I guess “Shiho gets what she wants without doing anything to deserve it” is a kind of character development.

Some people really went from complaining about Shiho not apologizing (even going as far as to claim that she wouldn't do it) to complaining about the way she apologized.

I guess “Shiho gets what she wants without doing anything to deserve it” is a kind of character development.

Except not everything works that way. Especially not love.

Most of you guys are arguing and here i am just enjoying the manga peacefully

That's the best way.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 9:32AM

Himari, also a manager for Shiho's love life. :D

Some people really went from complaining about Shiho not apologizing (even going as far as to claim that she wouldn't do it) to complaining about the way she apologized.

erm... yes, of course? If someone who wronged you says to you "i guess i am sorry" in a sarcastic tone and spits afterwards, do you really accept that as a sincere apology?

Shiho's apology was self-serving. The conversation only happened because Hina spent her favor on it (given that the favor could have been used to gain ressources or time, Hina essentially had to "pay" Shiho to even talk to Yoru), it happened not because she felt bad for causing Yoru grief, but because she had "no reason to hate her anymore" - i. e. got what she wanted - and it had an ulterior motive, she wanted to keep Hina as a manager.

The only way this apology could have been worse is if Yoru acted all cold and bitchy during it. And though I personally don't believe in it, this could be interpreted as been on purpose to manipulate Yoru.

All in all, that weakass apology leaves much to be desired. In a better story, this would be actually a great move, showing that Shiho did not change, even if she is no longer directly combative, at least on the surface, and foreshadow a big fallout later. Here, it just is business as usual, which is amusing in its own way.

I guess “Shiho gets what she wants without doing anything to deserve it” is a kind of character development.

Except not everything works that way. Especially not love.

Indeed. “Good things happen to shitty people for no good reason” is the ultimate in realism.

Most of you guys are arguing and here i am just enjoying the manga peacefully

That's the best way.

Well, I am still enjoying the manga, albeit for different reasons, and I have not punched anybody in the face over it either, so I guess peacefully enjoying is applicable to me to. Depends on your definition of peaceful, i guess.

Himari, also a manager for Shiho's love life. :D

Lol You joke but the way Himari manages her friends, her calm, friendly attitude and her ability to plan and execute compromises makes her deciding to manage the band feel relatively natural for her. She's definitely gotten some experience managing personalities and relationships. Most importantly she always seems to enjoy it, especially when her plans work out. Setting up this meeting is just another example.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 10:11AM

erm... yes, of course? If someone who wronged you says to you "i guess i am sorry" in a sarcastic tone and spits afterwards, do you really accept that as a sincere apology?

Shiho's apology was self-serving. The conversation only happened because Hina spent her favor on it (given that the favor could have been used to gain ressources or time, Hina essentially had to "pay" Shiho to even talk to Yoru), it happened not because she felt bad for causing Yoru grief, but because she had "no reason to hate her anymore" - i. e. got what she wanted - and it had an ulterior motive, she wanted to keep Hina as a manager.

The apology was totally in character, which in my opinion is the most important thing. And she does feel bad about the way she mistreated Yori all this time for selfish reasons...

erm... yes, of course? If someone who wronged you says to you "i guess i am sorry" in a sarcastic tone and spits afterwards, do you really accept that as a sincere apology?

Shiho's apology was self-serving. The conversation only happened because Hina spent her favor on it (given that the favor could have been used to gain ressources or time, Hina essentially had to "pay" Shiho to even talk to Yoru), it happened not because she felt bad for causing Yoru grief, but because she had "no reason to hate her anymore" - i. e. got what she wanted - and it had an ulterior motive, she wanted to keep Hina as a manager.

The apology was totally in character, which in my opinion is the most important thing. And she does feel bad about the way she mistreated Yori all this time for selfish reasons...

Hey, I totally agree that the apology was in character, that is the problem. Once again it comes back to the way Shiho is treated by the story vs. the way she actually is in the story. Here it is treated by story and characters like the situation is resolved and Shiho is forgiven, when the apology was not even genuine. The story says Shiho has changed, but shows us that she actually has not.

Where did you read that Shiho actually feels bad for Yori? I did not get that, her line that there is not really a reason to hate her anymore makes me assume the opposite, actually. What specific details are you basing that on? I'm curious.

Some people really went from complaining about Shiho not apologizing (even going as far as to claim that she wouldn't do it) to complaining about the way she apologized.

Yup, mainly because the person i wanted Shiho to apologize to the most was Aki, not Yori, and that still has not happened, although id love for that to change

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 11:06AM

Where did you read that Shiho actually feels bad for Yori? I did not get that, her line that there is not really a reason to hate her anymore makes me assume the opposite, actually.

In fact, in the strict sense of the term there was never a “reason” for Shiho to hate Yori in the first place. Yori was unaware of Aki’s feelings for Yori, and Aki was unaware of Shiho’s feelings for her, making for an incredibly weak foundation for the ensuing cathedral of angst.

friendly remind that people don't just change their personality and baggage in just several day. Especialy an angsty teen with socialy arkwardness and sturborn personality. Sometime they need a push and a reason to take action, and you have friends for that reason, they can make you a better person but it'll take time. And people can be generous enough to forgive her for such trivial troubles, they just had an angsty highschool drama. It's nothing serious to hold grudged to, smh. When you give someone another chance, it can be the chance for that person to actualy change for the better.

Where did you read that Shiho actually feels bad for Yori? I did not get that, her line that there is not really a reason to hate her anymore makes me assume the opposite, actually.

In fact, in the strict sense of the term there was never a “reason” for Shiho to hate Yori in the first place. Yori was unaware of Aki’s feelings for Yori, and Aki was unaware of Shiho’s feelings for her, making for an incredibly weak foundation for the ensuing cathedral of angst.

I know, and we have said as much in the comments since day one. That Shiho said "as things are now, there is no real reason to resent her" (so she still thinks her hate was justified back when Aki did not reprociate her feelings) shows she is still as shitty as before. So all this time and focus and her character moved forward about two centimeters.

But hey, we very likely will get a new couple out of this, and that is all that counts, right...?

Indeed. “Good things happen to shitty people for no good reason” is the ultimate in realism.

And honestly, we should be grateful for that. Living in a meritocracy sounds great on paper, but life needs its share of injustice and randomness.

Where did you read that Shiho actually feels bad for Yori? I did not get that, her line that there is not really a reason to hate her anymore makes me assume the opposite, actually. What specific details are you basing that on? I'm curious.

Her apologetic look on page 16.

I’ll comment on this since you’ve repeated it a few times and I'm a bit confused by it, so maybe you could clarify.

That Shiho said "As things are now, there is no real reason to resent her" (so she still thinks her hate was justified back when Aki did not reciprocate her feelings) shows she is still as shitty as before.

In the full quote you're cutting off she says “As far as she’s (Yori's) concerned, it was more me venting my frustrations (out on her), than anything, the way things are now, there’s no reason to resent her." What she actually says to Himari is not a statement justifying her behavior. This is a statement acknowledging that, in the end, Yori did nothing wrong and it was only Shiho deflecting from her issues with Aki. Shiho is the one doing the action in that sentence, grammatically. She is assigning herself blame and agency. That whole brief scene before the meet-up with Yori was Shiho recognizing and feeling guilty for how she treated Yori, obviously in her own way.

In fact, that recognized culpability is the reason she agrees to Himari’s request at all. It’s only after she verbally reacts and reacts through facial expressions, in a way clearly expressing regret, that she then agrees to have the uncomfortable conversation with Yori. She didn’t just flippantly agree to the meeting, as you've suggested previously. She clearly thought about it, as Himari laid out the request.

Then in the meeting, Shiho says " I’m sorry. To be honest with you, I got wrapped up in my own selfish emotions, I’ll try not to act weirdly towards you from now on.” Here, again she continues the trend of acknowledging her behavior towards Yori. There's nothing in the scene that hints at insincerity, actually the opposite. Her facial expressions are typical manga-visual-language often used to communicate regret, sincerity and remorse.

Whatever your opinion of Shiho, I’m not sure how you could read those scenes and come away believing she thinks she did nothing wrong, has no regrets, didn't mean it, or only agreed to meet Yori because she was asked and nothing more. Without being asked she might have avoided the conversation because she has an avoidant personality, but that doesn't mean she's not sincere here.

Lastly, the "unknowingly the cause of all this" thing was obviously a tongue-in-cheek joke and played as such. She is the "cause" but not the culprit.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 4:16PM

Indeed. “Good things happen to shitty people for no good reason” is the ultimate in realism.

And honestly, we should be grateful for that. Living in a meritocracy sounds great on paper, but life needs its share of injustice and randomness.

It's no surprise that a defense of the writing in this particular manga would lead to paens to an unjust universe.

At this point some o' y'all are just moving goalposts. Like, I get it, you hate Shiho and nothing she can do or say will ever satisfy you unless she straight-up turns into a completely different character. And that's your prerogative.

But don't act like she's still behaving like she did back when she was introduced or pretend her acknowledging her bitchy behavior (which really, in the end, is just what it was, nothing more) and apologizing didn't happen just because you disagree with her existence period.

Because clearly, your "objective literary analysis" is more tinged by personal views than y'all think it is and at this point it really shows.

At this point some o' y'all are just moving goalposts. Like, I get it, you hate Shiho and nothing she can do or say will ever satisfy you unless she straight-up turns into a completely different character. And that's your prerogative.

But don't act like she's still behaving like she did back when she was introduced or pretend her acknowledging her bitchy behavior (which really, in the end, is just what it was, nothing more) and apologizing didn't happen just because you disagree with her existence period.

Because clearly, your "objective literary analysis" is more tinged by personal views than y'all think it is and at this point it really shows.

Once again, for many of us the issue is not "liking or not liking Shiho" as an imaginary person--it's the quality of the writing, and what the author's conception of the character has done to the overall series. Shiho's actions and her motivation (which, as you rightly say, amounts to nothing more than "bitchy behavior by a un-self-aware bitchy person") simply are not commensurate with the amount of narrative time and attention she has been given. There's been very little mystery or complexity about her character--just a long, drawn-out process by which the other characters belatedly come to realize what has been obvious to readers all along. (In fact, Yori still has no clue to what the whole mess was about.)

That "you just hate Shiho" gambit is long past its expiration date.

At this point some o' y'all are just moving goalposts. Like, I get it, you hate Shiho and nothing she can do or say will ever satisfy you unless she straight-up turns into a completely different character. And that's your prerogative.

But don't act like she's still behaving like she did back when she was introduced or pretend her acknowledging her bitchy behavior (which really, in the end, is just what it was, nothing more) and apologizing didn't happen just because you disagree with her existence period.

Because clearly, your "objective literary analysis" is more tinged by personal views than y'all think it is and at this point it really shows.

Once again, for many of us the issue is not "liking or not liking Shiho" as an imaginary person--it's the quality of the writing, and what the author's conception of the character has done to the overall series.

Yeah you keep saying that but I don't really buy it. That's what I mean with my last sentence there: This isn't about quality at all, Shiho is a well-written character and the series as a whole is no worse off for having her in it than any other relationship drama series.
Indeed one could very well argue that the whole plot around her is what kept it going bc if all that came after Yori and Hima getting together was more YoriHima fluff then I daresay this series would've been concluded by now.

But bc you (generic you) think Shiho is a bad character and a detriment to the series it must be so, bc you're a paragon of literary analysis and you can do no wrong or smth. I'm being a tad facetious but that's how it comes across when you keep harping on about Shiho like she's exactly the same as back at her introduction

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 4:42PM

At this point some o' y'all are just moving goalposts. Like, I get it, you hate Shiho and nothing she can do or say will ever satisfy you unless she straight-up turns into a completely different character. And that's your prerogative.

But don't act like she's still behaving like she did back when she was introduced or pretend her acknowledging her bitchy behavior (which really, in the end, is just what it was, nothing more) and apologizing didn't happen just because you disagree with her existence period.

Because clearly, your "objective literary analysis" is more tinged by personal views than y'all think it is and at this point it really shows.

Once again, for many of us the issue is not "liking or not liking Shiho" as an imaginary person--it's the quality of the writing, and what the author's conception of the character has done to the overall series.

Yeah you keep saying that but I don't really buy it.

OK, if that's how arguments work, then I think you're lying when you say that you think the series is well-written.

At this point some o' y'all are just moving goalposts. Like, I get it, you hate Shiho and nothing she can do or say will ever satisfy you unless she straight-up turns into a completely different character. And that's your prerogative.

But don't act like she's still behaving like she did back when she was introduced or pretend her acknowledging her bitchy behavior (which really, in the end, is just what it was, nothing more) and apologizing didn't happen just because you disagree with her existence period.

Because clearly, your "objective literary analysis" is more tinged by personal views than y'all think it is and at this point it really shows.

Once again, for many of us the issue is not "liking or not liking Shiho" as an imaginary person--it's the quality of the writing, and what the author's conception of the character has done to the overall series.

Yeah you keep saying that but I don't really buy it.

OK, if that's how arguments work, then I think you're lying when you say that you think the series is well-written.

I'm not here to start a debate club with you, I'm just saying for all your going on about quality of writing (which is a pretty subjective thing to begin with), I haven't really seen any arguments for that other than "i don't enjoy how she's written, therefore it's bad writing" while there's at least some tangible evidence to the contrary like the manga's continuing serialization.

Which is fine in itself btw, when I say i think Shiho is well-written and good for the series, then that's also just my personal opinion, but then you could just say it like that instead of insisting your opinion is somehow the pinnacle of literary analysis.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 5:22PM

Most of you guys are arguing and here i am just enjoying the manga peacefully

Right? Everyone's debating the good and the bad of Shiho's character on the plot, and I'm just enjoying Yori/Shiho awkwardly apologizing/clearing things up, Yori trusting Hima to keep being Shiho's band manager, Hima helping Shiho try to text Aki, and what seems to be the start of Shiho/Aki proper. Why argue anything? Just enjoy this relatively drama free chapter where people communicated and cleared the air with each other lol.

I'm not here to start a debate club with you, I'm just saying for all your going on about quality of writing (which is a pretty subjective thing to begin with), I haven't really seen any arguments for that other than "i don't enjoy how she's written, therefore it's bad writing"

That is quite false, (or else you just haven't been paying attention). As has been mentioned several times before, Dynasty reader feihong has written two longish posts laying out the detailed case against how the character of Shiho has been handled in this story from the point of view of character development and the narrative relation of that character to other characters.

Despite your sneering, no one has claimed to be making the "pinnacle of literary analysis," just that many of the objections to this story are literary rather than simply a visceral dislike of an imaginary person.

Most of you guys are arguing and here i am just enjoying the manga peacefully

Right? Everyone's debating the good and the bad of Shiho's character on the plot, and I'm just enjoying Yori/Shiho awkwardly apologizing/clearing things up, Yori trusting Hima to keep being Shiho's band manager, Hima helping Shiho try to text Aki, and what seems to be the start of Shiho/Aki proper. Why argue anything? Just enjoy this relatively drama free chapter where people communicated and cleared the air with each other lol.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to a potential Shiho/Yori team up based on what Yori said during their conversation. Big turn of events when Shiho has to ask Yori for help/advice--especially musically. Plus next chapter comes out near Christmas. And it's mostly the same comments cut and paste every chapter, so that's whatever. Not the largest deal, anyway.

last edited at Nov 19, 2023 6:01PM