Personally, I think the large cast would be fine if they stopped to flesh them out. I mean, we liked Hayate and crew because the plot spent a lot of time establishing their personalities, their motivations, what they stand to lose and gain in their arcs. All of these characters are just there to fill space and explain to the audience how Vivid's fights work. I mean, Hero Aca has a huge cast, but they all work in service to the story, they aren't just Midoriya's hype squad.

(Personal gripe: Every time I see a tie in a fight like this all I can see is "the author didn't want to commit to a decision here." And there are a lot of ties in Vivid.)

Sure, it can work if the writing is good enough. Strikers had lots of superfluous characters with their own little stories running around with most of them poorly fleshed out, and the same is even more true here. Heck, even A's managed to cut some extras in the superior movie version, which decided to focus on the most important things, namely Hayate's relationship to Wolkenritter and her relationship to Nanoha and Fate. And good things too, all the new scenes between those characters were so much better than any scenes with the axed catgirls.

I think my main problem with Vivid is the lack of stakes. It needs a Precia, or a Jail; or a rogue Defensive Program to actually put the protagonists in danger.

Vivid is more a sports series than a magical Military SF; which makes it feel divorced from the things we liked about Nanoha.

Also, it should absolutely slow down and flesh out team Takamachi. Before introducing hundreds more characters.

Well the problem with a legit threat is that it'd beg the question: "Why isn't Nanoha the one tackling this issue?" I think they had the right idea when Einhart was first introduced. Ein had a legit emotional problem only Vivio could solve, mostly through combat. The stakes were there, namely Einhart's happiness, but I feel like the show has sidelined what should really have been their second main character. The entire thrust of Vivid was the redemption of Einhart, just like Nanoha rescued Fate; why they wouldn't follow such a proven forumla with such a great counterpart to Vivio is kind of baffling, because on her own Vivio isn't changing or growing as a character.

(I guess you could argue she's growing, but only in regards to combat ability, which isn't exactly a story as much as grinding xp would be in an RPG.)

last edited at Apr 25, 2019 7:36PM

They sidelined Einhart and gave her a fangirl to hang out with instead. If I wasn't disappointed before that point, I was certainly disappointed after that chapter. There was a pretty funny credits page after that saying Vivio x Einhart was dead after that

So I haven't been keeping up with this since I kind of fell off the wagon back around the twenties chapter wise, but accidentally clicked the link for the most recent one (98) and read it because of course I didn't expect to be seeing Nanoha there. But anyway, my comment is actually about how hilarious that credit page edit is.

So Vivio wins on a technicality, and if Nanoha had literally just stood up, walked over and PUSHED Vivio over, she'd have won.

0___o

Really?

Yeah, not a fan of Vivio winning.

OMG! They all have the same face!

drhelsing posted:

OMG! They all have the same face!

Took you long enough!

I will never accept the outcome of this match, as I don't see how someone who can't even maintain their barrier jacket is able to stand, but someone who has still has vastly more energy remaining isn't able to even move. Anyway all that's left is for Einhart to take over he last few chapters to get resolution to her arc that she should have already gotten with her fight against Vivio.

drhelsing posted:

OMG! They all have the same face!

Took you long enough!

Knew it all along but it was extra-obvious when they all cheered for vivio

last edited at May 20, 2019 11:28PM

That was so dumb, in no way Vivio would have been able to stand up, she had no more energy and no defense jacket, even though she didnt took Nanohas full attack, it was enough to wear off her transformation, I know that she is the main character in this story but still, that was total bs.

last edited at May 20, 2019 10:51PM

Well that was fucking stupid. Are they trying to just go with the dumbest possible conclusion or did they inexplicably think this was actually a good ending to the match?

Alice Cheshire posted:

Well that was fucking stupid. Are they trying to just go with the dumbest possible conclusion or did they inexplicably think this was actually a good ending to the match?

subverting expectations

Well that was fucking stupid. Are they trying to just go with the dumbest possible conclusion or did they inexplicably think this was actually a good ending to the match?

I have to assume that the manga was being axed because everyone stopped giving a shit after the Vivio vs Einhart match which resolved Einhart's character arc fully, as signaled by her massive change in personality with the arrival of Yumina (who is a connection made that had nothing to do with her ancient memories but was purely her own). Afterwards it was dozens of chapters of absolutely nothing of importance. The only relevant thing that happened was the chapter where Vivio is told that she could get killed because of how retarded her fighting style is, something that comes up during this match where Nanoha would have literally killed her if Vivio didn't dodge. Its all rushed nonsense after all those chapters of nothing.

Its all made worse by Vivd Strike, where Vivio is supposedly much stronger than she was in this match, but you don't get the sense that she could ever win against Nanoha in a fight, when she could barely win against someone whose talent is being slightly more agile and able to punch harder than normal people. Vivio wouldn't even be able to take on Seig if she were even halfway serious, but she's really strong because the writer says she is.

last edited at May 20, 2019 11:15PM

They could have done the good logical ending and Nanoha winning but Nooooooope! let Vivio win by the power of friendship! when did this become Saint Seiya?or my little Pony?
If they are so much into fanservice I want bigger doses of NanoFate right now

Of all the ways this battle could have ended, this has to be at the bottom of the list. Imagine one of the strongest and most resilient mages we've been watching/reading about forever being "beaten" by her adolescent daughter because she couldn't stand up.

wut

last edited at May 21, 2019 12:17AM

Yeah having Nanoha lose like this was such a stupid idea I was with this manga for a long time but this has turned me off from even caring about it anymore. I understand she is the MC in this but you don't need the MC to win to make the story good looks like the author does not understand this.

The whole, "Let's call out to her and wake her up!" made me cringe a mile away. I said in my head, please, please don't let it happen this way...

...then she WINS?! WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

Out cold would have been way believable. That shit was just unbelievable. This is the most "feel good" manga I've read that feels soooo bad, knowing how the series used to be.

I knew about the outcome beforehand, I even let myself think that perhaps the manga could somehow justify it even a little, but it seems I was bound to be disappointed even with low expectations. I feel the way Sayaka there in my avatar looks.

It is pretty safe to say that Nanoha as a franchise peaked way back in A's. Strikers still had some good qualities to it, sure it was very messy but it still had a good core deep down. Vivid though, I struggle to praise in any meaningful way. It is built on fanservice (not very good one mind) and an uninteresting premise. And as someone above said, after they were done with Einhart in the story they had nothing left. Too bad too, another series filed under "what could have been great".

Seriously...? can't even facepalm at the ludicrousity of it all

I knew about the outcome beforehand, I even let myself think that perhaps the manga could somehow justify it even a little, but it seems I was bound to be disappointed even with low expectations.

I feel the same way, now I understand the fight better with the complete translations but it is still dumb. At least it was funny to see that the forum's reaction was exactly what I expected.

It is more and more like Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha Hajime no Ippo now

RivalRedRogue posted:

They sidelined Einhart and gave her a fangirl to hang out with instead. If I wasn't disappointed before that point, I was certainly disappointed after that chapter. There was a pretty funny credits page after that saying Vivio x Einhart was dead after that

This... Is what hurt me the most, my enjoyment went down a loooooot after this and I can't believe that the writer didn't saw that coming giving how successful it was in the previous series and in early chapters, like, would you like if Nanoha finds a new "partner" and Fate goes away smiling :))))))))? because no one is ever mad in this world, it's certainly disturbing, even creepy... You feel something is wrong with everyone. So I guess I like vivid Striker more because the characters are more real, and they cry for reasons beyond "I wanted to win that match against my friend T-T"

On this new chapter my favorite part is page 17 where Einhart is thinking stuff and completely ignoring the other girl lo/

Well, I guess they can always cover the lack of story with cheap fanservice instead!