Forum › Citrus + discussion

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

After all, let’s be frank, in the end the side characters and pairings are always more interesting than the main couple.

Let’s be frank, in the end this is a completely specious generalization—sometimes they are, and very often they’re not.

Like others have said, I find Harumin (to say nothing of her almost invisible sister) to be profoundly uninteresting except as someone for Yuzu to talk to, and the domesticated version of Matsuri only slightly less so.

And as Lilliwyt says, the idea that the only options for Mei and Yuzu are artificial “drama” or this bizarre developmental regression where they appear to have lost about 5 years from the earliest chapters is quite preposterous. (I mean seriously—you’re engaged to be married and you’re still doing that “talking through the teddy bear” thing?)

As just a crazy example off the top of my head, scenes of them sitting around at home having a friendly everyday conversation (you know, in the bed they actually share) would be quite commensurate with a series whose main focus is the other characters.

last edited at Nov 22, 2020 7:18PM

19243370_189319978264256_7134889760776107126_o
joined Dec 26, 2014

Reading citrus and not caring about mei and yuzu is like watching madoka and not giving a shit about homura and her pink goddess

last edited at Nov 22, 2020 7:16PM

Roar%20small
joined Dec 18, 2013

As just a crazy example off the top of my head, scenes of them sitting around at home having a friendly everyday conversation (you know, in the bed they actually share) would be quite commensurate with a series whose main focus is the other characters.

You mean like the conversation they just had a few chapters ago when discussing the situation with Sayaka?

joined Oct 21, 2020

Reading citrus and not caring about mei and yuzu is like watching madoka and not giving a shit about homura and her pink goddess

True, but yes that was me. I absolutely hated Homura and honestly didn’t give a shit about her. Madoka was Yuki Aoi being Yuki Aoi, didn’t really care for her either... Watched it for Sayaka and Kyoko. Main characters aren’t everything to a story, if it was it would be a very sad and lonely linear script.

There is such a thing as watching for the plot. People can watch a series just for the story without giving a shit about the characters. The focus of everyone is different. But it is possible to watch/read a series without giving a damn about the main characters simply because the main characters just don’t feel important to you to warrant your attention, if if they are the driving factor of the plot itself. It’s a bit ironic really, that you can’t separate the two, but I’m pretty sure we’ve all watched a series at one point where you only care about the universe or the music without any care for the characters. In the end we’re all biased and tilt to what we like...

last edited at Nov 23, 2020 2:57AM

joined Oct 21, 2020

After all, let’s be frank, in the end the side characters and pairings are always more interesting than the main couple.

Let’s be frank, in the end this is a completely specious generalization—sometimes they are, and very often they’re not.

Haha true it’s a generalisation, but at least to me, it has been true 90% of the time. After the first few chapters/volumes/episodes, the main cast just gets.... boring... for lack of a better word. You already know they’re gonna get together/have feelings for each other, it’s essentially a matter of time. During that phase, the side cast’s will they won’t day starts to pop out occasionally in the background, the more the interact with the Main cast the more they start to be fleshed out the more the draw away the attention from the main cast. While it’s not for every series, in my group of friends I’m not the only one who thinks that way.

Like others have said, I find Harumin (to say nothing of her almost invisible sister) to be profoundly uninteresting except as someone for Yuzu to talk to, and the domesticated version of Matsuri only slightly less so.

And as Lilliwyt says, the idea that the only options for Mei and Yuzu are artificial “drama” or this bizarre developmental regression where they appear to have lost about 5 years from the earliest chapters is quite preposterous. (I mean seriously—you’re engaged to be married and you’re still doing that “talking through the teddy bear” thing?)

As just a crazy example off the top of my head, scenes of them sitting around at home having a friendly everyday conversation (you know, in the bed they actually share) would be quite commensurate with a series whose main focus is the other characters.

Well the setting is... Japan... yep they’ve already gone further than just a normal peck, but Mei said they’ve decided to start all over with each other from scratch didn’t she. Not to mention it’s been two weeks since the outburst and engagement and MONTHS since they were living together. Mei’s an introvert, and extreme one on top of that, her life was school-home. But she’s also still just a very shy high school girl who doesn’t know how to act in front of people she cares about. On top of that she grew up in an environment where expressing feelings was a sign of weakness. She’s technically relearning that it is okay to express emotions

It might not make sense to westerners cuz of the culture differences, but this is quite normal... when you’ve done something drastic and caused a lot of trouble to those around you. They tell you it’s fine but you no longer know how to face them, unsure if you should start from scratch, or pick up where you left off, or just wait for the other party to make a move. And in the end you muddle in the dilemma for so long you just end up staying put until the other party comes over to drag you out of your shell.

Honestly I started out liking Mei a lot, but after a few chapters of their one step forward two steps back routine I got very sick of those two. Just around the same time, all the other side characters started to appear, Matsuri, Tachibana sisters, Nene etc...My attention became more focused on them after that.

But Yuzu and Mei are the main characters so even if you wanted to avoid them to they’re splashed all over the pages. So I continued on for the plot to see if they’d finally resolve their never ending drama at the same time finding my reprieve in the story from reading about how the side characters interact with each other.

joined Oct 21, 2020

Plus Harumin did confess to Yuzu, but chickened out and added ‘as a best friend’ at the end to not make it awkward. Yuzu had already fallen off her seat in shock at Harumin’s ‘confession’, so she changed it at the last moment

That's just a way to interpret it honestly and not the best one to be honest.You say that you have scruted every detail but where isthe backup on saying she chickened out ? Harumin has barely showing any romantics feelings toward Yuzu period, hell she has barely shown those feelings for anybody. Sorry but i can't buy the "Harumin was serious with her confession" thing without any real proof.

Ahhh right, this is probably a case of cultural differences. Just to note, every Japanese reader probably is of the same opinion that I have. Citrus+ vol1 March 30th part 2. This significance of this scene is most likely lost to the overseas readers. But for Harumin to go out of her way to may a detour in sending Yuzu to the train station in the opposite direction of her home, just for the excuse to go to a bookstore near the station and walk through a manga section which she has no interest in, simply so that she can report to Yuzu that the latest release of her favourite manga is out. In Japan, this has the same significance as going to the store where your crush works at just to ‘spend time with them’ by watching them work from afar.

This is the reason why Matsuri decided to trace Harumin’s steps and then called her out for ‘being too affectionate with Yuzu’. In the next page, Saburouta also cuts off half of Harumin’s face in a panel after she opens the umbrella. This is also rather significant because writers do not do not do that unless you do not want to show the character’s expression for a reason.

A 100% platonic friendship would be Harumin walking by a bookstore while she was on her way home. Or being on an errand to shop for groceries and remembering that Yuzu said she was looking for a specific book and dropping by because it is nearby.

Hey Lilliwyt, maybe do something about your spelling and language before lecturing me.

That's a dumb way to start an argument btw. I don't write that bad for you to not understand what i'm saying.Also English is not my native language and is not something i practise daily.

Create another drama that would threaten to tear them apart again?

Like having comfy and wholesome moments is not an option. It will have been a better change of pace rather than going for another round of dramas but on side characters.

Honestly, the side character cast has much room for expansion, especially Nene and Mitsuko. Heck even the new characters, Sayaka and Miyabi. How will their roles in the story affect Matsuri after Harumin and Yuzu graduate?

I couldn't care less about Nene and Mitsuko honestly. Nene is a joke character about the whole HaruYuzu ship and Mitsuko really ? She barely exist outside of her arc (which ironicaly was the same as Nene). Honestly, you're the first one i see caring Nene or Mitsuko. We clearly not on the same page here.

PS : Also you're speaking to someone who is not a huge fan of Harumin as a character so i might probably be biased but frankly not that much.

Nene IS a joke character, but she’s also in the plot for a reason. Whether she was meant to be a superficial joke character, or have a bigger significant role later in the story remains to be seen. Mitsuko would probably have a bigger appearance if there were to be a Harumin arc.

Being biased is fine. I’m biased too, so are most of the people here. Doesn’t matter if we’re not on the same page, I’m really just here to discuss the translation and translation mistakes of the latest uploaded scans mostly. But participating in a discussion like this isn’t too bad every once in a while. At the very least it is entertaining.

And it is obvious that you aren’t native in English. I don’t blame you if you don’t understand a lot of the significance of the conversations in the side character cast because TOO MUCH is lost in translation. Like how Matsuri only uses Keigo (Japanese polite speech) with Harumin, or how Harumin slangs some of her words intentionally to portray her ‘gyaru’ persona. Japanese is a difficult language to translate, it’s incredibly difficult to try to maintain the same tone and nuances after translating into English and a lot of the times it just comes out flat.

This is the reason why some readers say there ‘no chemistry between Harumin and Matsuri’ (granted their chemistry is closer to a live wire coming in contact with a conduit).

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

OK, Erogequeen, we get it—your readings are always right because of your superior understanding of Japanese language and your deep insight into the nuances of Japanese culture, and your freedom from the blinders that prevent we benighted Westerners from grasping the true significance of what we’re looking at.

I understand why condescension must be so unavoidable when redressing the ignorance of others,

19243370_189319978264256_7134889760776107126_o
joined Dec 26, 2014

Reading citrus and not caring about mei and yuzu is like watching madoka and not giving a shit about homura and her pink goddess

True, but yes that was me. I absolutely hated Homura and honestly didn’t give a shit about her. Madoka was Yuki Aoi being Yuki Aoi, didn’t really care for her either... Watched it for Sayaka and Kyoko. Main characters aren’t everything to a story, if it was it would be a very sad and lonely linear script.

There is such a thing as watching for the plot. People can watch a series just for the story without giving a shit about the characters. The focus of everyone is different. But it is possible to watch/read a series without giving a damn about the main characters simply because the main characters just don’t feel important to you to warrant your attention, if if they are the driving factor of the plot itself. It’s a bit ironic really, that you can’t separate the two, but I’m pretty sure we’ve all watched a series at one point where you only care about the universe or the music without any care for the characters. In the end we’re all biased and tilt to what we like...

And now I know you're just messing up with me.
Homura is and always will be the best character in anime history ( don't change my mind) and madoka was Aoi Yuki's one of her best voice works. ( Don't change my mind about that either)
I think you just like to be edgy or really you're just an idiot with an opinion about everything ( you wanna know more about Nene? The most insignificant character in citrus?? really???)

joined Feb 14, 2019

OK, Erogequeen, we get it—your readings are always right because of your superior understanding of Japanese language and your deep insight into the nuances of Japanese culture, and your freedom from the blinders that prevent we benighted Westerners from grasping the true significance of what we’re looking at.

I understand why condescension must be so unavoidable when redressing the ignorance of others,

Personally I'm looking forward to the reasoning as to how their cultural knowledge and familiarity with the plot is superior to Saburouta's when things don't go the way they want.

joined Feb 14, 2019

And now I know you're just messing up with me.
Homura is and always will be the best character in anime history ( don't change my mind) and madoka was Aoi Yuki's one of her best voice works. ( Don't change my mind about that either)
I think you just like to be edgy or really you're just an idiot with an opinion about everything ( you wanna know more about Nene? The most insignificant character in citrus?? really???)

Just remember that you are dealing with someone who thinks "Matsuri is the most mature character in the series" https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/posts/637415 , and what sort of person that would be.

Then it all makes sense (and doesn't seem worth arguing about).

last edited at Nov 23, 2020 4:23AM

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

Just to note, every Japanese reader probably is of the same opinion that I have.

Just how presumptuous can you get ? And seriously ? That's your proof, you can found easy arguments to why she've done it rather than jumping immediatly to "Harumin was in love with Yuzu" bandwagon. Just when and how Harumin would have fall in love ? Their relation were nothing but friendship but you never see Harumin acting more romantic toward Yuzu during the main series ever (beside your interpretation of the confession, which will make no sense because it will be out of nowhere). Like my interpretation at why Harumin is affectionate is because she feel guilty she couldn't help Yuzu during the main series abouther troubles with Mei.

Nene IS a joke character, but she’s also in the plot for a reason. Whether she was meant to be a superficial joke character, or have a bigger significant role later in the story remains to be seen.

The reason is already in the past because her arc is finish. I don't see Sabu reusing Nene as a plot device.

Mitsuko would probably have a bigger appearance if there were to be a Harumin arc.

No shit Sherlock

19243370_189319978264256_7134889760776107126_o
joined Dec 26, 2014

And now I know you're just messing up with me.
Homura is and always will be the best character in anime history ( don't change my mind) and madoka was Aoi Yuki's one of her best voice works. ( Don't change my mind about that either)
I think you just like to be edgy or really you're just an idiot with an opinion about everything ( you wanna know more about Nene? The most insignificant character in citrus?? really???)

Just remember that you are dealing with someone who thinks "Matsuri is the most mature character in the series" https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/posts/637415 , and what sort of person that would be.

Then it all makes sense (and doesn't seem worth arguing about).

Yes I've read all the nonsense they wrote

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

OK, Erogequeen, we get it—your readings are always right because of your superior understanding of Japanese language and your deep insight into the nuances of Japanese culture, and your freedom from the blinders that prevent we benighted Westerners from grasping the true significance of what we’re looking at.

I understand why condescension must be so unavoidable when redressing the ignorance of others,

Personally I'm looking forward to the reasoning as to how their cultural knowledge and familiarity with the plot is superior to Saburouta's when things don't go the way they want.

Right—Saburouta, in contrast to all the dozens if not hundreds of other manga we’ve read, is channeling the deeply ingrained essence of Japanese cultural identity.

Especially the part about stepsisters having lesbian relationships and getting gay-married.

joined Jan 17, 2020

HaruMatsu SAILS

Roar%20small
joined Dec 18, 2013

I mean, japanese culture and values have always been an important factor in the writing of citrus, that much is true. Mei's entire struggle in the original series was her commitment to be what was expected of her from society rather than what she wanted. Yuzu on the other hand served as her foil due to her complete disregard of those society expectations in favor of her own.

Calling Matsuri the most mature might be an exaggeration but she definitely has the most awareness out all the cast.

last edited at Nov 23, 2020 9:44AM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

I mean, japanese culture and values have always been an important factor in the writing of citrus, that much is true.

I doubt if there's a single conscious reader of Citrus who failed to get that from the first few chapters.

"Everyone in Japan agrees with me" needs to become the new Dynasty argument-clincher.

As in: "Everyone in Japan agrees with me that the side characters in Citrus are more interesting than the MC, except this one guy in southern Hokkaido, but he's always been kind of a prick, and more than half-Ainu anyway."

joined Jul 26, 2016

"It is a truth universally acknowledged that 84% of all statistics quoted on the Internets must be made up on the spot."

Roar%20small
joined Dec 18, 2013

Is not entirely wrong though.

The value dissonance at play when it comes to citrus is easily spotted when you look at what the different fandoms all over the world think about the series. American fandom is by far the most vitriolic since the notion of having to live according to old traditions is deemed as insane for most Americans. In contrast, Spanish-speaking fans are much more receptive to the premise since those countries exist similar traditions. And for what it's worth, looking for the series or the characters' names in Japanes on twitter shows generally positive opinions from Japanese accounts.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Is not entirely wrong though.

The value dissonance at play when it comes to citrus is easily spotted when you look at what the different fandoms all over the world think about the series. American fandom is by far the most vitriolic since the notion of having to live according to old traditions is deemed as insane for most Americans. In contrast, Spanish-speaking fans are much more receptive to the premise since those countries exist similar traditions. And for what it's worth, looking for the series or the characters' names in Japanes on twitter shows generally positive opinions from Japanese accounts.

What 'premise' are you referring to? Lesbian stepsisters? Or arranged marriages?

I certainly never had a problem with "traditional values" in the series. Lazy, unfocused writing and hand-waving problem-solving, yes. But traditional values, no.

Roar%20small
joined Dec 18, 2013

What 'premise' are you referring to? Lesbian stepsisters? Or arranged marriages?

Arranged Marriages

I certainly never had a problem with "traditional values" in the series. Lazy, unfocused writing and hand-waving problem-solving, yes. But traditional values, no.

Handwaving problem-solving was certainly an issue but a lot of the grievances the US fandom directly stem from a combination of both the looming "threat" of Mei's arranged marriage and her lack of initiative to do anything about it.

joined Jul 26, 2016

Handwaving problem-solving was certainly an issue but a lot of the grievances the US fandom directly stem from a combination of both the looming "threat" of Mei's arranged marriage and her lack of initiative to do anything about it.

Insofar memory serves the serious issue with that whole arc was how it kinda came out of nowhere, was handled clumsily to put it mildly, and finally resolved with what can be best described as "handwave conga line."

Not that the whole Suddenly Arranged Marriages thing being a dead-horse trope in the genre particularly helped ofc.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

What 'premise' are you referring to? Lesbian stepsisters? Or arranged marriages?

Arranged Marriages

I certainly never had a problem with "traditional values" in the series. Lazy, unfocused writing and hand-waving problem-solving, yes. But traditional values, no.

Handwaving problem-solving was certainly an issue but a lot of the grievances the US fandom directly stem from a combination of both the looming "threat" of Mei's arranged marriage and her lack of initiative to do anything about it.

There again, the problem with that for me was that the story had established that with Sensei McRapey gone, arranged marriage for Mei was off the table until Saburouta, clearly at a loss for what to do with the story after wandering around aimlessly in the middle Shirapon/festival, etc. chapters, pulled it out of her ass to set up the big (handwaving) finale.

Had that arranged-marriage development been prefigured even a bit methodically, or had Mei mentioned it to her supposed partner like a halfway rational human being, it would have been a different, and more coherent, story.

I of course cannot speak for "US fandom," only for myself.

But the nuances of Japanese culture in terms of inheritance, wealthy family expectations, etc. got extensive discussion here, and for all the problems people had with the execution of the storytelling, the gist of the opinions was not simply "those values suck."

The cultural specificity of the kind of families that live in houses with The Thing That Goes "Doink" (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheThingThatGoesDoink) is hardly news to anyone who reads very much manga--generational expectations, overbearing parents and grandparents, arranged marriages, etc. are among the hoariest of manga tropes.

EDIT: tl;dr: what random said.

last edited at Nov 23, 2020 11:15AM

19243370_189319978264256_7134889760776107126_o
joined Dec 26, 2014

As in: "Everyone in Japan agrees with me that the side characters in Citrus are more interesting than the MC, except this one guy in southern Hokkaido, but he's always been kind of a prick, and more than half-Ainu anyway."

LMAO

joined Dec 5, 2018

the cmt section of Citrus is even more dramatic than the manga LOL.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

the cmt section of Citrus is even more dramatic than the manga LOL.

Not an incredibly high bar these days, to be sure.

To reply you must either login or sign up.