Oh boy, this chapter really segmented the warped morality this manga is operating under for me.

Your comment was posted before I finished typing mine so I'm slightly editing.

You bring up a lot of good points that I missed about the apology. I'm still happy with what was shown in this chapter, but I agree it hasn't addressed everything and possibly never will. I think I also didn't blink about the flaws because I'm so used to this sort of brushing aside wrongs and characters saying stuff like "oh it's ok we should've known this so we were the ones that were wrong!" in Japanese media that I just sigh and move on because my expectations on how well they handle these types of issues are on the floor.

Don't get me wrong, I see it as a positive that an apology happened at all, but it was so limp-wristed it barely counts as one. The fact that Hina was the one that had to use her favor to get Shiho to talk to Yori at all, is worse enough, but what I missed to comment the first time is that the motivation for Shiho is still self-serving: She wants Hina to keep being her manager. So this apology is not happening for Yori's sake, or god forbid a feeling of regret, but simply to get something out of it.

It is kinda amazing that Shiho is such a consistently written thoroughly selfish character without the story noticing it. Like, for Shiho to be written that way at every opportunity, the author has to know what she is doing, right? But then why is that never brought up within the story? That contrast is simply baffling. It has been stated here since the beginning of this arc that Shiho does not feel that she fits with the rest of the characters, and that feeling only got stronger over time. These interactions are like Heather Chandler getting isekaied into the Carebears universe.

So while I still enjoy this manga, albeit for other reasons than the author intended propably, I don't have high hopes for the quality ticking up again. For me, I would want to see real growth from Shiho after all this time we spent with her. That would mean Aki not being romatically interested in her, and Shiho accepting this and keep being friends with her. Given that Aki asked her out on a date, I highly doubt it is gonna go this route, unless Shiho's shittyness is contagious and Aki is deliberately messing with her. And as highly cathartic as that would be, it would ruin Aki's character even more.

Aki what youre doing
Dont mess with shiho heart again...

But that bit Yori dropped...is veeerrry interesting.

Yeah I'm thinking the girls will collaborate together musically, or she'll be called on to help with Aki. Really interested in seeing what new forms the groups take now. I feel like they'll mix in some unexpected ways (depending on how much more we have left).

Aki what you're doing. Dont mess with shiho heart again...

She didn't really mess with Shiho's heart before, at least not intentionally. Here though, Aki and Shiho just need to figure their feelings out. They haven't had an actual discussion since the event and her asking for a date is a good hint that she's taking both of their feelings seriously. Last chapter she wondered what "that was all about." Of course Aki's, blushing face implied that she knows the answer (and likes the answer) but is in a bit of denial or wants certain clarification before she's honest with her feelings. She just needs to talk with Shiho and I imagine that's what they'll do on their date. They both just seem to have the jitters and awkwardness that can come with the moving from friendship to romance. What does a romantic relationship between them look like? They're both asking that question.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 7:44AM

i can't believe shiho was introduced in volume 3 and we're only now, 6 volumes later, getting a really weak conclusion to her "arc" and nothing has significantly changed about her character. everything up through her apology has all been completely self-serving, which in and of itself can be interesting, but it was handled so poorly here that it ends up being frustrating. obviously she's a teenager and that's just how some kids are but the fact that everyone else puts up with her to the degree they do is not believable in the slightest. and it wouldn't be so bad if there was a healthy dose of other stuff going on and there was more of a balance of plot points and character arcs but everything has revolved around shiho for 6 volumes straight and she's just a black hole of misery the whole time. and yes i am a hater by nature and i will continue to criticize this series because i loved it so much in the beginning and it drives me crazy seeing its continued self-drestruction.

Ok but seriously though,

I didn't expect Shiho to bring such a large bento everyday what, that was a funny detail.

Most of you guys are arguing and here i am just enjoying the manga peacefully

I guess “Shiho gets what she wants without doing anything to deserve it” is a kind of character development.

Some people really went from complaining about Shiho not apologizing (even going as far as to claim that she wouldn't do it) to complaining about the way she apologized.

I guess “Shiho gets what she wants without doing anything to deserve it” is a kind of character development.

Except not everything works that way. Especially not love.

Most of you guys are arguing and here i am just enjoying the manga peacefully

That's the best way.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 9:32AM

Himari, also a manager for Shiho's love life. :D

Some people really went from complaining about Shiho not apologizing (even going as far as to claim that she wouldn't do it) to complaining about the way she apologized.

erm... yes, of course? If someone who wronged you says to you "i guess i am sorry" in a sarcastic tone and spits afterwards, do you really accept that as a sincere apology?

Shiho's apology was self-serving. The conversation only happened because Hina spent her favor on it (given that the favor could have been used to gain ressources or time, Hina essentially had to "pay" Shiho to even talk to Yoru), it happened not because she felt bad for causing Yoru grief, but because she had "no reason to hate her anymore" - i. e. got what she wanted - and it had an ulterior motive, she wanted to keep Hina as a manager.

The only way this apology could have been worse is if Yoru acted all cold and bitchy during it. And though I personally don't believe in it, this could be interpreted as been on purpose to manipulate Yoru.

All in all, that weakass apology leaves much to be desired. In a better story, this would be actually a great move, showing that Shiho did not change, even if she is no longer directly combative, at least on the surface, and foreshadow a big fallout later. Here, it just is business as usual, which is amusing in its own way.

I guess “Shiho gets what she wants without doing anything to deserve it” is a kind of character development.

Except not everything works that way. Especially not love.

Indeed. “Good things happen to shitty people for no good reason” is the ultimate in realism.

Most of you guys are arguing and here i am just enjoying the manga peacefully

That's the best way.

Well, I am still enjoying the manga, albeit for different reasons, and I have not punched anybody in the face over it either, so I guess peacefully enjoying is applicable to me to. Depends on your definition of peaceful, i guess.

Himari, also a manager for Shiho's love life. :D

Lol You joke but the way Himari manages her friends, her calm, friendly attitude and her ability to plan and execute compromises makes her deciding to manage the band feel relatively natural for her. She's definitely gotten some experience managing personalities and relationships. Most importantly she always seems to enjoy it, especially when her plans work out. Setting up this meeting is just another example.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 10:11AM

erm... yes, of course? If someone who wronged you says to you "i guess i am sorry" in a sarcastic tone and spits afterwards, do you really accept that as a sincere apology?

Shiho's apology was self-serving. The conversation only happened because Hina spent her favor on it (given that the favor could have been used to gain ressources or time, Hina essentially had to "pay" Shiho to even talk to Yoru), it happened not because she felt bad for causing Yoru grief, but because she had "no reason to hate her anymore" - i. e. got what she wanted - and it had an ulterior motive, she wanted to keep Hina as a manager.

The apology was totally in character, which in my opinion is the most important thing. And she does feel bad about the way she mistreated Yori all this time for selfish reasons...

erm... yes, of course? If someone who wronged you says to you "i guess i am sorry" in a sarcastic tone and spits afterwards, do you really accept that as a sincere apology?

Shiho's apology was self-serving. The conversation only happened because Hina spent her favor on it (given that the favor could have been used to gain ressources or time, Hina essentially had to "pay" Shiho to even talk to Yoru), it happened not because she felt bad for causing Yoru grief, but because she had "no reason to hate her anymore" - i. e. got what she wanted - and it had an ulterior motive, she wanted to keep Hina as a manager.

The apology was totally in character, which in my opinion is the most important thing. And she does feel bad about the way she mistreated Yori all this time for selfish reasons...

Hey, I totally agree that the apology was in character, that is the problem. Once again it comes back to the way Shiho is treated by the story vs. the way she actually is in the story. Here it is treated by story and characters like the situation is resolved and Shiho is forgiven, when the apology was not even genuine. The story says Shiho has changed, but shows us that she actually has not.

Where did you read that Shiho actually feels bad for Yori? I did not get that, her line that there is not really a reason to hate her anymore makes me assume the opposite, actually. What specific details are you basing that on? I'm curious.

Some people really went from complaining about Shiho not apologizing (even going as far as to claim that she wouldn't do it) to complaining about the way she apologized.

Yup, mainly because the person i wanted Shiho to apologize to the most was Aki, not Yori, and that still has not happened, although id love for that to change

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 11:06AM

Where did you read that Shiho actually feels bad for Yori? I did not get that, her line that there is not really a reason to hate her anymore makes me assume the opposite, actually.

In fact, in the strict sense of the term there was never a “reason” for Shiho to hate Yori in the first place. Yori was unaware of Aki’s feelings for Yori, and Aki was unaware of Shiho’s feelings for her, making for an incredibly weak foundation for the ensuing cathedral of angst.

friendly remind that people don't just change their personality and baggage in just several day. Especialy an angsty teen with socialy arkwardness and sturborn personality. Sometime they need a push and a reason to take action, and you have friends for that reason, they can make you a better person but it'll take time. And people can be generous enough to forgive her for such trivial troubles, they just had an angsty highschool drama. It's nothing serious to hold grudged to, smh. When you give someone another chance, it can be the chance for that person to actualy change for the better.

Where did you read that Shiho actually feels bad for Yori? I did not get that, her line that there is not really a reason to hate her anymore makes me assume the opposite, actually.

In fact, in the strict sense of the term there was never a “reason” for Shiho to hate Yori in the first place. Yori was unaware of Aki’s feelings for Yori, and Aki was unaware of Shiho’s feelings for her, making for an incredibly weak foundation for the ensuing cathedral of angst.

I know, and we have said as much in the comments since day one. That Shiho said "as things are now, there is no real reason to resent her" (so she still thinks her hate was justified back when Aki did not reprociate her feelings) shows she is still as shitty as before. So all this time and focus and her character moved forward about two centimeters.

But hey, we very likely will get a new couple out of this, and that is all that counts, right...?

Indeed. “Good things happen to shitty people for no good reason” is the ultimate in realism.

And honestly, we should be grateful for that. Living in a meritocracy sounds great on paper, but life needs its share of injustice and randomness.

Where did you read that Shiho actually feels bad for Yori? I did not get that, her line that there is not really a reason to hate her anymore makes me assume the opposite, actually. What specific details are you basing that on? I'm curious.

Her apologetic look on page 16.

I’ll comment on this since you’ve repeated it a few times and I'm a bit confused by it, so maybe you could clarify.

That Shiho said "As things are now, there is no real reason to resent her" (so she still thinks her hate was justified back when Aki did not reciprocate her feelings) shows she is still as shitty as before.

In the full quote you're cutting off she says “As far as she’s (Yori's) concerned, it was more me venting my frustrations (out on her), than anything, the way things are now, there’s no reason to resent her." What she actually says to Himari is not a statement justifying her behavior. This is a statement acknowledging that, in the end, Yori did nothing wrong and it was only Shiho deflecting from her issues with Aki. Shiho is the one doing the action in that sentence, grammatically. She is assigning herself blame and agency. That whole brief scene before the meet-up with Yori was Shiho recognizing and feeling guilty for how she treated Yori, obviously in her own way.

In fact, that recognized culpability is the reason she agrees to Himari’s request at all. It’s only after she verbally reacts and reacts through facial expressions, in a way clearly expressing regret, that she then agrees to have the uncomfortable conversation with Yori. She didn’t just flippantly agree to the meeting, as you've suggested previously. She clearly thought about it, as Himari laid out the request.

Then in the meeting, Shiho says " I’m sorry. To be honest with you, I got wrapped up in my own selfish emotions, I’ll try not to act weirdly towards you from now on.” Here, again she continues the trend of acknowledging her behavior towards Yori. There's nothing in the scene that hints at insincerity, actually the opposite. Her facial expressions are typical manga-visual-language often used to communicate regret, sincerity and remorse.

Whatever your opinion of Shiho, I’m not sure how you could read those scenes and come away believing she thinks she did nothing wrong, has no regrets, didn't mean it, or only agreed to meet Yori because she was asked and nothing more. Without being asked she might have avoided the conversation because she has an avoidant personality, but that doesn't mean she's not sincere here.

Lastly, the "unknowingly the cause of all this" thing was obviously a tongue-in-cheek joke and played as such. She is the "cause" but not the culprit.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 4:16PM

Indeed. “Good things happen to shitty people for no good reason” is the ultimate in realism.

And honestly, we should be grateful for that. Living in a meritocracy sounds great on paper, but life needs its share of injustice and randomness.

It's no surprise that a defense of the writing in this particular manga would lead to paens to an unjust universe.

At this point some o' y'all are just moving goalposts. Like, I get it, you hate Shiho and nothing she can do or say will ever satisfy you unless she straight-up turns into a completely different character. And that's your prerogative.

But don't act like she's still behaving like she did back when she was introduced or pretend her acknowledging her bitchy behavior (which really, in the end, is just what it was, nothing more) and apologizing didn't happen just because you disagree with her existence period.

Because clearly, your "objective literary analysis" is more tinged by personal views than y'all think it is and at this point it really shows.

At this point some o' y'all are just moving goalposts. Like, I get it, you hate Shiho and nothing she can do or say will ever satisfy you unless she straight-up turns into a completely different character. And that's your prerogative.

But don't act like she's still behaving like she did back when she was introduced or pretend her acknowledging her bitchy behavior (which really, in the end, is just what it was, nothing more) and apologizing didn't happen just because you disagree with her existence period.

Because clearly, your "objective literary analysis" is more tinged by personal views than y'all think it is and at this point it really shows.

Once again, for many of us the issue is not "liking or not liking Shiho" as an imaginary person--it's the quality of the writing, and what the author's conception of the character has done to the overall series. Shiho's actions and her motivation (which, as you rightly say, amounts to nothing more than "bitchy behavior by a un-self-aware bitchy person") simply are not commensurate with the amount of narrative time and attention she has been given. There's been very little mystery or complexity about her character--just a long, drawn-out process by which the other characters belatedly come to realize what has been obvious to readers all along. (In fact, Yori still has no clue to what the whole mess was about.)

That "you just hate Shiho" gambit is long past its expiration date.