ForumHana and Hina After School discussion

Popcorn
joined Jun 5, 2015

ZuljinRaynor posted:

Relevant I guess: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvNxgHTWIlo

I agree some of old fan subs used to overuse stuff like that, but now even they admit it's not way to go (I think at least most of them).

Anyway, I don't think money is really a main factor here. Some translators just aren't good at translating. Just because you understand language doesn't mean you can translate it well into other language so it will sound natural etc. And some publishers just doesn't care as much, they just want to have work translated and sold. Some focus on good quality more. I didn't say all official translations are terrible, but some definitely cut the corners. Best example I can give from top of my head, is how Ghibli movie were released here, until anime died for good. You had option for english dub and japanese original sound, but you only had 1 subtitles. For english dub. So if you wanted to watch it in japanes, you would need to use english dub subtitles, which more than often didn't even match what was said. When I first watch it like that I didn't mind, but once I started to understand language more, I couldn't watch it with subtitles, because the difference was so distracting, but on the other hand I wasn't able to watch it without them. So yea, they only bothered to translated english version because it was easier to get a random person who can speak english and pay them to tl it instead of looking for someone who speak japanese as well. And for some time our movies were clearly tl like that as well. Just find person who know english and make them tl movie. There is plenty of translators here, but they mostly work on official documents etc. I doubt they could easily translate book and make it as good as original. As I said, just because you know language, doesn't mean you are good at translating. There is not that many people who actually get a feel for stuff like that.

About word for word vs localization, someone linked great article on discord about it. Anyone who wants to tl anything should read it. http://www.personaproblems.com/

last edited at Jul 1, 2017 10:09PM

Yuri Girl 1001 Uploader
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Fly by Yuri
joined Mar 29, 2013

Thought I'd toss in a comment. From what I can tell, most official translators are fluent in Japanese and probably expected to work relatively quickly. But more importantly, Many publishers want the translation to read as though it was written in English, so sometimes Japanese cultural references get "converted" to American references. And often the publishers like there translators to add a little drama or conflict. (Disney, I'm looking at you.) The result is a very loose translation that sounds good in English and follows the story more or less closely that none the less can, in places, bear no resemblance to the original.

Scanlaters in general have the objective of keeping the translation as close to the original as practical, so our translation tend to be tighter. We almost always keep Japanese cultural references, we try not to add anything, we'll often explain puns or wordplay when it can't simply be translated... Since many of the fans in this community prefer it this way, we'll often see the scanlation as being a better quality translation than the official one.

But that brings up another point. our skill in Japanese vary wildly. I myself am nowhere near fluent in Japanese. I understand the structure of the language and know a lot of phrases, but I rely heavily on online resources for looking up words, kanji, and phrases that I don't know. I also usually ask Procyon to look over it and help me spot any translation errors. But none the less, errors do slip through, though I like to think none of them are big errors. It's been quite instructive for me to compare the official publications of Secret of the Princess and Hana & Hina After School with my translations of them.

So which is better, the official or the scanlation? I think it depends as much on what you're looking for as it does on the publisher and the scanlater. Incidentally, I think Seven Seas has been one of the better ones, staying truer to the original than most publishers.

Ack, it's a small wall of text. Pardon me.

Z3
joined Aug 20, 2016

comes the rest soon? or was the translation canceled?

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

The final English volume of this arrived today. I suppose it could have been even more adorable, although I don’t see how.

I guess I’m just kind of a sucker for Morinaga Milk—that Chapter 15-16 hug scene . . .

23519190_1784036034940610_3865802561690641399_n
joined Oct 4, 2016

Yasss. Sadly, I cannot order this at the moment because I am out on the road and not scheduled to be home until December 28th. But I will be getting it then, you betcha. Picked up the first two volumes a week or so ago, and am looking forward to the third volume.

Bort
joined Aug 3, 2015

Damn it Rightstuf, what gives... I preordered the volume months ago, and it still hasn't shipped? I need this. NEED.

S-l225
joined Jun 28, 2016

The final English volume of this arrived today. I suppose it could have been even more adorable, although I don’t see how.

Lucky you, not available until Dec 13th here in the UK.

Kayo
joined Sep 9, 2016

The final English volume of this arrived today. I suppose it could have been even more adorable, although I don’t see how.

I guess I’m just kind of a sucker for Morinaga Milk—that Chapter 15-16 hug scene . . .

I bought and read it yesterday. Man, what a sweet ending! Loved the magazine cover of them in wedding dresses!

Bort
joined Aug 3, 2015

My copy finally got in today, and oh lord was it worth the wait. Morinaga is just so, so good at making the romance feel real, I could not imagine a more wonderful end for these two! Literally had to put it down a few times because I couldn't handle cuteness of that magnitude.

Also, the author gushing over yuri in the afterword was hilarious. I wonder the same thing myself sometimes...

joined Jun 27, 2017

The webstore I buy my comics and manga has this listed as three volumes, Is that correct?

1461894977557
joined Jun 12, 2015

^Yes.

23519190_1784036034940610_3865802561690641399_n
joined Oct 4, 2016

I enjoyed the 3rd volume, even if the ending did feel a little tacked on. But given that the series was cancelled on short notice, I'm glad she got to write and draw an ending at all.

joined Mar 15, 2017

I enjoyed the 3rd volume, even if the ending did feel a little tacked on. But given that the series was cancelled on short notice, I'm glad she got to write and draw an ending at all.

Its cancellation was decided relatively early, based on sales of volume 1. If sales had been worse it probably would have been made to end without even 2 coming out.

https://twitter.com/morimilmil/status/781655322985312256

last edited at Feb 14, 2018 7:03PM

joined Nov 26, 2017

I enjoyed the 3rd volume, even if the ending did feel a little tacked on. But given that the series was cancelled on short notice, I'm glad she got to write and draw an ending at all.

Its cancellation was decided relatively early, based on sales of volume 1. If sales had been worse it probably would have been made to end without even 2 coming out.

https://twitter.com/morimilmil/status/781655322985312256

Is that for real?

Hogfather
Kouyuri
joined Jan 25, 2016

After a long lull, I'm back at it again! I'm trying to wrap up a polished version of Chapter 16, and hope to be publishing soon. So, to those of you who were asking for the polished version or didn't read the half-assed translations, I've got your back! To those of you who who don't want this polished version, don't care, or are haters, kindly move long :)

Malibu Uploader
Hogfather
Kouyuri
joined Jan 25, 2016

Nevermind, I'm a moron. I didn't realize the official translation was already released. Everyone, go buy it!

https://www.amazon.com/Hana-Hina-After-School-Vol/dp/1626925763

ColdGoldLazarus
Cglishmini
joined Apr 12, 2018

Expecting something like embarrassment and misunderstandings for 30 chapters, not being able to convey one's feelings and "what do i do she doesn't like me!!!" stuff. And of course a kiss in 31 chapter. Spoilers, spoilers.

To be honest I'd rather have that than a retread of Secret Recipe.

Secret Recipe?

lezardthewizard
joined Sep 6, 2016

Well, I guess is Gakuen Polizi all over again for me ... God I hate not being able to buy overseas to get the mangas ... Can someone spoil me if they at least get together? I love Milk Morinaga's works and I really wanna know how this one ends.

joined Aug 24, 2016

ZuljinRaynor posted:

Relevant I guess: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvNxgHTWIlo

I agree some of old fan subs used to overuse stuff like that, but now even they admit it's not way to go (I think at least most of them).

Anyway, I don't think money is really a main factor here. Some translators just aren't good at translating. .......... There is not that many people who actually get a feel for stuff like that.

About word for word vs localization, someone linked great article on discord about it. Anyone who wants to tl anything should read it. http://www.personaproblems.com/

ZuljinRaynor posted a link to a video that points out something out of context, showcasing what exactly? That manga dialog with editorial sounds ridiculous? How often do you read manga out loud? Good quality manga translations don't read well as they weren't designed for that, throwing out mixed language dialog in speech is nothing but clickbait. Try reading the subtitles from a native english animation out loud sometime?

The points made on that page are fair but are no defense of official translations that are commonly bad in all the same ways an amateur translation might be. The only difference is they have literal license to change material references for localization and abuse the hell out of it. Persona 5 itself is proof of that as it showcases an official (and awful) translation.

Honestly I'd take subtitles over dubbing any day, and don't care for heavily localized subtitles of any language. Machine translation is better than half-assed joke substitutions and I don't mind having to look something up if it's important.

last edited at Oct 18, 2018 4:01AM

joined Aug 24, 2016

Thought I'd toss in a comment. From what I can tell, most official translations ..... bear no resemblance to the original.

This drives me away from officially translated material. Any single one would be irritating, but combined it's a travesty. To be clear, regardless of the source language I don't want translators doing any of these things. To top it off, the tone and word choice in official translations I also often disagree with.

Scanlators in general have the objective of keeping the translation ..... at better quality translation than the official one.

Hella respect, this is why I read fan translations, even if when are less polished (which isn't always).

But that brings up another point. our skill in Japanese vary wildly. I myself am nowhere near fluent in Japanese ..... compare the official publications of Secret of the Princess and Hana & Hina After School with my translations of them.

It's always clear when you work on it, and inaccuracy due to inexperience is pretty excusable. Usually scanlators get tone better even if they are inaccurate. Having a comparison translation to grok is amazing though.

So which is better, the official or the scanlation? I think it depends as much on ..... staying truer to the original than most publishers.

While certain series get good or even excellent treatment it's far from consistent. This is similar to how awful dubbing is usually, but the occasional large title that happens to get good voice casting and a competent audio engineer can be watchable in the dubbed language. I'd rather watch a French movie subtitled in Japanese than a poor dub any day and have done so, and I wouldn't read translations if my Japanese was very good.

Ack, it's a small wall of text. Pardon me.

Thanks for your perspectives. (edited to cull paragraphs for thread sanity)

last edited at Oct 17, 2018 11:34PM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

From just a reader's perspective, when comparing scanlations and official translations I'd say that the officials often have a few passages that are notably clearer or smoother idiomatically than the scanlations, while the scanlations almost always are superior in tone and flavor--as I mentioned over in the Secret of the Princess folder, the official translation for that one flattened out at least three of my favorite passages in the scanlation--just little bits of characterization that I really missed.

And while the thread for this one is reawakened, let me just put in a word of praise for Hana's friend Nakano-chan--holding up the proud tradition of straight yuri wingman with her wonderful, "You were always shooting each other . . .like LOVE BEAMS? From your eyes?" line.

Nishiki%20gosu%20rori%20dark%20hair%20sm
joined Jan 11, 2015

I'm very happy that people appreciate my and Kouyuri's work, but please remember that the main reason we — and most other scanlation groups — do this, is because the things we work on isn't available in English yet. While I'm very flattered that some people think our work is higher quality than official releases, I never saw it as my goal to provide free, high quality translations, but rather just to give people the opportunity to read something they otherwise wouldn't be able to (though admittedly, this particular series is somewhat of an exception, as we began working on it after it got licenced).

As for my thoughts on the over-localisation sometimes present in official translations, I think it may be a result of the publishers intended demographic. Scanlations are generally aimed at people with a deep interest in manga — weebs, if you'd like — whereas official publications are generally aimed at a broader audience, who aren't necessarily familiar with untranslated bits of jargon, or honorifics like -san, -sama, -chan, etc. While I certainly prefer translations that stay truer to the original source (whether the original source is in Japanese or any other language), the over-localisation is understandable from a commercial point of view. As for whether it hurts or improves the reader's experience, well, that's another matter. :p

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

I'm very happy that people appreciate my and Kouyuri's work, but please remember that the main reason we — and most other scanlation groups — do this, is because the things we work on isn't available in English yet. While I'm very flattered that some people think our work is higher quality than official releases, I never saw it as my goal to provide free, high quality translations, but rather just to give people the opportunity to read something they otherwise wouldn't be able to (though admittedly, this particular series is somewhat of an exception, as we began working on it after it got licenced).

As for my thoughts on the over-localisation sometimes present in official translations, I think it may be a result of the publishers intended demographic. Scanlations are generally aimed at people with a deep interest in manga — weebs, if you'd like — whereas official publications are generally aimed at a broader audience, who aren't necessarily familiar with untranslated bits of jargon, or honorifics like -san, -sama, -chan, etc. While I certainly prefer translations that stay truer to the original source (whether the original source is in Japanese or any other language), the over-localisation is understandable from a commercial point of view. As for whether it hurts or improves the reader's experience, well, that's another matter. :p

Well, my main point is that many scanlations are very well done, and I really appreciate them. And I do try to buy official versions whenever possible in order to support the people who make possible the work I enjoy.

Some of the things I'm talking about aren't obviously "localizations" per se, though, just flatter translations that lose what seem to be meaningful connotations.

As an example, there's one point in The Secret of the Princess that shows both sides of this, when Miu's mom finds out about her relationship with Fujiwara (I'm away from my books at the moment, so can't quote exactly):

Scanlation: "If your senpai isn't the jewel of the palanquin!"

OK, I know what "palanquin" means because I'm a vocabulary nerd, but that's certainly got to change for a general English-speaking audience. I get that.

Official: "Maybe you'll marry rich!"

Now, the Mom starts out as a bit of a background villainess in that story because she's the one who always insisted that Miu had to be cute so her prince would come (just one more instance of the familiar "parent always told child this one rigid thing that totally warped their subsequent view of life" trope).

So that one panel is a bit of rehab for Mom's character, and in the scanlation her approval of the girls' relationship is because she's yuri-friendly (i.e., anybody would go yuri for a babe like that) as opposed to her still being calculating and acquisitive in the official version.

Again, maybe the official is more accurate to the Japanese (I have zero Japanese). but the scanlation seems to suggest "beauty amid richness," and there's a slight but not inconsequential difference in both tone and characterization there.

I mention this not because it's a huge deal--it's not--but just as an example of how sometimes it's not only local flavor and cultural grace notes that seem to get lost in the official translations.

Yuri Girl 1001 Uploader
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Fly by Yuri
joined Mar 29, 2013

As the scanlater of The Secret of the Princess I thought I'd toss in a note here. The jewel of the palanquin line is in fact a very literal translation of the Japanese. And I too had to look up palanquin, though I'd heard the word before. Procyon and I had something of a discussion on whether to leave it as is or change it for that very reason. I'm glad we chose to leave it as is.

I was rather disappointed with the change Seven Seas made here. But I still think they are one of the best publishers in this regard.

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