no. Someone said to me they would have slapped Touma if they were in that situation, right there at the beginning, when she started putting on the moves. And that is the thing, the nurse could have done that. She also could have done something more controlled, like saying no and walking away. She also could have used her actual authority as a staff member and thrown Touma out of the infirmary. But she did none of that. Instead, she had sex. All the possible consequences of such an act were something she was well aware of before letting herself be bedded, it was not like Touma was a perfect stranger whom she slept with, then to her horror discovered she was actually a student at her school. She knew that the whole time, so the fact she had a meltdown later still leaves me rather unsympathetic, because she is an idiot. I fail to see how it could be seen as Touma's responsibility.

Quitting her employment and going through with the wedding meeting is basically her adult reaction to doing something un-adult-like (not that I consider "adult" view of the world as being better, she is still an idiot in my book). Basically, the whole indulging-in-spontaneous-pleasures-but-now-is-the-time-to-become-a-responsible-adult-goodbye-youth route. While her quitting is directly linked to her sleeping with Touma, the wedding meeting was something she considered (albeit reluctantly) before the incident itself, and considering how much she values the whole "adult" thing, chances are she would have done it regardless, at some point. Settling down, being responsible, the whole works. Touma did not force her to make those decisions, just as she did not force her into bed.

In the first chapter, the girl-of-the-week experienced no noticeable hurt, had no expectations dashed, and the whole experience caused her to change the way she looks at herself, and to start appreciate her own appearance. I would write that down as a positive progress.

Second and third chapters are different, because there is hurt, regret and even horror. But the causes are, in my opinion, the second chapter girl wilfully deluding herself based on no facts whatsoever (when she knew perfectly well Touma is sweet on other girls too), and the nurse letting her libido overrule her judgement (judgement which warned her from the very beginning she should not be doing this).

Now, do not get me wrong, I am not going into extremes here by trying to peddle how Touma is flawless, a good girl, and you have to like her. Far from it. I mean, I obviously like her, but I am not blind to her flaws either. When you come down to it, she is quite insensitive, not really caring for the feelings of the girls she beds in any way, at least I saw nothing that would suggest she does. She likes them, but she does not really care for them, she does not seem to be capable of empathising with them when things do not go as usual. Her emotional attachments seem to be really shallow, and she backs away at the first sign that more is expected of her.
As the incident with the nurse showed, she also lacks proper respect of privacy (as evident in what Nevri pointed out, when Touma just casually grabbed the nurse's cellphone and looked at the messages, then proceeded to ask her about the picture, made all the worse by the fact they are not friends even in broadest sense of the term) and authority (as pointed out to me by Nevri again, beside the aforementioned cellphone grabbing, she also refused to listen to the nurse to get back to class, insisted to be called by her first name, proceeded to call the nurse by her first name, not to mention the fact she decided to seduce a faculty member in the first place).

There is also the fact she does seduce girls, most evident in the third chapter. Seduction is manipulation, but I would not actually put it down as a bad thing here, because Touma's seduction contains no deceit, no false promises.

I can see how a character like her would rub some people the wrong way, and you are certainly free to dislike her. All I am saying is, some are taking that dislike to absurd levels, what with the trucks and labelling her partners as "victims". As I already said, she does not hide her nature, she does not promise anything she can not deliver, and she does not use force. Her "victims" could have just walked away without sleeping with her, amazingly.
I mean, the two "victims" (excluding the first chapter, because there is legitimately nothing controversial going on there, it seems to have been a positive experience all around for both parties) do not even hold a grudge against her. Especially notable with the nurse, who imposed severe sanctions on herself over it, but obviously blames herself, not Touma (and she has a point there, she was the adult, and an adult with official authority over Touma no less).
Though, something tells me that even if she was 15 years younger, her fooling with the titular character would probably last only through her schooling, what with the way she delineates between "girls" and "women", and ascribes certain values (like marrying a man) to being an "adult".
All the other girls and faculty members seem to look positively at their experiences with Touma, what with all the fangirling and having a laugh over it.

And that brings me to a point which will negate this entire long post in a way, lol, namely that both sides of the argument, myself included, are probably delving too deep into this. Pages 13-17 of the latest chapter broke my suspension of disbelief, as I stated in my earlier post, to the point I can no longer take this work seriously. Which is why I will not even touch upon the whole "bedding the entire staff" thing, because LOL. Shuninta got us here, as A5PECT said, this did not appear to be one of the works from the author's silly list, but after that scene, I just can not look at it as anything but silly. Good silly, though, so I will definitely continue reading it, lol.

I felt like Touma was similar to another character, and finally it dawned on me. She's like the younger version of Suwako-san, only more flirty and gives great haircuts.

Suwako actually only sleeps with people she loves. She can just love multiple people deeply at the same time, while Touma doesn't actually want any deep feelings.

That is not the only difference, unlike Touma, Suwako actually respects the privacy of her partners and expects the same in return, though she is not completely consistent on this issue. However, a much bigger difference, at least in my opinion, is the fact Touma does not hide her nature and is completely open and upfront about it, while Suwako lies and cheats.

One thing they have in common is that both are uncaring about their partners (yes, I know she came the day before, but that is not how actual caring works, "I will care for you on Mondays, other days of the week screw you"), and the moment something more is expected of them, they back away (or more accurately in Suwako's case, remind their partners of the boundaries). Note that the main character in the "Space Voyage" is not alright with the arrangement, and Suwako knows this, she just does not give a fuck, despite what the main character tells herself in the sequel.

Still, even though I absolutely loathe Suwako (not really sure why, to be honest, usually I am unbothered by cheating, but something about her just pisses me off, maybe it is that "oopsie, ehehe, silly little me" face she so often sports), I do not actually blame her for her lover's sufferings, because Suwako clearly stipulated her conditions and the main character willingly agreed to them. Even after the practice showed to the main character that she hates it, she still willingly persisted in maintaining the relationship. She can just leave whenever she desires, plenty of other people have done so. So the main character gets no sympathy from me, lol, she is the architect of her own anguish. When you make yourself suffer like that, you literally reap what you sowed.

Strangely though, the "Space Voyage" thread has a distinctive lack of heated comments, which is kind of surprising for our Forum...

last edited at Apr 20, 2018 6:15AM

I don't know what impresses me more, that you were so long-winded about this, or that I actually read most of that post. The "run over by a truck" thing was just a knee-jerk reaction to the latest chapter (you'd think I would've learned my lesson about actually posting those, but I digress), my feelings aren't really that extreme. Although I do genuinely hate the MC as a human being, I won't be losing any sleep over this manga. I don't really have any major disagreements with the above post, but I still haven't changed how I look at the story. Why am I still reading it then, you might ask. Simply because it's an artist I generally enjoy.

Don't know why defend Touma. She's clearly wrong and the author probably knows that. She's just a fetish, anyway.
I do think the manga is shit and kind of makes me avoid reading more of the author's works, but we'll...

I also have a big problem with the "the adult and responsible thing to do is marriage" and I'm surprised to see that in a yuri manga.

last edited at Apr 20, 2018 9:18AM

Wtv posted:

I also have a big problem with the "the adult and responsible thing to do is marriage" and I'm surprised to see that in a yuri manga.

Yea it also stuck to me with the whole implication that you can only be interested in other girls when you are young, but as adult you can't do it anymore and you have to marry a man. And she even wishes she was girl again as if only then she would be in accepted age to do it with other girls, since as we all know, women can't do that. I concluded I'm looking too deep into it since it is manga by author that writes yuri, so there is no way they actually agree with that viewpoint.

At no point is it implied that the nurse is gay, or even bisexual.

Did none notice

• That Touma insists on being called "Touma-KUN", as if she's a stand-in for a boy.
• That the nurse starts to call her Touma-kun only after the deed is done
• That Touma is still fully dressed in the bed. The one who did the other is obvious.

Honestly, that Touma is a girl is really irrelevant to this story. It's a girl because it's Amano Shuninta writing.

All the women have been turned into "girls". It's a manga about those girls and how Touma makes them change, not about Touma herself or even homosexuality.

The nurse was hesitant about the omiai, but the Touma experience made her realize that she was stuck between youth and adult. And as she doesn't want to or can't go back to being a girl, she goes forward with the interview, whether she marries or not.

The "adult thing to do" is not being married. It's doing something (the interview), even if you're not keen about doing it.

last edited at Apr 21, 2018 3:03AM

Touma is a large than life fantasy boyish tachi who can offer something great to many people and is highly adapted to that role, especially in her naivety. Since she's not a realistic person, the teaching staff who see no reason to feel guilty about succumbing to her charms are right. Fumi not letting go of her inhibitions is a bad outcome.

Reejun posted:

Fumi not letting go of her inhibitions is a bad outcome.

No, it's a reality check.

At this point, I can't really argue about the morality of Touma's actions or whatever, because I'm completely unable to see her as a real person. It's gotten too absurd for that. She's treated like this irrepressible force of nature, both by the actual characters who interact with her, and by the narrative itself. However, when I stop thinking of her as a character, and consider her instead as the Platonic embodiment of the teen girl experience (or something along those lines) then it kinda starts to make sense for me?

Girl A defines herself strictly by the role of "student", and can't find any value in herself, until she experiments with and embraces girlish joys like love and beauty, and finds it liberating, even as she mourns the loss of her childhood.

Girl B believes that her girlishness makes her unique, that she possesses some insight or quality that others don't, only to realise that her seemingly transcendental experiences are actually rather mundane. She loses heart, until somebody else shows her that she can be special after all, just in a simpler and more personal way.

Girl C believes her girlish days should be behind her, but she feels like her youthful longings disqualify her from being a real adult. She discovers that all adults have a few childish tendencies here and there, and though she's initially disillusioned by her seemingly immature cohorts, she realises that there's no magic moment that a child transforms into an adult, and that maturity is a matter of taking on the responsibilities of adulthood for yourself, even while you long for simpler days.

It's all a big metaphor for personal growth. If Touma was a tarot card, she'd be Death. That's why she's a hairdresser - cutting your hair is a common symbol of rebirth and change. It's why she's so inescapably enthralling. It's why she's strange, unfathomable, and a little scary, but ultimately necessary and beneficial to those she touches.

Ultimately, it's why she's a hot butch who has amazing sex with everyone. This whole thing is Amano Shuninta's love letter to femininity, and Touma is her expression that all girls are wonderful and special and deserve kisses and love, no matter who they are.

Anyway, everything I just said is definitely a whole load of airy pretentious bullshit, but I still find it preferable to trying to read this as a conventionally engaging story about believable characters, because it's definitely none of those things.

last edited at Apr 20, 2018 2:20PM

Anyway, everything I just said is definitely a whole load of airy pretentious bullshit,

Maybe so, but it’s better than anything that any of the rest of us had to say about it.

Gale. That was... really good. It suddenly make this manga feel much more deep than it first seems. Now if only that really was what Shuninta meant all along (though looking at Feelings and how she based main character on 7 deadly sins, I wouldn't put it past her).

Reejun posted:

Fumi not letting go of her inhibitions is a bad outcome.

No, it's a reality check.

I feel that's a big misreading of story.

It's all a big metaphor for personal growth.

Except none of those girls learned anything.

It's all a big metaphor for personal growth.

Except none of those girls learned anything.

What about the parts in the OP that spell out what each of the girls/women learned/was shown/realizes?

After all, each chapter ends with the person explicitly thinking about how they’ve changed or how things are going to be different from now on.

It's all a big metaphor for personal growth.

Except none of those girls learned anything.

What about the parts in the OP that spell out what each of the girls/women learned/was shown/realizes?

After all, each chapter ends with the person explicitly thinking about how they’ve changed or how things are going to be different from now on.

But their conclusion is always terrible. If Amano is trying to give some message, I don't think I like it.

Because you keep fixating on the relationships between Touma and the girls.

The stories are about these girls' relationships with themselves.

last edited at Apr 20, 2018 6:53PM

But their conclusion is always terrible. If Amano is trying to give some message, I don't think I like it.

I mean, if we're going to get into it, people can change in sub-optimal ways, or learn the wrong lessons, or grow embittered instead of enlightened. I agree that "personal growth" implies something positive or beneficial, so it wasn't the best choice of words on my part. I was just trying to say that the characters all changed, in some way. They "grew up", for better or worse, and it was Touma - or rather, the formational experience that Touma represents - that served as a catalyst for this transformation.

It might seem like Amano Shuninta is approving of their choices by how lovingly and sincerely she's depicting them, but if there's anything we know for sure about Amano Shuninta, it's that she absolutely adores messy, twisted characters who revel in their terrible life choices. I'm not sure how interested Amano Shuninta is in depicting the internal lives of healthy, well-adjusted people.

last edited at Apr 20, 2018 6:59PM

At no point is it implied that the nurse is gay, or even bisexual.

Did none notice

• That Touma insists on being called "Touma-KUN", as if she's a stand-in for a boy.
• That the nurses start to call her Touma-kun only after the deed is done
• That Touma is still fully dressed in the bed. The one who did the other is obvious.

Honestly, that Touma is a girl is really irrelevant to this story. It's a girl because it's Amano Shuninta writing.

All the women have been turned into "girls". It's a manga about those girls and how Touma makes them change, not about Touma herself or even homosexuality.

The nurse was hesitant about the omiai, but the Touma experience made her realize that she was stuck between youth and adult. And as she doesn't want to or can't go back to being a girl, she goes forward with the interview, whether she marries or not.

The "adult thing to do" is not being married. It's doing something (the interview), even if you're not keen about doing it.

The fact that a woman feels the need, to get married, to become an adult, is a tragic statement, in it self.

The fact that a woman feels the need, to get married, to become an adult, is a tragic statement, in it self.

For most people, male and female, getting married is part of becoming an adult. That's been pretty much constant throughout human history. Only recently, and only in a few small parts of a few societies is marriage being seen as unnecessary for large numbers of people.

Even if you don't hold that view (as I don't ) calling it "tragic" is pretty narrow-minded.

last edited at Apr 21, 2018 1:00AM

The fact that a woman feels the need, to get married, to become an adult, is a tragic statement, in it self.

For most people, male and female, getting married is part of becoming an adult. That's been pretty much constant throughout human history. Only recently, and only in a few small parts of a few societies is marriage being seen as unnecessary for large numbers of people.

Even if you don't hold that view (as I don't ) calling it "tragic" is pretty narrow-minded.

No, I don't think calling it tragic is narrow minded. Look how woman are traditionally treated in marriage. They are little more than domestic servants, and child bearers. They are pretty much just suppose to be support character in their husbands' lives.
Even in our supposedly liberated society, woman take the back seat to their husbands. Sure we tell girls they can grow up to be anything they want to be. Which is true, as long as the house is clean, dinner is on the table, and the kids have been picked up from soccer practice.
Of course, you can find examples, that prove this wrong, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.

Well... some people are happy to be married. And some couples don't conform to the traditional roles.

Thinking that any and all het marriage is a tragedy is a bit... narrow minded.