Why do you guys want this discussion to end ? Genuinely asking. Often in online communities there's this need to shut down heated discourse, but that discourse can be important and useful. You solve 0 problems by burying them and you don't grow up as an individual either. Personally I find this discussion interesting and the quality of the interventions if quite high for an internet debate.

Why are you acting like some kind of authority? Like having your own opinion is one thing but this reads like you genuinely expect people to weigh your opinion over anyone else's.

Not on purpose. Could be I'm just french and I don't translate my feelings well. Or I'm just french period. ;)

I understand where the usage has been for a long time, I am saying this as a transfem that gets real autistic about language and changes in language, there has been a shift in people using it the way I've noted where it is less rebellious spirit, and more envy of visible transness. Same change happening with sapphic being used around trans lesbians' relationships to cis lesbians becoming more common. The word morphing into this kind of shorthand for "not entirely lesbian" is having transmisogynistic consequences of separating trans lesbians from their lesbianism. Maybe its too label obsessed but my non trans woman partner has noticed that particular pattern too.

No, I think your concerns are valid. The whole sapphic/lesbian thing, just like bisexual/pansexual, cristallyzes a problem we have in activism in general with needing to aknowledge a difference, without using it as leverage to oppress people. I do think also that the semantics are really hard on autistic people when they get blurry and bad things infiltrate in them.

However I think you conflate semantics variations with bad uses they have way too much. You are right that "sapphic" can be used as a way to oppress trans people, but not always. It's not structural to the term. It has good uses too, and some people need it. It helps include the trans men that do not always want the term "lesbian" used. Self-determination means we need to be able to chose the way we identify. Of course we can argue about whether or not that's a good idea ! But then it becomes something to discuss calmly inside our community - not something to get angry about.

Which leads to another point I want to stress out again : I really think you shouldn't misdirect your anger. I don't say that to tone police you - is that even really sensical between us ? are we in an oppression dynamics currently ? I dont think so - I say that because ANGER (as an activism tool) is something that should be used against oppressors. Just like calling out. When I see trans women calling out other trans women, I get so tired and sad - callout is a tool to fight cis white guys and/or people in position of unfair power. Callout against minorities from minorities is just unfair violence. If we can't even discuss and educate between us, how are we supposed to do it with others ?

I assure you "genderfuck" is -ours-, and if cis fetishists start to use it against us, we will do as always : be louder, and middle finger them. But honestly, I believe your experience of this use is very personal and local - as pointed by many here - so don't get too concerned about this.

This is real bizarre to me because later you position yourself above "social justice activism"

Oh fuck no, not at all. It's my whole life. I am critical of the problems we have, in activist communities. That's what I mean. I think Zesc pointed a bit of the same thing :
- us being too hard on our sisters and brothers, often even more than on our oppressors
- us lacking nuance on social justice discourse, being too 1/0 - when in fact social justice is all about nuance
- activism purity (which is related)

(Sorry a lot of those terms I know in french but not in english : "pureté militante", "adelphes", etc.)

We shouldn't be fighting between us. A third of the world hates us, we don't have time to hate ourselves on top of that. If we don't have the energy to be patient with our cis neighbours, at least we have to try hard to be with our sisters and brothers.

I do get angry too - the dynasty discord is tired with me because I get real mad once in a while. I got suspended for being real mad twice on this forum. I regret none of those times - I got mad for very very valid reasons every time. However, I very very very rarely get mad at people that aren't cis guys. With cis guys you often have to get angry at some point, because they often won't listen otherwise. Tbh they often won't listen even if you do get angry, but hey, at least someone said the things. But anger is never the best option - it's the one you use when the other failed.

I am mostly here just spilling my opinion to the wind and have given up on this site being any kind of hospitable place to trans people and trans readings of text. I'd love it if I could come here and talk about my plural readings but those take a backseat when there is such pushback against the former.

Well know that I do appreciate your comments, I left the dynasty forums long ago because people were unsufferable, but I find all the people on this thread articulate and constructive, even if you fight.

(also I appreciate Casusby work on this quite a lot - I thought their whole personality was being grumpy, but turns out they're actually quite nice and funny :D )

You can add me on discord @clarasylke to discuss this. I encourage you to join the dynasty discord too if you aren't on it, people can be really upsetting on discord too, but a lot of them are really nice, and the trans woman community is sweet imo.

Ah yes boku girl where the pervert crossdresser was a product of his father's sexual assault which is framed as a joke and the main characters femininity is validated by heterosexuality.

I said it was funny, not that it was nonproblematic - Boku Girl doesnt talk much about transidentity imo. It's a fun read for trans women (I personnally think) and it makes me laugh a lot, but the IQ is negative and that's OK.

I'm not saying Boku Girl is any good, I'm just saying it's not transphobic. I read it recently and it did not offend me - unlike Girly Debut that offended me a few times already. Even then I dont think Girly Debut is particularly transphobic - it's written by a cis guy that is as uneducated as his MC. That's how i see it.

And prunus girl really relied on "tr*p reveal" punchlines and the only thing halfway salvageable is its cageyness around the trans character's identity, which can be mischaritably read as nonbinary, but is really just doing the whole "there is no trans" mouthpiece thing.

You analyze it through the prism of transidentity, but you can't use this prism if the manga is not even talking about it. It's like getting mad at Horou Musuko because the trans guy wans't a trans guy at all. That's not what it's talking about. (I'm aware of the author being seen as problematic by some and dug into it the other day : they're most likely not)

Prunus Girl MC is a very good representation of nonbinary and/or genderfluid MC. I rarely felt more gender-represented in a manga. MC doesnt give a fuck. The whole manga is about not knowing whether they are male or female - and you never, ever know, which is why it's so good. Because it doesnt matter. That's what the manga is telling you. Who cares if the MC is girl, guy, or whatever ? I think they themselves say they're genderfluid/nonbinary - not with those words, but it's litterally what they say.

Prunus Girl MC is like "yeah, I'm a trap. A litteral, self-identitying trap. You wanna get a taste, cute boy ?" and I love that. They're playing with gender codes and genderfucking their way out of it until everyone has to agree that yeah, gender is dumb, and everyone should do whatever they want. This is why I think Prunus Girl is, in fact, one of the best mangas in term of its message.

The MC is not made fun of ever - in fact, everyone fucking loves them, even adores them. This is the opposite of a transphobic representation. If the male reader doesn't like them genderfucking everything, they're a loser - it's what it says, basically.

It's also not fetishist, as far as I remember the "wow a girl with a dick so hot" message is completely absent of the whole manga.

Also lets not one-word trans man and trans woman., I know its nitpicky but that doesnt change that that is not our language and mashing them together serves a little nasty purpose.

Most of us aren't even speaking english as our primary language - so yeah you're indeed nitpicking, but I hear you. I know the distinction is sometimes pointed out because I read stuff outside french activism circles obviously, but in France that distinction doesnt exist at all. We have our local TERFs to worry about hahaha.

All this appeal to nuance and people are still dodging the whole balls thing. Why am I seeing a panel of panties with balls stretched out over the sides like its the funniest thing ever.

Yeah, that's one of the things that offended me. But nuance in fact is that : differentiating "this thing offended me", and "it is transphobic".

If the manga was all about depicting trans women as men in girls clothing, and everything was a way to make fun of "a 'male' body in a skirt", I would so agree with you. But it's not. Half of the manga is weirdly positive actually. And don't you think that the fact none of them can guess "who is the --real woman--" is actually extremely trans-positive ? Isn't it the best "fuck you" one can give to the whole "we can always tell" discourse ? The MC essentialist views are litterally destroyed in an educational way - this is not what transphoby looks like.

This is why I talk about nuance. You are obsessing a bit (I say that with kindness) on the few things that are problematic, and you infer that they reveal something about the manga as a whole - but I dont think they do.

I think the manga isn't really good, but isnt transphobic either - just poorly executed, with good things and bad things in it, but right now the good things outweight the bad by a fair margin in my opinion. There's so many worse representations to talk about.

but the context is transvestigation, the entitlement to knowing what is inside that article of clothing and the appeal to one bodily standard for what is worn.

There's nothing problematic about cis guys travesting and other cis guys trying to guess - it's all fun and games. If it push cis guys to play around with their gender and sexuality, all the best.

It's not the investigation that is problematic, it's when it targets a trans woman, or someone who is doing it seriously and wants privacy. But none of them are trans women as far as we know of, so far - Kitano could be one, but if she is, her treatment is overall quite OK so far. (faaaaar from perfect, don't get me wrong - but nothing to get really angry at imo)

However I do agree that normalizing "transvestigation" is a problem - but just like before, I dont think this prism makes much sense when we're talking about people that are not trans.

The whole chapter about trying to see someone panties is CRINGE, yes, but it's also not supported by the author. Multiple characters are clearly stating that it is fucking wrong - so if anything, it's condemned.

I'd say the main problem is that the author portrays bad stuff and points it's bad, but does it clumsily. This is why I say the manga is poorly executed, but not transphobic. It does a bad job, but that's all there is to it.

When you say that this being poorly executed is a problem : yes. I agree 100% with you. But is this worth so much heat ? Nah. Again, just a bad manga, who otherwise has good things in it.

that you yourself seem conflicted in attaching yourself to.

I don't. I'm annoyed at activism patterns I often see, especially in young activists circles. I'm 38, joined a shitton of circles over the years, and the problems I pointed often appear in circles with young people - under 25, or even under 22. Not always, but often. We should do a better job at welcoming young queer people in activism, and educating on nuance and why it's important. Anger is easy to master, nuance is harder.

^ that part was blatantly racist and antiblack. I am going to respond how I should. I should have been more explicit about this but I will be now. I don't believe I said anything untoward in kind as someone white. I'm not gonna mince words and I am going to step up and shut down that mockery when I see it. That was a racist thing to say as it specifically is a phrase used by black activists and you used it to mock me first. I'm done here.

I won't comment on that, as I'm white, and french, so I have no idea what this is about. All I can say is we call each other out way too fast in our communities, be it homophobia, transphobia, racism, ableism, etc. So I tend to ponder. And at the same time, I also heard something extremely racist once, and saw my black and maghrebin friends get suddenly very sad and tense, without me realizing AT ALL it was racist, because I had no idea what it was referencing - as I'm very privileged on this. So really, idk.

Scorpion, I believe you should explain what you meant by using this specific sentence. I'm sure you meant no ill intent, but Sillie is right to point it, even if they annoy the hell out of you.

Casusby forbade me to comment here so here I am, because I hate to disappoint.

Honnestly, pleasantly surprised by nearly all posters here, including those I disagree with or those that are very angry. (Zesc your posts are so fucking good.) Looks like the classic activist shitshow. I won't add much to the discussion, just point a few things :
- "genderfuck" is a very queer term actually that is employed by very queer people like me in very queer places. I'm not sure why you would think it's transphobic or fetishizing - I really dont get it. I spent nearly a decade in the queer activists circles of my countries, where the more genderfucking you are the better. I'm friend with transmen, transwoman, and weird lifeforms that enjoy destroying gender everyday as a permanent performance and middle-finger to patriarchy. Genderfuck is our vocabulary.
- I loved prunus girl (and find Boku Girl hilarious) and I'm among the most queer transwomen you can imagine - HRT, FFS, SRS, but also tatooed enby short hair butch with leg hair that doesnt give the slightest fuck about how they're gendered. Most people IRL are so uncertain about my gender that they bug in real time.
- I do agree though that a lot of trans manga are perpetuating tropes that are harmful - but I dont quite understand why those would be the one quoted here. I pointed some in the past that didnt sit right with me, but honnestly prunus girl for example is very good at communicating a lot of very good and healthy stuff.

But overall, I'd just say one thing : nuance. It's what's usually lacking in social justice activism.

I dont like this manga, I find it rather poor in quality actually. I kinda liked it at first, but the more it unfolds, the worse I think it is. But is it transphobic ? Mmm not so sure. On the contrary I think "queer" and "genderfuck" are fitting. The manga annoys me quite frequently and some things make me thing the author would need the same educationnal experiences as their MC. But transphobic ? Doesnt quite feel like it so far. It pictures some transphobic acts, but it doesnt feel like it's validating them. Quite the opposite. Jokes are on common transphobic tropes, but are they communicating transphobia ? I dont think so either.

So that's my nuanced view on it : it's quite bad and poorly executed, but I dont think it's transphobic either, so far. Might change my mind later.

I don't agree with you much SillieHonka, but I like how articulate you are, and I understand the anger. It's not blind and stupid anger, so even though I don't agree with you, I can respect that.

However, I agree with Scorpion and Zesc in the sense that you should nuance your views a bit on this one. Being angry about something is fine (and I get how you would get angry at this manga - not blaming you for it), but you're not fighting cis straight guys reaking misogyny here. 90% of this thread is made of trans women. This forum has enough problematic people for you to get angry at - the ones on this topic shouldnt be your prime target. ;)

As for me, I think this was great and really nailed it.

But that might just be because I know very, very well what it’s about.

Why the yuri tag tho

I don't really get kinks and sexuality un general but this sounds pretty tame compared to 99% of the sexuality spectrum... Not sure I understand all the emotions

Didn't like the ending, ugly granny just had to ruin everything interesting. Also didn't like this sudden change in the story. It's as if the first half was written by an extraordinary child with imagination running out of borders, drawing cool creatures and purple spiky trees or something. Then in the second half a boring adult came and said "No, the trees should be green and leafy!", and the child went like "Yes, mama..." and started to redraw everything.

Yep. I was so happy when I was reading the beginning. Then it went boring, disappointing and sad. I think this series is one of my worst disappointment. I'm not even mad, I'm just sad. :/

I wish it was a manga. I wish real life was actually more happy.
One day my stepmother told me she was against giving my little sister sad things to read. And then I remembered crying with my mother, reading sad child's sorry. I remembered the end of Dancer in the Dark when I was like 11. I remembered all the time I was hurt by stories, and how it did not -prepare- me to pain : it -trained- me to hurt better and better : more and more. I'm 36 and I still end up reading these things, crying in my bed, as if life was not already such a pain to deal with. I don't get why we do that, honnestly. It puzzles me.

Anyway. Just a tant, but also a somewhat philosophical, or societal consideration. I don't need sad stories in my life. The happy stories are the one that kept me alive all these years, through layers of depression. The sad one are just trying to kill me faster.

Toxic yuri but it's so toxic it's healthy in the end

Wish that were me

last edited at Aug 8, 2024 6:32PM

She reminds me of myself when I'm talking about my asexuality spectrum.
It's like yeah, I'm not into it generally speaking, I'm just going with the flow right now... Hem...

God yes

What a horrible ending! Just like all of mine.

I know right ?

Well it was good, and terribly sad. I loved it but now I need a shot of happiness.

Perfect happy ending <3 loved it !

?!

I've read this again and boy, it's so sweet and a lot of moments are realistic and relatable. Lesbian drama at its finest. I want more.

This idea that your love will win through sheer willpower is very toxic, because 99% of the time the thing that prevents your love from happening is the other person, and whether their reasons for saying no are good or not is irrelevant.

Ayaka is forcing Hiroko and whether it's for the best or not is irrelevant too, she should just stop.

I love Ayaka, but I think my love for her comes from romanticizing something that really shouldn't be.

Point here is that Hiroko is also desperately in love with Ayaka as well and has been for a while, and Ayaka is cutting through her self-sabotage and fears by being a charging bull. Hiroko is not that toxic as a potential girlfriend (her being a player is reflection of her yearning for a relationship she never dared to have), she's just destructive towards herself because of all that previous trauma. It's not "you'll learn to love me", or "forced sex to spark love", "I'll make you gay/straight" or any of those other truly deplorable tropes.

As for whether they could stay together, I think it is a completely moot point here, even if 10 year age gap relationships aren't the most stable. Ayaka wants to date Hiroko of today, she's not worried or concerned about few years down the road. Hiroko might be, but she's getting the better side of the deal with a cute and much younger girl literally throwing herself in her arms. Even if it ends at some point, at least she'd finally experienced a proper relationship with someone who wanted to be with her.

I also don't think Ayaka has as many false ideas about Hiroko anymore as she initially had, as she's had few bitter moments with her and made effort to learn about Hiroko and how wlw relationships are in reality through other people who are like her and have observed Hiroko through these years.

Nice, some proper character analysis.

DynastyS is a great place to check comments if you want to see some grandstanding and fragility - some of these people really think someones going to read this manga and think its going to negatively impact peoples understanding of a healthy relationship. Its a manga, of all the mangas to be picking apart, this is one of the most wholesome that exists. And, at the same time, their analysis of "toxicity" is usually so fucking surface-level its hilarious. But, thats the queer analysis for ya, helpful to no one, destroys its own allies

Well, medias do impact our views on the world. Maybe you're not build in a way that stories shape you, but for a lot of people, it's like that. This manga affects me. It creates this idea in me that it's wholesome and positive to charge like a bull when someone is saying no to me and I'm sure they love me. I did it several times in the past because books and mangas gave me this false idea about romance. And I did hurt people because of that.

So maybe keep your petty remarks for you. :)

Everyone's loving Ayaka but I get the feeling that in real life she would end up in jail pretty fast.

You can love Ayaka, but don't be like Ayaka ;)

This idea that your love will win through sheer willpower is very toxic, because 99% of the time the thing that prevents your love from happening is the other person, and whether their reasons for saying no are good or not is irrelevant.

Ayaka is forcing Hiroko and whether it's for the best or not is irrelevant too, she should just stop.

I love Ayaka, but I think my love for her comes from romanticizing something that really shouldn't be.

Yeah irl she should've taken the no as a no and moved on. This is one of those cases where I think people would see her behavior way differently if she was a man, y'know

Just gonna point out she's also had Hiroko's friends encouraging and supporting her? She isn't acting in a vacuum of information here. Everybody around them knows HIroko is super into Ayaka. Ayaka has seen firsthand how Hiroko reacts to her. She's been told about Hiroko's trauma. She knows why Hiroko is trying to cut her loose and she knows her reasons are unfounded. She has good reasons to believe that Hiroko is actively running from her real feelings, she isn't just clinging to a delusion because she can't let go of a crush.

Yeah, if somebody says no, you should respect that. But there's nothing wrong with being honest about your own feelings, either. She didn't force herself on anybody, she confronted her honestly and directly. And she was right?

Do you guys honestly think she should have just let Hiroko continue to run from her feelings? Stick to shallow relationships? Hide from her trauma? Go back to hitting on random chicks at the bar?

The problem with this "I can fix her" and "she will be happier with me she loves me" is that sure, maybe you're right and it's in the best interest of everyone... But maybe you're wrong and the other outsider are too. (honnestly friends are usually the last person you should ask that kind of things) Ayaka does not read the manga she exists in. She has no way to know for sure it's the right thing to do. Even for us readers you could argue it's not 100% certain.

When someone says no, it means no. If you insist and harass and press on, you're being a harasser. It can be pretty damaging for the person you interact with. I've been both Hiroko and Ayaka and I can say this for sure. :) Sometimes you say no to someone you love, and yes, it means no.

Everyone's loving Ayaka but I get the feeling that in real life she would end up in jail pretty fast.

You can love Ayaka, but don't be like Ayaka ;)

This idea that your love will win through sheer willpower is very toxic, because 99% of the time the thing that prevents your love from happening is the other person, and whether their reasons for saying no are good or not is irrelevant.

Ayaka is forcing Hiroko and whether it's for the best or not is irrelevant too, she should just stop.

I love Ayaka, but I think my love for her comes from romanticizing something that really shouldn't be.

Haha it was very realistic, sounds like the life of a lot of people I know, including myself. At least they have love so it's a pretty good ending. I'm fine with that.

HAHAHAHAHA that manga is just excellent.

The spirit of yuri is embodied and it's angry :D

It's a very funny, unlikely mix. Not sure if the author is a genius or the worse otaku on earth, or both.

Good idea, because everyone knows that going friends with benefits when you're in love with someone is the most healthy idea possible

Sometimes you need to get it out of your system (literally in that situation right now myself). It's not necessarily the best idea, but if you're mature about it and communicate well with the other person then it can work out fine.

Well if it works for you, good !

For a lot of people, it will just deepen the feelings and make it hurt even more. Also it can make it a lot harder to move on.

Seems like a risky enterprise to me :p But to each their own. :)

Good idea, because everyone knows that going friends with benefits when you're in love with someone is the most healthy idea possible

I hope we will get more of this one day. It's so good -

To me it's more like it's become more and more obvious that her feelings are not and will never be reciprocated and it makes the whole thing more and more sad with each new chapter.

God I have a high tolerance to sugar but this is cringe xD

Still cute I guess