I really liked the twist of the heroine getting confessed to. But she also was an arrogant double-standarded bitch when turning down the girl. I mean she used to be plain too, she should have known what it's like. But well, that's teenage years for you. Can't say I was always a great person when I was that age, lol.

Since this manga already surprised me I really hope it does that again and the main character stays together with the "plain" girl. But that would be too much to hope for in a manga, right? If this was het and she had a plain guy confessing to her, she'd still end up with the player. I'm not hating on this, it's alright. I'd just like to read something different sometime.

Actually, even though this manga's title is "Touma-kun", she's not even the MC.

The MCs are the girls that are attracted to her like moths to a flame. Both characters, Karen and Yuki desperately want to not be plain and ordinary. And that's exactly what Touma brings them. For a while, she makes them shine and feel special. Then, in the end, they both accept that not everyone can be as special as Touma.

I think Touma genuinely thinks all these girls are cute in their own way. She doesn't reject any of them because they are ordinary. That's part of her calling : being an hairdresser for her is about making every girl cuter. But she never promised romance. The girls fall in love with Touma on their own and it's not her fault that she's unable to return their feelings. She just loves girls. All girls.

last edited at Mar 25, 2018 6:52AM

Touma has been completely up-front and honest about her feelings. When asked in the first chapter, she openly admits to Karen that she has intimate relationships with many women. In this chapter, Yuki asks for an exclusive relationship, and Touma politely declines. No lies, no stringing along.

I mean, the time for honesty and up-frontness is before you shower insecure and starstruck girls with compliments and rush them into a sexual relationship, not afterwards. We very clearly see her MO in chapter 1 - with Karen, there's no communication, there's no honesty, there's not even any time to really think about what's happening, just an endless stream of affection and compliments until suddenly she's being kissed.

Only afterwards does she reveal that she does this with everyone, and that's only because she was explicitly asked. And if the other girl doesn't ask, either because she doesn't have the courage to, or doesn't think she should have to, then we get situations like Yuki's, who still ended up dreadfully misunderstanding her situation even though she knew how Touma behaved. That doesn't sound like an up-front and honest relationship to me.

I know it's the Amano Shunintest thing ever to have these charismatic player-types who are terribly irresponsible but so gosh-dang hard to hate because they're so self-assured and straightforward about their intentions, but that doesn't actually make them good or reasonable as people. They're interesting and compelling characters, for sure, but we don't need to make excuses for their behaviour as if they're somehow not responsible when their careless actions hurt others.

Don't try to victimize the girls. Everybody hurts, sometimes. And that's what makes you grow up.

When I look back on my heartbreaks, I realize that they made me stronger.

johnb posted:

that double standard bothers me.

I think most people here have double standards like that. If it is yuri, it is k or at least it always make it better compare to other options. I know I do and I'm not bothered by it at all since I consider girls superior anyway.

I also disagree with the quote "If everyone is special, then no one is special" Everybody is special in their own way You just have to find it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's kind of awesome that Touma can see, the beauty, in all girls.

So funny I just remembered about this yesterday. The issue is it invalids the meaning of word "special". If everyone is "special" or "one of a kind" or whatever, then that word really loses its meaning. Obviously everyone is different, but when people say special, they have a very specific meaning in mind, so saying to you everyone is special is pretty much like saying everyone is equal and that is not what those girls want.

I have to admit that I just don’t know how useful the hypothetical “if this was het/if the character were a guy” is in analyzing the yuri genre. My sense is that sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t, and maybe it’s more often applicable when discussing the ethics of behavior in general rather than when doing literary analysis of a specific story. But to what extent it is or may be relevant I can’t quite sort out in my head.

I certainly don’t think there’s a general rule that “it’s girls, so no problem.” But I also know that a lot of times the answer to the question, “But what if it were a guy doing X?” is that in that case the whole situation would be so utterly transformed that it’s impossible to imagine X happening in the first place.

johnb posted:

that double standard bothers me.

I think most people here have double standards like that. If it is yuri, it is k or at least it always make it better compare to other options. I know I do and I'm not bothered by it at all since I consider girls superior anyway.

Sex is sex, no matter what genders are involved. A lesbian, who has cheap meaning sex with countless women, isn't pure and innocent, just because she has never been with a man. Conversely, a girl who has had loving sex with her boyfriend, hasn't soiled herself, or thrown her innocence away. I know that, but I want to feel it too.

I also disagree with the quote "If everyone is special, then no one is special" Everybody is special in their own way You just have to find it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's kind of awesome that Touma can see, the beauty, in all girls.

So funny I just remembered about this yesterday. The issue is it invalids the meaning of word "special". If everyone is "special" or "one of a kind" or whatever, then that word really loses its meaning. Obviously everyone is different, but when people say special, they have a very specific meaning in mind, so saying to you everyone is special is pretty much like saying everyone is equal and that is not what those girls want.

Everybody has a part, of who they are, that is different than the usual. That fits the textbook definition of "special ", and
I think that's exactly what those girls want.

last edited at Mar 25, 2018 3:47PM

johnb posted:

Everybody has a part, of who they are, that is different than the usual. That fits the textbook definition of "special ", and
I think that's exactly what those girls want.

They want to be special to Touma, but since everyone is special to Touma, nobody is so there never will be a single girl that is anything more to her than other girls, meaning to Touma none of those girls are actually special, because they are just being their unique selves.

johnb posted:

Everybody has a part, of who they are, that is different than the usual. That fits the textbook definition of "special ", and
I think that's exactly what those girls want.

They want to be special to Touma, but since everyone is special to Touma, nobody is so there never will be a single girl that is anything more to her than other girls, meaning to Touma none of those girls are actually special, because they are just being their unique selves.

Agreed. The girls all want to be Touma's number one. And Touma uses that to get what she wants, but she is able to do that because she makes them feel special.

johnb posted:

but she is able to do that because she makes them feel special.

And that is exactly the issue. They feel special, but to Touma, she is just treating them as everyone else, so their definition of "special" and what it means, are vastly different.

johnb posted:

but she is able to do that because she makes them feel special.

And that is exactly the issue. They feel special, but to Touma, she is just treating them as everyone else, so their definition of "special" and what it means, are vastly different.

Yeah okay. I think we agree that Touma is preying on the girls insecurities. My original point was, that the statement "If everybody is special, then no one is" is wrong. Hahaha Looking back at my post, I think I lost sight of that, a little bit.

last edited at Mar 25, 2018 4:46PM

I have to admit that I just don’t know how useful the hypothetical “if this was het/if the character were a guy” is in analyzing the yuri genre. My sense is that sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t, and maybe it’s more often applicable when discussing the ethics of behavior in general rather than when doing literary analysis of a specific story. But to what extent it is or may be relevant I can’t quite sort out in my head.

The ethics of society influence, the stories, and stories, influence the ethics of society. You can't separate the two.

I certainly don’t think there’s a general rule that “it’s girls, so no problem.” But I also know that a lot of times the answer to the question, “But what if it were a guy doing X?” is that in that case the whole situation would be so utterly transformed that it’s impossible to imagine X happening in the first place.

I can't think of situation where switching the genders involved would change the equation, so much, that situation couldn't happen at all.

last edited at Mar 25, 2018 5:05PM

The ethics of society influence the stories and the stories influence the ethics of society. You can’t separate the two.

That last sentence is clearly not the case—audiences take a great deal of pleasure from lots of stories featuring behavior that would horrify them in real life. Including many stories on this site.

I can't think of situation where switching the genders involved would change the equation, so much, that situation couldn't happen at all.

Maybe “impossible to imagine” was an overstatement. I mean that the given situation never would have arisen in a het-only, het-normative storyworld. Look at the “childhood friends” trope—given het-normativity, then the question at adolescence, “Are they dating/should we date?” is inevitable; in yuri it’s a different story. Asking “what if character A were a guy” means it’s a fundamentally different story from the start.

last edited at Mar 25, 2018 5:29PM

Woah, such discussion. Personally, Touma-kun seems like more of an “I love everyone” kind of girl, rather than some sort of “hump em and dump em” kind of person. I feel like poly relationships that stem from this are healthy, even if it doesn’t happen to intertwine well some people’s ideas of love, that doesn’t mean anyone’s ideas are wrong, the two girls just weren’t meant for eachother, and it’s beautiful they all ended up with up with someone to love despite that. I find this story to be one more of girls finding out who they are rather than a story of heartbreak.

The ethics of society influence the stories and the stories influence the ethics of society. You can’t separate the two.

That last sentence is clearly not the case—audiences take a great deal of pleasure from lots of stories featuring behavior that would horrify them in real life. Including many stories on this site.

I still don't agree. Cheering an outcome, that should horrify us, is a social statement. It lets us explore aspects of our selves, that we couldn't explore, safely, any other way. It also opens the door to questions. like "Why should I be horrified?", and "Would society be better, if we accepted this outcome?".

Think of the 1950's A story where a girl gets the girl would be blaspheme. But a good story might get a open minded person to cheer the couple on. Then make them think it's time for a change.

I can't think of situation where switching the genders involved would change the equation, so much, that situation couldn't happen at all.

Maybe “impossible to imagine” was an overstatement. I mean that the given situation never would have arisen in a het-only, het-normative storyworld. Look at the “childhood friends” trope—given het-normativity, then the question at adolescence, “Are they dating/should we date?” is inevitable; in yuri it’s a different story. Asking “what if character A were a guy” means it’s a fundamentally different story from the start.

I guess, I have to concede that point. But, in my defence, I was thinking of the morals, of sex, and gender politics.

Woah, such discussion. Personally, Touma-kun seems like more of an “I love everyone” kind of girl, rather than some sort of “hump em and dump em” kind of person. I feel like poly relationships that stem from this are healthy, even if it doesn’t happen to intertwine well some people’s ideas of love, that doesn’t mean anyone’s ideas are wrong, the two girls just weren’t meant for eachother, and it’s beautiful they all ended up with up with someone to love despite that. I find this story to be one more of girls finding out who they are rather than a story of heartbreak.

I'm friends with a poly amorous couple, and there is a lot of up front discussion before you initiate someone into a poly relationship. You definitely don't have sex with someone, then tell them, you are one of many.

I guess, I have to concede that point. But, in my defence, I was thinking of the morals, of sex, and gender politics.

Right---we are talking past each other a bit, because I mainly care about how stories work, and generally let the the ethics (as far as reading goes) take care of themselves.

It's just that sometimes people use "what if the gender were reversed?" as a kind of critical trump card, and I'm saying, "Depending on the story, it's not always as simple as all that."

I guess, I have to concede that point. But, in my defence, I was thinking of the morals, of sex, and gender politics.

Right---we are talking past each other a bit, because I mainly care about how stories work, and generally let the the ethics (as far as reading goes) take care of themselves.

It's just that sometimes people use "what if the gender were reversed?" as a kind of critical trump card, and I'm saying, "Depending on the story, it's not always as simple as all that."

Your right. We were definitely trying to make two unrelated points..

last edited at Mar 25, 2018 7:39PM

Wtf with this bitch... I want to slap her so bad it's pissing me off.
Edit : I mean both touma and this btch

last edited at Mar 26, 2018 1:59AM

Meh

johnb posted:

that double standard bothers me.

I think most people here have double standards like that. If it is yuri, it is k or at least it always make it better compare to other options. I know I do and I'm not bothered by it at all since I consider girls superior anyway.

I also disagree with the quote "If everyone is special, then no one is special" Everybody is special in their own way You just have to find it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's kind of awesome that Touma can see, the beauty, in all girls.

So funny I just remembered about this yesterday. The issue is it invalids the meaning of word "special". If everyone is "special" or "one of a kind" or whatever, then that word really loses its meaning. Obviously everyone is different, but when people say special, they have a very specific meaning in mind, so saying to you everyone is special is pretty much like saying everyone is equal and that is not what those girls want.

I think this is a little too reductive and mathematical. It's true that what the girls want from Touma isn't the same as what she can give them, so sure, those two kinds of "special" are different. But that doesn't mean that Touma-kun's special is meaningless. It just has a different meaning.
And saying everyone is special does not mean nobody is. The assumption is that spreading out the specialness leaves you with the same neutral feeling for everyone--that the only way to feel positively about anyone is to feel less positively about someone else. But that's not true. Looking in the other direction for a moment, it's clearly possible to consider the entire human race completely worthless, to in fact feel negatively about all humanity. I've come close to that myself in cynical times of my life. On the other hand some people seem to really like other people on average--Mr Rogers, say. So there isn't a set total amount of regard you can have for people, that just gets divided differently. Different people, or even the same person at different times, can definitely have more or less total liking for people. So I would say Touma-kun really can consider a lot of girls special.
I also think there can be different kinds of "equality". You can have a mass of people who all conform and don't stick out. That's equal, and nobody involved is special. Kind of depressing. But, I play tabletop roleplaying games. We sit around the table and nobody's the leader. But the secret to having a good game that everyone enjoys for a long time is, everyone should have their chance to shine, everyone's individual style should be acknowledged, everyone's character should have their specialty, everyone should get a chance to pull off their own gimmicks. So in my RPGs, everyone is equal--but they are all different and they all stick out, they all have something special going. So that's a different kind of equality, and it's totally compatible with specialness. So I don't think you can treat "special" as just some kind of numerical thing where if one person has more someone else must have less.

Just a reminder for anyone who wants to see a yuri harem series where the character actually cares about her harem look up Iono the Fanatic. She has a giant harem but still loves each one as a person and I knows all about them.

The girls in the harem even pair off and take their own lover. Which she's fine with.

last edited at Mar 26, 2018 6:14AM

amanos artworks are so beautiful!!! i'm super excited for this manga aaa!

Well, what's she supposed to do, though? The start of the second chapter makes the point that girls fall in love with her just by her existing in their presence, and she's unable to fully return their feelings. Should she just avoid everyone completely? I think that's taking too much responsibility for other people's emotions.

She's supposed to pay attention to the feelings of other people and be up front about her intentions before seducing them. Just like anybody is supposed to be conscious of the feelings of other people around them and -try- not to hurt them, for the same reason you try not to actively harm the people you interact with.

She could also not literally laugh off apologizing. The little chuckle under her "I'm sorry" is just the worst.

The main problem with Touma is that she's being enabled. She clearly sees no problem with her own behavior, and when the girls who have problems with her are outnumbered by all the ones who dote on her, it's going to stay that way. The way she reacted to Yuki shows a clear lack of comprehension that her careless actions are hurting people around her.
It may not be fair to say that it's Touma's fault, but saying she did nothing wrong is absolute horseshit.

I really hope that [metaphorically] her face gets shoved in the mud down the line so she has to actually step back and look at herself objectively, and by doing so grow as a character (also so I can stop fantasizing about her face literally getting shoved in the mud).