I'm honestly really happy with this development. A lot of times in mangas (mostly yuri), whenever someone gets jealous that their friend/girlfriend are getting close with someone, the friend/girlfriend gets all mopey and feels bad about it, so they end up apologizing, followed by the jealous person apologizing for being jealous. This just has Chidori being rightfully pissed off at Nanoha for bring immature. It feels realistic, especially since they're teenagers, so I'm on board with this "drama"
Also, I really hope Mai gets a gf soon. She has a good heart being nice to Chidori, even though she loves Nanoha.

Exactly! I finally see a coherent comment. Couples fight all the time and almost always for nonsense, I also think that this is the first time that they fight, so it's normal to get carried away, surely this will help them improve their relationship, also for the issue of TRUST in each other.

This. So much this. I think a lot of people forget just how immature teenagers can be (and adults even still), especially when it comes to (relatively) new relationships which at times can bring out the immatureness in people.

last edited at Dec 17, 2019 7:07PM

I'm honestly really happy with this development. A lot of times in mangas (mostly yuri), whenever someone gets jealous that their friend/girlfriend are getting close with someone, the friend/girlfriend gets all mopey and feels bad about it, so they end up apologizing, followed by the jealous person apologizing for being jealous. This just has Chidori being rightfully pissed off at Nanoha for bring immature. It feels realistic, especially since they're teenagers, so I'm on board with this "drama"
Also, I really hope Mai gets a gf soon. She has a good heart being nice to Chidori, even though she loves Nanoha.

Exactly! I finally see a coherent comment. Couples fight all the time and almost always for nonsense, I also think that this is the first time that they fight, so it's normal to get carried away, surely this will help them improve their relationship, also for the issue of TRUST in each other.

This. So much this. I think a lot of people forget just how immature teenagers can be (and adults even still), especially when it comes to (relatively) new relationships which at times can bring out the immatureness in people.

When was the last time we had a comedy yuri with 2 characters being at least a bit mature ? It's not unrealistic, it's what happen in most comedy yuri, 2 peoples being immature about a situation instead of thinking about it. Again, how acting mature is that unrealistic for teenagers ? Just because you're 16/17 doesn't mean acting like 8yo brat is more realistic than acting mature.

When was the last time we had a comedy yuri with 2 characters being at least a bit mature ? It's not unrealistic, it's what happen in most comedy yuri, 2 peoples being immature about a situation instead of thinking about it. Again, how acting mature is that unrealistic for teenagers ? Just because you're 16/17 doesn't mean acting like 8yo brat is more realistic than acting mature.

Did you read any of the other comments?

When was the last time we had a comedy yuri with 2 characters being at least a bit mature ? It's not unrealistic, it's what happen in most comedy yuri, 2 peoples being immature about a situation instead of thinking about it. Again, how acting mature is that unrealistic for teenagers ? Just because you're 16/17 doesn't mean acting like 8yo brat is more realistic than acting mature.

Did you read any of the other comments?

My comment reflect my understanding of the comments so yes. I rarely comment when i don't read the other comments so if you think i'm in the wrong then that mean i misunderstand the comments.

My comment reflect my understanding of the comments so yes. I rarely comment when i don't read the other comments so if you think i'm in the wrong then that mean i misunderstand the comments.

I ask because

Again, how acting mature is that unrealistic for teenagers ?

has been answered in like twenty different ways.

My comment reflect my understanding of the comments so yes. I rarely comment when i don't read the other comments so if you think i'm in the wrong then that mean i misunderstand the comments.

I ask because

Again, how acting mature is that unrealistic for teenagers ?

has been answered in like twenty different ways.

The only thing i've seen in the last couples of pages is that they're immatures teenagers because they're teenagers (unless i've miss some messages which also a possibility) or did you refer to this :

It's unrealistic to expect it to happen immediately. People need time to cool their heads, which is part of what's happening here. People need to be able to get angry, and they need to be able to let it out. It's an emotion everyone feels. Expecting them to immediately suppress it and have a levelheaded conversation isn't practical. The way they're handling is immature, sure. But having them immediately talk it out wouldn't be very good writing.

In the end my point is : it is less realistic to think they could have done that the mature way or i'm just a boomer who don't understand teenagers ?

last edited at Dec 17, 2019 9:25PM

I don't really know if the issue is maturity. To me, this fight is refreshing because it's so patently ridiculous. It's not even based on a legitimate misunderstanding. Nanoha got a little jealous and then decided to act upset, and then Chidori actually got angry in response, and now neither of them is willing to talk to the other. It's impossible to take seriously.

There's another story, Yuunagi Marbled, where the main character isn't really mature, but she's open and honest with her feelings, so she defuses a lot of potential drama, even though the other girl is kind of a moody bitch (but we still love her).

In general, in dramatic stories the characters' arcs often come from them being forced to confront a part of themselves that they could not accept. When that plays out in a romance story, you get moments where the characters are incapable of communicating their desires or needs, not because they can't communicate but because they are refusing to acknowledge that they have those needs/desires. I think a lot of standard romance plots fall into that category. She tries to keep some distance from her partner because she's afraid to acknowledge that she truly needs another person. He pushes his partner away because he's afraid that anyone who knows his true self will come to hate him. Etc. When it works, the characters have issues we can understand and empathize with, and the drama is a natural result of these inner conflicts.

But I think sometimes the superficial elements of these arguments are copied over without a strong foundation in the characters' psychologies. Then they seem to come out of nowhere and the audience is left feeling like the characters are acting like immature children.

In the end my point is : it is less realistic to think they could have done that the mature way or i'm just a boomer who don't understand teenagers ?

You have a point, yes. but in the end how can they act all mature without having made any mistakes before? It's the first time that they are dating so I think it's very understandable.

last edited at Dec 17, 2019 10:07PM

Ah, how interesting—since only children ever get in stupid fights based on nothing, evidently the average age of Dynasty readers in these forums is about 7 years old.

You learn something new every day.

Ah, how interesting—since only children ever get in stupid fights based on nothing, evidently the average age of Dynasty readers in these forums is about 7 years old.

You learn something new every day.

I resemble that remark.

Ah, how interesting—since only children ever get in stupid fights based on nothing, evidently the average age of Dynasty readers in these forums is about 7 years old.

You learn something new every day.

Things sure have changed since the most recent Dynasty survey.
I was 20-ish years below the average age of a Dynasty reader then, now I'm 10-ish years above!

Ah, how interesting—since only children ever get in stupid fights based on nothing, evidently the average age of Dynasty readers in these forums is about 7 years old.

You learn something new every day.

Where did you get to that point ?

Ah, how interesting—since only children ever get in stupid fights based on nothing, evidently the average age of Dynasty readers in these forums is about 7 years old.

You learn something new every day.

Where did you get to that point ?

He obviously used his comment as a(n insulting) joke, just as I did my reply to said comment.

Ah, how interesting—since only children ever get in stupid fights based on nothing, evidently the average age of Dynasty readers in these forums is about 7 years old.

You learn something new every day.

Where did you get to that point ?

Let me spell it out for you:

It's preposterous to assert that serious arguments between people based on unstated silly or trivial resentments are a function of age or developmental maturity. Adults do this all the time, as demonstrated by many of the drawn-out, bitter arguments on the Dynasty forums about very trivial things. (To say nothing of being in a long-term relationship or in a large, contentious family.)

Such arguments are often described as the people being "immature," but while age can minimize such occurrences, it certainly doesn't eliminate them.

What wiki says about age and maturity...
Some tl;dr memes on the topic
and a full reddit expanding on it.
Here's a link explaining the psychology behind it, to learn and self-reflect on the matter.

...adults (or adolescents) acting immature is far from a rare occurance. Sometimes even grown people pout or throw a hissy-fit. Nothing to be proud of, but... sometimes it may even give one some (short-lived) sense of relief, just reacting without thinking things through properly. It happens to the best of us.

Nothing unrealistic about that.

(Expecting teens to act mature and to know how to properly communicate 100% of the time on the other hand.......)

last edited at Dec 18, 2019 2:11PM

And i'm one who get asked if i read comments.I never say that it's unrealistic to act childish, i ask if acting mature will have been less realistic.

(Expecting teens to act mature and to know how to properly communicate 100% of the time on the other hand.......)

And neither i excepting that but whatever it feel like my point have not been understand. Honestly i don't really care anymore, i don't ask for a lecture on maturity. Move on on the classic "it's embarassing to be naked in onsen".

Sometimes even grown people pout or throw a hissy-fit. Nothing to be proud of, but... sometimes it may even give one some (short-lived) sense of relief, just reacting without thinking things through properly.

This is a really good point--sometimes just thinking about not doing the adult thing is enough to give that bit of release that enables you to keep trudging along doing the adult thing, even though your inner child says you're more than justified in losing your shit at the one-millionth time some asshole co-worker does the annoying thing they've been told not to do 999,999 times before.

Okay, let me circle back...

I don't really like the "it's realistic" argument.

Since it seems that came up from you reading others claiming the kids behaviour was "realistic" in the ways of story-telling, this infers your opinion being this argument not being true, therefore (in short-hand) in your opinion "unrealistic".
(At least, that's how seemingly most of us understood it and reacted to it - me included, albeit, me personally, I was admitably rather peeved at you shoting at my fun-times with another commenter, within that same post. Mea culpa.)

how 2 peoples talking about something that upset them is unrealistic ?

You're right. It's not unrealistic that two people, no matter the age or situation, would talk things out. But it's also not unrealistic that they wouldn't.
However, there's a reason, that I keep preaching to literally everyone around me that "communication is key" - because, silly as it is, a helluva lot of the times people don't do the rational and 'mature' thing / step outside their own perspective and perception and try to figure things out, rationally. It's - at least in my experience - rather realistic that two people do not talk about something that upsets them.

When was the last time we had a comedy yuri with 2 characters being at least a bit mature ?

A bit mature? Quite often. But immature behaviour will lead to more plot-shennanigans. Especially in SOL. It happens so there's a story - not exclusively, of cos. It does remind me, however, of the question as of why the protagonist of a super-hero story always ends up in the center of events - because if that wasn't the case, then we wouldn't have their tale. Some light-hearted conflict, especially one caused by behaviour the audience can chuckle at (no matter how un- or realistic it is) - can be a very good source of comedy, or at the very least lead to character-development without producing heavy-drama.

So far Kovachi steered away from Nanoha and Chidori getting into an actual fight (a sole shin-kicking and some awkward tension notwithstanding). Learning how to recover from things blowing up / getting heated, even if it's for no good reason - or especially when it was for no good reason - is something adolescents must learn as well, and in a partnership it's its own skill to master; as in a relationship we tend to assume the other will surely know what we mean/think/need, that they will "get us", even if we rationally know mind-reading is not a thing, not even between lovey-dovey all-over-each-other couples. Kovachi wants to show us this particular learning curve - so something needed to happen to trigger it - something that wouldn't harm their relationship in the long-run, so something silly, something immature. So they can learn to be more mature about things like that in the future... (Feel free to check out the 4th link I posted earlier - maturity is not not a thing that comes on its own, we learn it, and have to constantly re-learn / remind ourselves us of it...)

Again, how acting mature is that unrealistic for teenagers ?

...have you met a teenager? If you want a super-mature teenager (or "normally mature teenager", however that would be defined o.O ) in your manga, you might want to look somewhere else (usually more drama/angst/trauma heavy stories; because that's where these characters would most likely benefit the story being told).

it is less realistic to think they could have done that the mature way [...]

In theory, no. But hammering home a point that has nothing to do with an entertaining story being told, will not make people agree with you.
In practice, yes. Because all of the above.

last edited at Dec 18, 2019 3:31PM

And i'm one who get asked if i read comments.I never say that it's unrealistic to act childish, i ask if acting mature will have been less realistic.

The confusing part to me is that your complaint seems to be predicated on the idea that they're not going to talk to each other. Of course they're going to communicate and talk through their problems. They're just being stubborn and taking their sweet time about it. It's their first relationship; they're not equipped with the knowledge of how to deal with fights with their significant other (see: Nanoha in Ch 69, thinking about how she screwed up and she didn't expect it to turn out this way). In that sense, yes, it would be less realistic to immediately solve it, because neither of them have experienced fighting with their partner prior to this.

I think this is one of the many situations in life where you have to get it wrong before you can get it right.

You're right. It's not unrealistic that two people, no matter the age or situation, would talk things out. But it's also not unrealistic that they wouldn't.

You could have write this and we will have been gucchi.That's basically my point, maybe i wasnt just clear enough to make it understand. Never said i wanted them to be mature, i just said they could have act mature and not really be that unrealistic either.

Can we change the subject ? Don't even know why i try to argument when i'm bad at argumentation.

last edited at Dec 18, 2019 3:37PM

XD See? We all had a silly misunderstanding and it blew out of proportions.
But eventually we talked it out, made our points clear and hopefully we all learned something :)

(Note to self: Read comments more properly before responding to a particular point, in case another point made your perception biased.)

last edited at Dec 18, 2019 3:38PM

@KueKyuuQ^

I've paid big money to professional therapists to be told (both literally and in essence) "no one is a mind reader." And before that it had seemed really important that the other person should know X without being told, if they really cared about the relationship, and me having to tell them just meant . . . yadda yadda yadda.

Except, oh, yeah, no one is a mind reader, are they?

And no one starts out knowing that the first fight doesn't mean that the whole relationship is doomed (or already over)--it just feels that way.

KueKyuuQ posted:

It does remind me, however, of the question as of why the protagonist of a super-hero story always ends up in the center of events - because if that wasn't the case, then we wouldn't have their tale.

Idk about others, but at least I, fully understand it. Things need to happen for the story to be interesting. Irl hero isn't always in center of attention, but if he happens to be, then it makes for a much more interesting story to hear about. In fiction you have full control over narrative, so the story you're telling is always the one where hero "happened" to be always center of attention. Either way, I'm not talking about this specific example, because I think their argument is actually fully understandable and more nuanced than most people give it credit, so I don't mind it that much. But I can't help but sympathize with people like Lilywyt. Having main characters act immature and argue about pointless stuff, makes for more interesting (even if often more infuriating for readers aware of truth) read by default and feels like no brainier, if you're trying to write a engaging story. That's exactly why every so often I crave for author to take more interesting route and have characters not do that and actually have a open, level-headed discussion about their issues. Just because characters talk about it, it doesn't mean author can't still make it interesting and have things happening thanks to that. Talking about something, doesn't need to automatically solve the issue. Even if being immature is more realistic or common or whatever, it's still fiction. You can make characters do whatever you want. Again, I'm sure there's plenty of works that do just that, but from my experienced they're way less common.

@Blastaar
Realizing others can't read one's mind, is just one half of it... IMO, realizing that everybody lives within their own reality, their very own universe of emotions, experiences and perception is equally as important.
Learning that others can't read one's mind is just as important as acknowledging that one can't read theirs.
That sometimes, it's unfathomable to person A that a thing is upsetting to person B. And, yeah, how would they know, unless they are told - and even if they are told, they might know, but still not understand...

That doesn't mean we should blindly accept or bend ourselves to others' views or their attitudes towards (or against) our own. But maybe we can respect that fact. Just being aware of it, may make one's life quite a lot easier... (and in any case or degree, help us reach the appropriate conclusions / consequences.)

@Nevri
...you somehow just reminded me of this golden bit XD

KueKyuuQ posted:

...you somehow just reminded me of this golden bit XD

This is... brilliant xD Now I need someone writing just that x3