Forum › Chirizokonai no Hiraeth discussion

joined Apr 16, 2022

Is it me or there's a lot of double suicide going on? Also: Supernatural tag?

Lovers' suicides have been a common theme in Japanese media for centuries.

Capture
joined Mar 2, 2019

Jeez since they actually jumped I was seriously expecting a splat, glad that's not what happened

last edited at Nov 16, 2023 12:30AM

Undertale%20deltarune%20fukufire%20skateboard%20gay
joined Aug 4, 2021

I really needed this

342713096_945190890232560_6363820535049258469_n
joined Mar 18, 2023

nice start

Kohaku%20avatar%20500px
joined Jul 10, 2016

I'm

Hmm.

All right, let's see where this goes.

Internet_lied
joined Jul 15, 2016

"I guess they just couldn't fly today."

I must confess, the writing of the story really has me feeling the dread and the rush when they stepped out on that ledge. This is beautifully written and tragically sad, but a wonderful read so far.

Yeah, the scene was wonderfully emotive. And the fact that it happened at the end of chapter 1, before the story and main characters were actually established, meant that it could have really gone in all manner of ways.

DIdn't though they would go all the way. That's a twist i didn't see coming.Also what can i say. Otome is a bitch who find a simpletonin Kazura and Kazura is an idiot who can't see she was getting played like a damn fiddle. So already on a great start in terms of characters. Don't know enough of Yoshiba to judge her.

Saw some folks riffing on Kazura, but I do not think this is fair. Kazura is a mentally ill person with a terminally deficient sense of self (and likely a history of trauma), so how she feels about herself is entirely dependent on how others treat her. That is why she goes into debt to gain Otome's approval (or "love" as she calls it), and then jumps off the roof to gain Kinka's. She has never experienced unconditional love, and the moment she is rejected (by Otome and then by her mom), the emotional pain immediately overwhelms her, so she spends more effort running from this pain than pursuing what she wants from life. It is best seen in the scene where she first calms down and decides against going through with her suicide, then receives Otome's call that instantly overloads her emotional pain sensors again and causes her to agree to Kinka's plan.

It's way too early to read this much into the text, but I think all of the above are the symptoms of an untreated quiet borderline disorder. Which would explain why she ended up with a narcissist like Otome -- borderline sufferers very often do, as the two disorders basically enable and reinforce each other. If she is, indeed, on the borderline spectrum, then a relationship with a non-narcissist, while no replacement for a proper therapy (DBT), may help her heal. We don't know yet why Kinka was suicidal, but by the way she gracefully backs out before Otome's call, it seems she has a more secure sense of self, at least.

PS: If anyone needs a palate cleanser after this chapter, I recommend Chandelier and Rooftop Miracle.

last edited at Nov 16, 2023 3:47AM

91107743_210163720238204_8085939365433311232_n
joined Oct 15, 2015

I don't remember Killer Queen working on multiple people at once.

joined May 29, 2021

Hmm, so the question is will this be Groundhog Day style or Re: Zero style? Are they stuck in a day or do they just get sent back to a checkpoint if they die?

ArtemisOnVtubers
1689895377338
joined Dec 16, 2021

They should had bang first

last edited at Nov 16, 2023 5:38AM

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joined May 8, 2017

Seems like a nice, cozy read. There's a sense of comfort in getting to know someone who also casually looks for places to die.

joined Oct 2, 2021

Supernatural
Extraterrestrial

Intergalactic planetary, planetary intergalactic...

Another dimension
Another dimension
Another dimension
Another dimension

Tamo%20eat%20rice%2023
joined Oct 16, 2021

Hmm, dunno if it's headed in that direction, but I've been craving some more ghost yuri since I finished okujou no yurirei / Kindred Spirits on the Roof

joined Feb 24, 2023

The way I would’ve been dead inside if I didn’t see “Ch 1” in the title lmao

joined May 10, 2021

Nice, I've been craving for an extremely depressing yuri for a little while now.
Hopefully this can be it.
Thanks for the chapter!

Yeecon
joined Feb 6, 2013

Oooh spooky! I hope that Otome and her boyfriend get what's coming to them too.

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joined Oct 14, 2014

Is it me or there's a lot of double suicide going on? Also: Supernatural tag?

Also again: If someone tried to off themselves and the paramedic sabe them somehow... How would that person feel?

Depends on if it's in the USA or not.
lmao...

2
joined Apr 14, 2022

If someone tried to off themselves and the paramedic save them somehow... How would that person feel?

Speaking from experience: absolute hatred.

It will depend on the type of suicidalness. Almost all of the discourse you see around suicide is about the people who attempt it impulsively. Those people usually regret it, and would be grateful for being saved. (Kazura probably falls into this camp.)

But there's another type of suicidal person that society generally tries to pretend doesn't exist. The kind of person who is suicidal for years, who genuinely wants to die and plans out their death. That was me.

The typical response to suicidal people is "call this stupid hotline" before they do it, or "restrain them for a few days until the impulse is gone" during/after an attempt. Of course, such responses probably are effective for the first type of person. But as you can imagine, they do absolutely nothing to address the reasons why a person who genuinely wants to die, wants to die. Indeed, having my freedom stripped away from me in the aftermath of my attempt just made me want to kill myself even more.

It's closely related to how society and the medical profession view depression as a primarily chemical disorder. They always focus on the type of clinical depression where a successful family man with a stable career, loving marriage and children, who is well-off financially, ends up depressed anyways, and come to the solution that depression is something to be cured by pills.

But there's another type of depression that doesn't have nearly as much acknowledgement, which has nothing to do with an actual medical condition like a chemical imbalance in the brain. Colloquially, it's known as Shit Life Syndrome. For some people, their life is so bad, devoid of happiness, full of suffering... that of course they're depressed. And if your prospects are bleak for ever not being in constant pain, well, suicide becomes incredibly appealing, since what's the point of living a life in which nobody cares about you and you only experience unpleasant things?

Anyways, that got a bit long winded, but that's how I felt and why I felt that way about being saved against my will. I'm absolutely intrigued by this story, because it looks like it might be trying to represent both types of suicidal person. Kazura decided to die on impulse in response to being thrown away, but her impulse will almost certainly disappear the moment someone shows they care about her. Yoshibe, on the other hand, appears to be more like myself. I'm looking forward to seeing more about her.

Ah, I should mention to make sure nobody starts expressing fake concern, I haven't been suicidal for 8 years now. (Even so, that hasn't changed my view of being saved, either. I don't regret attempting suicide.)

joined Oct 10, 2016

Oh no, please don't do Oshi no Ko and don't get reborn as Otome's child...
EDIT: OH THANK GOD, but wait, Groundhog day?

last edited at Nov 16, 2023 3:00PM

Screen%20shot%202024-03-24%20at%209.39.46%20am
joined May 8, 2017

Kazura decided to die on impulse in response to being thrown away, but her impulse will almost certainly disappear the moment someone shows they care about her. Yoshibe, on the other hand, appears to be more like myself. I'm looking forward to seeing more about her.

This was a very interesting comment. Thank you for your perspective.

I work in mental health for part of my job. One of the major things we assess is the patient's risk of harm to self and others. That determines whether we let them out of hospital or not. Basically, if they want to die we do everything we can to restrain them from doing so - taking instruments away from their rooms, keeping them in a locked ward, etc.

It's a strange sort of absurdism where I look upon the patients and think if I were in their position, I really wouldn't want people interfering in my own attempt to die. But I still do it (contribute to the life-saving attempts) anyway.

Suicide is not like other medical conditions. In the vast majority of patients, the will to live is strong. Yet I've seen how suicide attempts, if saved, can leave the patient even worse off than if they were dead - spinal cord injuries, going back home to a shitty situation like you described, and so forth. But it's just logistically simpler to save people from suicide when you're the medical personnel on the scene. You assume everyone, deep down, has a survival instinct and go from there. Absolves you from having to ask the hard questions. More importantly, it absolves you from litigation. And it comforts the feelings of the overwhelming majority to know that yes, medical personnel will do everything they can to stop your loved one dying even if they don't want to be stopped.

I don't know deep down whether I always agree with the whole 'saving people from suicide' song and dance. But life is a circus and you just have to go along with it sometimes. Besides, as medical personnel staying alive ourselves, aren't we tacitly supporting the camp of 'life' - whether or not our thoughts secretly desire to be on the other side? There's no-one left alive from 'the other side' to root for you, anyway!

That said, there are attempts in some countries to make euthanasia legal for severe depression. Note here that the emphasis is on legal - firstly making sure it's not on the spur of the moment - but the conclusion (which some may find callous) is that it really doesn't matter if one person decides to end their life, so long as the process is controlled and we have the documentation that it's not the medical system's fault. It's all about legal responsibility. Maybe a bit of humanity thrown in the mix too, but 'humanity' is a loaded and ill-defined term.

last edited at Nov 16, 2023 3:39PM

F1acc4f4c13f3f35bfa861ae2915d2693d0f5bd4_hq
joined Dec 30, 2014

"Ch01" had me thinking they wouldn't actually jump, so - color me surprised. Curious where this is going to go.

me too lol got bamboozled

I must confess, the writing of the story really has me feeling the dread and the rush when they stepped out on that ledge. This is beautifully written and tragically sad, but a wonderful read so far.

It’s also beautiful that the universe saw fit to give them another chance, so they could both go back and give Otome (henceforth known as Cuntasaurus) a colossal pride obliterating bitch slap.

Otome being known as Cuntasaurus is everything

38074
joined Jan 11, 2022

Super interesting start, looking forward to seeing where this goes!

38074
joined Jan 11, 2022

That said, there are attempts in some countries to make euthanasia legal for severe depression. Note here that the emphasis is on legal - firstly making sure it's not on the spur of the moment - but the conclusion (which some may find callous) is that it really doesn't matter if one person decides to end their life, so long as the process is controlled and we have the documentation that it's not the medical system's fault. It's all about legal responsibility. Maybe a bit of humanity thrown in the mix too, but 'humanity' is a loaded and ill-defined term.

I think the real problem comes into play when the process to provide quality long term mental health is faulty (Like most under-funded overwhelmed medical processes).

Another problem and probably the most glaring one is simply greed, bean counters realizing your life ended at a young age is a massive sum of government money saved. Money saved is money earned.

And of course organ harvesting, though I don't think there's a sound moral argument against not harvesting organs so that someone else can live a full life.

Sadly the fact is we don't live in a world where the 99% have access to any form of legitimate long term mental healthcare, so I feel like implementing that idea in the state our world is in is a slippery slope to something much darker.

joined Feb 1, 2021

It will depend on the type of suicidalness. Almost all of the discourse you see around suicide is about the people who attempt it impulsively. Those people usually regret it, and would be grateful for being saved. (Kazura probably falls into this camp.)

But there's another type of suicidal person that society generally tries to pretend doesn't exist. The kind of person who is suicidal for years, who genuinely wants to die and plans out their death.

But there's another type of depression that doesn't have nearly as much acknowledgement, which has nothing to do with an actual medical condition like a chemical imbalance in the brain. Colloquially, it's known as Shit Life Syndrome. For some people, their life is so bad, devoid of happiness, full of suffering... that of course they're depressed. And if your prospects are bleak for ever not being in constant pain, well, suicide becomes incredibly appealing, since what's the point of living a life in which nobody cares about you and you only experience unpleasant things?

IMO in order to maintain this distinction you have to assume a level of objective self-understanding that isn't really possible. Or at any rate, I'd be careful to make assumptions about who's suffering "Shit Life Syndrome" and who isn't.

Screen%20shot%202024-03-24%20at%209.39.46%20am
joined May 8, 2017

I think the real problem comes into play when the process to provide quality long term mental health is faulty (Like most under-funded overwhelmed medical processes).

Another problem and probably the most glaring one is simply greed, bean counters realizing your life ended at a young age is a massive sum of government money saved. Money saved is money earned.

And of course organ harvesting, though I don't think there's a sound moral argument against not harvesting organs so that someone else can live a full life.

Sadly the fact is we don't live in a world where the 99% have access to any form of legitimate long term mental healthcare, so I feel like implementing that idea in the state our world is in is a slippery slope to something much darker.

There are many things in your comment to address.

  1. Mental health may not help that much in itself. It is the hope that it helps, that helps.

  2. Every system is underfunded and overwhelmed. Let's take that as the baseline.

  3. Or, if everything is underfunded and overwhelmed, we can argue that nothing is underfunded and overwhelmed. There must be some other issue at play here.

  4. In our vast interconnected society, we are dealing with hundreds of people a day who we do not know, do not care about and will never see again. It seems that in this type of society, preserving life needs a legal process - and killing people needs a legal process too. It's all very bizarre and interesting to me.

  5. Of course, legal systems are a means of control so that the net harms inflicted upon us by other humans' self-interest can seem more predictable to us.

  6. Self-interest seems less culpable if you don't know the people you're hurting. Experiments show that our social circle is roughly capped to 150 people. Beyond that, we cannot care.

  7. So why would it be a slippery slope, if the world was dark in the first place?

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