before they get to the market, benika smells something. it's hard to tell if it's really coming from the market or from the refugees' fire. somehow it looks to me like it's coming from the fire. but in reality, burning meat doesn't smell like BBQ... so it's hard to tell what was being burned.
i don't think piled up skulls have to mean something bad per se. in some countries, there are bone houses where skulls and bones are piled up to the roof. and that's not a sign of poverty or anything. it's usually the case when you don't have enough space in the cemetery, e.g. in a mountain village or something like that. and since the refugees don't have much space anyway, they don't "waste" it with (big) cemeteries. that's also a reason why i think that part of the fuel will be human remains, and not just in the "prison" from the vigilante force....
and the skulls are housed here in something like bone houses, which are simply open (building materials are rare?), and they might even have written down the names, which is not done in every bone house. on the contrary, you see it rather rarely, because in a bone house there are usually so many bones that the space on the walls is not enough to write down the names, usually the names are somewhere in the church books. all in all, the piled up skulls don't have to be an malicious sign. the same goes for the possibility that they use human remains as fuel. it can all just be a sign of how bad the refugees' circumstances are...

If anything, it looked more like a snake to me.

i agree. a lightning bolt is rather not drawn like this.

First off, You go Benika!! I disagree, she was brave and shown good reflexes...the guy stabbed someone and said person that got stabbed almost died...the person she throw her hot soup on was on his 3rd offense...I would scold her if the guy was just stealing something but he almost killed someone after-all.

The problems:
The refugees have to keep order themselves and make sure other refugees do not kill, steal, R@pe each other and other horrible things...the government is basically telling them to fk off and are not willing to help keep order
[Look at the guys/guards with the guns...they are not there to keep order...they are there to strike fear and kill anyone willing to cause a riot/rebellion....]

Damn not even any help in burying the dead bodies so have to burn them, keeping the troublemaker's skulls on display and their names + crimes written down probably helps to warn people not to do crimes/cause trouble...it sad since dozen of those deaths could have been prevented if the government wasn't fking scummy group not even willing to help the people they are currently exploiting...

The Refugee order group/Vigilante group basically has to make firm rules and probably do not have the time + manpower/people to keep people locked up in cages (They are not proper steel cages I bet) for more than a few days with a clear warning they will be punish if they cause trouble again....
Death happens if:
R@pe/Murder/Medical fraud/Human trafficking and etc....seems reasonable choice to kill them since the police/government is not going to help keep the order. I don't like it but it the only logical choice the Vigilante group can make, reward for helping to keep order and punishment+possible death for risking doing illegal morally wrong stuff.

They are not professionally trained and equipped to be keep offender prison(cages) for a long time and they can't risk letting a murder/R@pist/Human kidnapper/trafficker loose since they can hurt other people in their community...they are living hard lives already...they don't want the community to be in fear/stress from potential criminals willing to hurt them (May 25% of those criminals forced to commit those acts rest in peace...)

It funny though since if you throw them into jail/prison you could probably make some excuse to make them do cheap hard labor for 1-2 dollars per hours just like the [US] lol....it fked up since like 20% of the people in prison IRL are pretty innocent people 0_0 [+ bonus scummy point for said Government not wanting to pay compensation money when it proven they are innocent too].....guess they just don't want to deal with the refugees at all....

Heck! We humans can 'Technically' solve world hunger right now if we put enough time, effort and money into that problem IRL.... but world hunger doesn't get solves due to dozen of factors like corruption/people not caring/rich people with the power to change things not wanting to since they do not get profits creating a better system and etc... to solve world hunger. People getting exploit and world hunger continuing is much more likely to happen...

I am leaning more toward the Priest side right now...I still want the hitmen leader and him (Archbishop) to team up to combine their methods and create a better way to help the Refugees since they both want to help the refugee get a chance at a better life but it clear the Hitmen lady boss hopes+plans to give better rights to the refugees are going to fking take like 30-50 years to see any visible effects assuming she made some deal with some people in the government...
But then that would still mean a lot of refugees suffer and possibly even their children suffer too...Drastic actions might be needed...even if I do not enjoy/like the idea of lot of death happening to those refugees as a result...A riot/rebellion will sadly need to happen...I just hope not too many innocent people get killed in the crossfire...

Basically the [Government] is like a (black company/exploitative) abusing their workers, just seeing them as tools for cheap labor and probably has the idea that they can just fired [Kill] a few of them then hire new worker(new refugees) to replace them....sure there will news articles and news report + protests talking about trying to get better rights for the worker (Refugees) but it will only have a small effect....it no wonder the Refugee looks at the ArchBishop as a saint since he truly wants to help them and they see him as the hope (Union or some other group that help workers) to get out their suffering and abuse...

It really ironically...A truly smart black exploitative company can abuse their workers just enough and squeeze them just enough but give them enough pay/rewards to feel like they are not being totally abused [Trick them into thinking it will be worth it]...too bad the Government(exploitative Black company) is too greedy, short-sighted and corrupted to not realize their way of treating their workers(Refugees) is basically a time-bomb waiting to explode right under their @sses...

last edited at Jul 16, 2023 7:04PM

The ones actually morally in the wrong here are the government, not the refugee vigilantes, for explicitly excluding refugees from the justice system. That's a fascist policy at work.

fair enough though I would say that if you're a willing participant in fascist policy, in this case being part of the vigilante group then you're not causing the problem but you are helping continue it.

So I agree with you that the government is ultimately responsible for creating this situation but the vigilante group and its members have some amount responsibility in perpetrating it. Even if they themselves believe they are doing a good thing by getting rid of the "undesirables" given that even in a functioning judicial system innocent people can be punished by faulty processes, and in a vigilante situation like this one, I would be surprised if even half the people they end up executing are actually responsible for the things they get accused of.

though of course that metaphorical blood while on the vigilante's hands is also on the hands of the ministers responsible for creating this situation to begin with.

I will say as heavy as the discussions are getting for this series I am enjoying it, especially given that I wouldn't have expected this to go from ninja bullshit to the extremely fraught reality that many refugees end up in.

It’s easy to say that someone is “helping continue” a bad policy when one is not currently stuck in that person’s situation. In this case, it is necessary for the refugees to maintain a form of law and order, because without it, their current way of life would become chaotic and lack what little safety they gained when they fled their old country. Ordinarily, said safety would ideally come from their new government, but the powers that be have abandoned them, and the vigilante group is perhaps the only thing preventing their community from becoming overwhelmed with crime and inevitability turning against itself.

I do agree with you on liking the series, though.

last edited at Jul 16, 2023 8:43PM

From comedy back to drama

From comedy back to drama

From comedy back to drama

a bit late to the discussion but I think the scene with the paramilitary police force also has a really important meta role in forcing the reader to critique policing. It's an extremely common trope in manga to have the protagonist catch a criminal while they run away from the scene of the crime, only to hand them off to a clean, sanitized police force and never see or think about them again. Once the police leave both the character and reader are free to forget and stop caring about what happens next.

Here Benika does just that, but instead of the "officers" taking the guy off the page forever, Benika is brought to the area where the criminals are held, and seeing the cages, people sitting with bags over their heads, and the pile of skulls, those cleanly smiling vigalantes are no longer quite so sanitized, especially when she finds out what they actually do to a lot of the people here. The fire she's invited to warm herself by is quite literally a pyre for burning the bodies of criminals.

Regardless of if you think the vigilantes are in the right or not, the way this entire narrative was framed, both for Benika and the readers by extension, does a great job at forcing us to actually confront the realities of policing, and putting task of enforcing rule of law into a handful of armed people.

Feels rather like Benika will start championing the refugee cause too ...

Yeah, definitely. Hibai thinks she's scaring Benika off, but I guarantee she'll come out of this far more sympathetic to the refugees' situation and Rose's struggles in particular.

I think the real question here is, will Hibai and Gina end up wanting to help Rose and Benika? They seem set up to be a personal bridge between the two organizations and our protagonists.

I'm also interested to see whether the organization's reconcile. I didn't expect so, but both sides have been getting development to be more gray than they first appeared. (Babylon is working to protect the refugees by killing those who would profit off their plight, while the Church is fomenting armed attacks and riots)

Through the power of Benikas' expanded knowledge and sympathy,Rose will then have the power needed to carve a path for each other once Benika finds out the truth.

But then Rose will need a lot more help in order to carve that path big enough to get all the refugees out of their dead end lives due to Benikas' insistence.

Most interesting indeed.

Or Benika will get far beyond what would even be called the reality of refugees.

Straight up Hell itself,in post modern Japan no less.

This ain't the status quo that should be maintained nor one that should be left to somehow get better.

This amount of shell shock is going to cement Benika onto Rose,even when Rose reveals the truth,because there's no way she wouldn't understand how bad it trully is.

Well, this suddenly got magnitudes more dystopian. Now I can see why the priest is so eager for revolution.

Straight up Hell itself,in post modern Japan no less.

Do we have clear indicators that this country is in fact Japan? I was getting the sense that it was supposed to be some other vague country.

The ones actually morally in the wrong here are the government, not the refugee vigilantes, for explicitly excluding refugees from the justice system. That's a fascist policy at work.

fair enough though I would say that if you're a willing participant in fascist policy, in this case being part of the vigilante group then you're not causing the problem but you are helping continue it.

So what do you expect them to do? They've already explained what happens if they do try to go against that policy and send their criminals to the proper justice system. Getting them just shipped back to you, free to continue what they were doing before, is not a solution. They have to keep order somehow, and this is the best they can do with the resources they actually have.

The ones actually morally in the wrong here are the government, not the refugee vigilantes, for explicitly excluding refugees from the justice system. That's a fascist policy at work.

fair enough though I would say that if you're a willing participant in fascist policy, in this case being part of the vigilante group then you're not causing the problem but you are helping continue it.

So what do you expect them to do? They've already explained what happens if they do try to go against that policy and send their criminals to the proper justice system. Getting them just shipped back to you, free to continue what they were doing before, is not a solution. They have to keep order somehow, and this is the best they can do with the resources they actually have.

The cruelty is the point. It's a self-sustaining system, built to keep refugees living in fear and subservience. Their live are worth far less than others, and they know it. "Keep the system of oppression going, or it will go worse for you."

So like, to those who are arguing that being forced into keeping a system of oppression going under threat of oppression completely absolves you of guilt.

Look at Rose, who is an assassin who works for a greater system, who might well be an assassin because she has no real other choice if she wants to live a good or even decent life.

Rose isn't guiltless and neither does she act guiltless, literally the entire reason this story is happening is because she wants to quit because she hates doing this job. She goes to confess her sins every chance she gets. And yes as a refugee as someone who went through a war that displaced her Rose is by necessity no longer working with the "moral absolutism" we who are living in comfort can use. But like killing is still bad in her mind, she does it because she has no other choice but that doesn't mean she not responsible for her actions, that doesn't mean she doesn't feel the guilt of being a killer.

None of my arguments are about irreversibly condemning these people for doing things that would be unimaginable if they lived a stable life. I'm looking at the vigilante group, the effective police force, the people in this refugee community who have been given the monopoly on violence and see them clearly disappointed they can't pin a severe enough crime on the guy Benika caught to kill him over it, I see them summing up the crimes that are worthy of executing people over and I see human trafficking the biggest joke of a crime in the world if you're dealing with refugees, a crime that regularly gets pinned on people who do so much as give a refugee in need some water to drink. And like, I don't trust that these people are actually keeping this community safe or mean to. And for me then to say "these people have blood on their hands" should not be controversial like, am I meant to be more sympathetic to the refugees who police and kill their own people or should I be sympathetic to the refugees who are getting beaten and executed by their own.

And I'd have to think on this more to put forward a more well-thought out argument but. I put some amount of responsibility on the vigilante group because they are ultimately still beating down.

last edited at Jul 17, 2023 11:04AM

Straight up Hell itself,in post modern Japan no less.

Do we have clear indicators that this country is in fact Japan? I was getting the sense that it was supposed to be some other vague country.

It hasn't been outright stated, but it seems almost certain this is near-future japan. First off benika and her dad having japanese names, and the refugees adopting japanese names too (Rose Madder Shinegawa) or whatever her full alias was. Second are the local/express train lines, the japanese style convenience stores, and some japanese text on background signs and whatnot. Then you have the "refugee sushi" and "chili+fish sauce soup" which are all made from commonly available japanese staple foods which would likely be given either as rations or bought easily at a discount.

To some extent the story being told in this manga is already happening in Japan, albeit on a smaller scale with less flashy stunts. In order to keep the economy running (ie have a supply of workers to perform menial labor with low wages to prop up japanese businesses) the government has already started using work-visa programs to bring in immigrant labor, mostly from other parts of asia, and there are plenty of instances of immigrant employees trapped at their jobs with no way to leave unless they want to be deported.

And for me then to say "these people have blood on their hands" should not be controversial like, am I meant to be more sympathetic to the refugees who police and kill their own people or should I be sympathetic to the refugees who are getting beaten and executed by their own.

So if one refugee murders or rapes another, what should happen next?

I'm looking at the vigilante group, the effective police force, the people in this refugee community who have been given the monopoly on violence and see them clearly disappointed they can't pin a severe enough crime on the guy Benika caught to kill him over it

I see, so the main problem you have with them is not what they actually are, but what you are wrongly reading into their words...

Straight up Hell itself,in post modern Japan no less.

Do we have clear indicators that this country is in fact Japan? I was getting the sense that it was supposed to be some other vague country.

Same, but it does seem to have a Japan flavour, of nothing else because of the author

I think I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt that the Vigilante force....I do not read any clear obvious signs they are abusing their fellow Refugees...some of their guards/patrols people apologize to Benika (Asking if she was hurt) and thanking Benika for her aid in catching the person running away [Said person on his 3rd offense crime, this time stabbing someone. Probably his most serious offense (I can make no theory about if this person did it for greed, anger or if he is just desperate for money though)].

We see the Captain of the Vigilante force, his expression not really angry or excited to commit violence....I would say his expression would be more describe as Dead/Tired/numbed....much like the MC [Rose] in her early days before meeting Benika.

The Captain was going to give Benika money as a reward for her aid after praising her courage when she was so young (He was a tiny bit surprised to hear she not there, claiming she must be a new refugee). He shown no signs of abusing people or angry or disappointment at not being able to kill people...just tired, numbed and annoyed/deadpan expression. His system of giving money to people willing to help shown he is not willing to be stingy with money to help keep the order in his community...

It could be possible the Captain and other people in the Vigilante force 'could/maybe' be actually secretly evil people that enjoy abusing their fellow refugee like [Bunny claims or fears], enjoying their tiny position of power to decide the fate of their fellow refugees...but well I kind doubt it and think Bunny is just expecting the worse. [Mostly because I think the ArchBishop would be stupid not to have them join his side already or at least have sleeper agents hiding just in case to takeover. Priest leader probably wants to help keep refugees safe so I hope he has people inside Vigilante force since he already has refugees training in the form of protest formation (Hitmen leader notice this) XD]

Like I said...it possible (low chance maybe?) the vigilante force might be corrupted too like the government...but is also possible that the Vigilante force exist just to prevent things from getting worse in their community. It could be possible the Captain is the most amazing actor in existence and he smiles cruelly while beating up these so-called criminals when the community is not watching him lol but I want to give him the benefit of the doubt that he hopefully does not XD

I like to believe he is doing his job as the Captain of the Vigilante force not because he enjoys abusing or killing his fellow refugee/people but because he wants to help to keep the order in his community... [Though people in the Vigilante force probably get a decent job pay though XD]. His expression tells me that he is just tired and numbed but the idea of killing his fellows Refugees will be needed to happen or else the community will fall apart.

Basically trapped between an horrible system vs. Chaotic hell where the community of innocent refugee can get hurt from not removing murders/R@pists.

Captain of the Vigilante force dialog:

"Nope, we can't look after him long, so..." Him looking at his paper for info on the captured guy. "Sigh...A stabbing on his third offense?"

Him point toward the pile of skulls between the 4 pillars with probably names+crimes written down. They can't look after the stabber for long [meaning the stabber on his 3rd offense will likely be freed to go back to the community after maybe 2-3 days after a stern warning that he be punished if he goes crosses the line.]

"He's lucky his victim survived." The captain then describing crimes of murder/R@pe/Medical fraud/human trafficking and etc. "if it was fatal, he be joining them"

I suspect the captain is informing the new girl (Benika) of the rules of what not to do...or he just tired and numbed not really caring that he probably gave the new refugee some fear/tiny bit of trauma about what happen to those who cross the line [He probably thinks he is just giving the new Refugee girl a reality check of her new life and basically telling her to toughen up].

The captain does not shows any disappointment at not being able to kill the captured guy (saying words about how the guys is better off dead and etc.) or anger at the captured...but just annoyed tired disappointed that the guy stabbed someone since it means he probably has to tell one of his people to keep watch over the guy when he goes free just in case.

The captain explaining why they can't give him to police and how the police will just toss him back to them (to the police stabbing someone is apparently not serious...)

Captain explaining that the police just see the community as a holding pen. "So we don't have the leeway to show mercy."

"They only hand us fuel and tell us to clean up after ourselves." Benika shocked words of 'Clean up?'

"Just like the police, the crematorium [Place where cremation of the dead] won't take them either." Captain explaining. "So we demand fuel, use some for the burnings, then ration out the rest."

--->> (My theory: They put the skulls of the people who cross the lines on display with this names+ crimes written to Deter/discourage/warn people not to cause trouble or commit crimes that cross the line--> They do not have the time and energy + possible the space to burn the body and make funeral graves for these dead people...it sad they the vigilante force probably thinks they are at least using the skulls of the offenders to good use...)

Cue Benika staring into the fire in shock

"It only fair when they force us to handle it on our own, right?"

End of chapter.

We see people with guns (These are not refugees but guards probably hired by the Government to make sure Refugee do not riot/revolt. Refugee are not allowed guns probably and the government makes sure to check any shipment for any guns=do not want Refugee to have guns.)

A few guard dogs
People captured/in temporary prison area are in handcuff + GagMask. A few cages holding a few people

The Vigilante force are shown guarding them holding Batons, the masks and handcuffs are to make it easier to guard them and for them not to escape...probably helps that not being able to see with the mask on is a tiny form of punishment too. They will probably stay like that for at least a few hours before getting put into a free cage [how many cages do they have?? Are there limited cages and that why some of them not in cages yet???]

I mean 15-20% of the captured people probably only commit their crimes due to being poor and desperate...but the 70-75% of them could be due to aggressive personality, envy and greedy+Anger responsible for their actions (I do not believe they all innocent people...but a few of them probably are though...).

I guess the Vigilante force will try to talk to these capture people to get their reasoning and account of what happened to attempt to make sure these incidents do not happen again...possibly warn them not to do it again or they will face a harsher punishment + possible death if they cross the line.

They have to be firm and make sure to let potentially danger people run free in their community...a sweet warm heart-to-heart talk to these captured people isn't going to fix things 99% of the time sadly..they are struck in a hard place vs. chaotic hell thanks to the Government not giving a Sh*t. They need someone to either give them better solutions or hope the government finally stops being lazy and help them keep the order (Access to jail/prison for weeks to months=not needing to resort to killing)

last edited at Jul 17, 2023 10:20PM

Ah. Now it makes sense ... maybe? Kind of?
... anyway. There's a connection there now.

Also anyone still want to defend Babylon?
... and wasn't that just supposed to be a made up nickname for the organization? ^^;

last edited at Jul 18, 2023 12:46PM

I was not expecting deep social commentary about the realities of capitalism in muah romantic dark comedy about a lesbian hitman - though maybe I should've.

And this is where it finally ties into Rose's job.

what they had before was worse but that doesnt mean this is best

Misery builds caracther!

On the vigilante force I'm somewhere in between people's positions about them. I don't think they're fascist, in the sense that they don't seem to be oppressing the general population or enforcing any broader regime or following any big leader or anything. And I do acknowledge the difficulty of their situation, which is such that many well-meaning people could feel that they have no alternative, and it's plausible that in that situation practical people with good intentions could end up doing that.

That said, I don't think that is actually the only alternative. They might be reasonable in thinking that it is, but they are wrong. There seem to be quite a few actually existing groups who are poor and oppressed, who nonetheless manage to emphasize community solidarity, restorative justice and stuff instead of fear and brutal punishment. Since it actually happens, I presume it is possible. But it's hard, and I will acknowledge that it seems to be much more common among indigenous groups with already tight-knit society, like the Zapatistas; it would be very hard for a fractured bunch of refugees.

Although Babylon's theoretical motives are kind of positive, my understanding is that that is not who they have been killing. To the contrary, they have been attempting to keep things calm so that change can (in theory) happen naturally in the longer term, by killing refugee leaders who agitate too much.

You said this in two different comments, but where did you get that idea?

I suppose it's open to SOME interpretation, but I got it from this line:
"Our influence exists only because we sow accidents among the refugees, namely those who threaten the peace or otherwise prove detrimental to the administration"
"Even if it means condemning them to oppression and exploitation?"
"They will not remain outsiders forever"

That kind of sounds to me like what I was talking about.

Right, yeah, that's what I thought, but reading it again is starker. The organization is definitely a force for the status quo, and huge assholes, either way. They clearly don't have a problem with murder and seem to believe in some long-term assimilation or something. I mostly got the positive part from how the Bishop states that they both started with the hope of helping the refugees, but disagreed over methods. So I assumed that was still the goal.

I really don't understand why campaigning for change, but not through violence is ever considered being "a force for the status quo", which is 100% why I can't agree with any of you.

Well, except we have no evidence that they campaign for change. To the contrary, their stance seems to be that if nobody does anything, change will eventually happen by itself in some organic way, and so the only important thing is to keep the powder keg from blowing up in the mean time. This seems delusional under the circumstances--many immigrant refugee populations do assimilate in a generation or two, but not if they're stuck in an apartheid situation with no opportunities to advance their status or integrate into the broader society.